The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I am thinking that this re-build the Redskins are doing has a lot of similarities to the rebuild project started by Marty Schottenheimer in 2001.

The 1999 and 2000 teams had worn out Snyder's patience. They went to the playoffs in 99 but the "stars" signed by the team didn't pan out and they definitely appeared to be facing the wrong direction in 2000. Snyder wanted someone who could build a winner so he brought in coach Marty Schottenheimer who'd taken perennial losers Kansas City and Cleveland to AFC title games. Too bad that at this point in his ownership Dan Snyder didn't have the patience to see it through.

Schottenheimer had final say on player personnel but his front office included John Schneider (now Seahawks GM), Pepper Rogers (eccentric but respected football man) and Bobby Mitchell (Hall of Fame WR). They decided to cast their lot with Jeff George as the quarterback and let Brad Johnson walk. This was a rather big blunder seeing as George was awful and Checkdown Charlie thrived in Tampa Bay, going to the Pro-Bowl for the second time in 2002. This is not unlike the mistake Shanahan made in acquiring McNabb.

The Schottenheimer administration sought to bring in high character guys and eliminate the prima donnas. (Same thing Shanny is doing now.) By bringing in these vets you could instill a positive attitude in the locker room. A team full of team oriented players who bought into the coach and into the coach's philosophy. It was the first part of a three year plan:

Year One- Gain cap flexibility by releasing or not re-signing aging and prima donna players. Bring in team first, high character guys.

Year Two- Use new cap space to build around young stars like Stephen Davis (27), Chris Samuels (24), Jon Jansen (25), LaVar Arrington (23), Champ Bailey (23) and Fred Smoot (22). Bring in more rookies and start making a push towards the Super Bowl.

Year Three- Continuing philosophy, become a serious contender. Top echelon of the NFL.

We essentially saw Schottenheimer do the very same thing in San Diego. They fired him in 2006 but in the 9 years since he was hired in SD they went to the playoffs 5 times and have been an elite team. Sure, he had a hiccup in 2003 where the team went 4-12 (which led to the Phillip Rivers pick) and he led Drew Brees walk for nothing, but I don't think he can be blamed for that. Even according to Brees' autobiography people were skeptical that he'd ever even be able to play again. His arm was a total mess, and it was practically a miracle of science that he healed so completely.

Unfortunately Dan Snyder lacked the patience to see this plan through and hired Steve Spurrier to coach his shiny new toy. The Spurrier era was a disaster, even Joe Gibbs couldn't bring respectability back to Washington, Jim Zorn was another disaster and now we come practically full circle with Mike Shanahan. An older coach, who actually realizes the virtue of rebuilding.

IMO, he wasted most of 2010 because he wanted to "win now" but he was smart enough to refocus in 2011. He's gotten rid of Albert Haynesworth and Donovan McNabb. He's brought in only high character guys and dumped the prima donnas. He's got a young core with Trent Williams (23), Brian Orakpo (25), DeAngelo Hall (27) and LaRon Landry (27) and hopefully we'll be able to add Kerrigan and Jenkins to that list. He's brought in some 30 or under veterans who are team first and buy into the philosophy. Guys like Jammal Brown (30, who turned down some LT jobs to re-sign), Barry Cofield (27), and Tim Hightower (25).

In fact, there are only five players on the Redskins roster who are 31 or older:

P Sav Rocca (just a punter, who cares?)
LB London Fletcher (ultimate team first guy, needed veteran presence in the locker room)
FB Mike Sellers (probably will get cut anyway)
G/T Artis Hicks (backup lineman providing interior depth)
WR Santana Moss (team first guy, #1 WR, veteran route runner)

Shanahan also has a history of using late round picks (even ones he didn't draft) if they fit the system and a team need. Tom Nalen was a starter at center in Shanny's first year after being a seventh round draft pick of the previous regime who didn't play much his rookie season. Like Jabar Gaffney, Shanahan brought in career backup Eddie McCaffrey who ended up becoming a big piece of their offense. He brought in 6th round pick Terrell Davis and undrafted WR Rod Smith. He took a Broncos team with a fair amount of success, but no hardware to three straight playoff appearances and two straight Super Bowl wins.

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I don't expect the Redskins to be that good this season. I would guess they surprise a few people at 7-9 or 8-8 but miss the playoffs. What I DO expect though is that we'll come out of this season with a couple "diamonds in the rough", a solid core for 2012 and some cap space.

We're finally pointed in the right direction.

Great post SF55

We are very fortunate to have Bruce & Mike in charge and IMO Mike was looking at this franchise and planning what to do for a long time BEFORE he came here

He knew what he wanted to do offensively and defensively and who he was going to bring in to be the OC and DC

unlike anything that has happened on and off the field here with previous 'management', Mike & Bruce know what they are doing and it began with a 'plan' and a firm agreement from Snyder that he would both support the 'plan' and STAY OUT OF THE WAY The FO might have made some mistakes but they stayed commited to the plan Mike envisioned all those months BEFORE he came here
This is one very determined HC

Marty might have gotten things done here - he did get things moving in the right direction but with Snyder's hand still in control Marty might have changed things around here but he didn't and now we'll never know for sure

We do know that Mike will have a consistently competitive product on the field each and every week and that will happen soon

THESE GUYS ARE GOOD

I think it is an excellent post.

I do disagree with this:

IMO, he wasted most of 2010 because he wanted to "win now" but he was smart enough to refocus in 2011.

If he was in a win now mode, he would have signed old guys like Faneca as a stop gap for O line or Karlos Dansby, a proven ILB for his new 3-4 defense.

Sure he traded for McNabb, but McNabb trade was not a win now, but getting a piece of the puzzle that would have us ready to win by year three - He was available and at the time, seemed like the right fit for this O.

All of the moves that ShanAllen made in the off-season point to a lets win tomorrow - The Biggest Being the Switch to the 3-4 defense..

It seems that Mike's goal for last season was to keep us competitive by signing low cost vets while they geared up for the free agent market in 2011. The draft and free agent market in 2011 showed that Mike never was and is not in a win now mode. That comes from the media and Mike feeding the media that we can win now . Mike's actions speak MUCH louder than his words when he speaks to the press.

Despite, my disagreement on that issue - as I said above, your post is excellent - thanks for taking the time to write it.

You have to be "win now" in this league; it's the only way to get 100% from your players.

If you tell your players "this isn't going to be our year, but next year... " you have created a culture that tolerates losing. Once you've rung that bell, it's hard to unring it.

Bob 0119 wrote:You have to be "win now" in this league; it's the only way to get 100% from your players.

If you tell your players "this isn't going to be our year, but next year... " you have created a culture that tolerates losing. Once you've rung that bell, it's hard to unring it.

You don't tell your players "this isn't going to be our year."
To your players, you say what all coaches say, if we execute our game plan, we can beat anybody. Often well prepared, inferior talented teams beat better teams. Often teams learning new offenses and defenses don't execute the game plan well and lose close games even though they are playing their hearts out.

"Win Now" means a coach is going to load up with talent, usually regardless of the costs (trades or contracts). "Win Now" is a media concept not something conveyed to players. Just because a coach doesn't load up doesn't mean that he feels he doesn't have any chance to win - this isn't Major League Baseball.

To the media and fans, Shanny is saying, this thing will take 2-3 years and sometimes he says 3-5 years. He is not saying that it is impossible to win in 2 years, he is saying that the foundation for long term success will be achieved in 3 years.

So, once again, look at Shanny's personnel actions in the off season of 2010. Was he loading up to win that season or adding pieces, McNabb and Brown who were expected to be here at least three years. A signing of Fanaca at guard would have been a win now signing because he (since retired) clearly had maybe one season left. Dansby cost too much - but in a win now, they are worth it (See Eagles). Again, the move to the 3-4 was a long term decision.

I really am not very good at understanding what the coaches are really saying and I have LITTLE respect for the media

I see the progress with the way the FO is putting the pieces together here

we have made some mistakes - this happens

we were NOT a good team in any way, despite what the stats showed - statistics can show many things, a lot of them are misleading


This FO has a plan and this franchise is headed in a good direction

Not just a media concept Red, I want to "win now" my damn self!

I'm dying to pull even with the fudgepackers, and really wanna catch up to those bamaz from tx

langleyparkjoe wrote:Not just a media concept Red, I want to "win now" my damn self!

I'm dying to pull even with the fudgepackers, and really wanna catch up to those bamaz from tx

Pardon my grave omission, but of course, you are right. Fans came up with win now before there was any media.

Marty Schittenheimer was/is a moron. Don't you remember the "blindfolded monkey throwing darts at a playbook another monkey drew up earlier that day" playcalling??? He thought Jimmy Raye was the way to go at OC and wanted to bring him back. That alone was proof of his incompetence.

Beyond that, he has no qualifications as a GM. The only reason he was successful in San Diego was because they have an outstanding GM who loaded his team with a sick, sick amount of talent, including two elite franchise quarterbacks. That is just ridiculous.
And even with arguably the most talented squad in the league, his true colors as a choke artist shone through again and again.


Shanahan, on the other hand, served as the de facto GM in Denver. He did some great things in that capacity, and some ill-conceived things that didn't work out, but all in all his teams had only 2 seasons with a losing record out of 14 years.

People say "but he only ever won Superbowls with Elway; he never got back there without Elway". Well, first of all, Marty had Drew Brees and Philip Rivers and did not win a single playoff game--- in fact, the last 5 times in a row his team made the playoffs, they did not win a single playoff game.
Additionally, after Elway retired, Shanahan never again had a franchise-quality QB. This may be in part because his teams were never bad enough to warrant a top draft pick. Yet he squeezed 4 winning seasons, including a trip to the AFC championship game, out of Jake Plummer.


While keeping Marty would've spared us the brief Spurrier era, it may have made us miss the Gibbs 2.0 era, which, maddening as it was in many ways (see: his incomprehensible recurring refusal to bench Mark Brunell), nonetheless brought us 2 runs to the playoffs. And we would never have made it with Marty as GM.

die cowboys die wrote:Marty Schittenheimer was/is a moron. Don't you remember the "blindfolded monkey throwing darts at a playbook another monkey drew up earlier that day" playcalling??? He thought Jimmy Raye was the way to go at OC and wanted to bring him back. That alone was proof of his incompetence.

Beyond that, he has no qualifications as a GM. The only reason he was successful in San Diego was because they have an outstanding GM who loaded his team with a sick, sick amount of talent, including two elite franchise quarterbacks. That is just ridiculous.
And even with arguably the most talented squad in the league, his true colors as a choke artist shone through again and again.


Shanahan, on the other hand, served as the de facto GM in Denver. He did some great things in that capacity, and some ill-conceived things that didn't work out, but all in all his teams had only 2 seasons with a losing record out of 14 years.

People say "but he only ever won Superbowls with Elway; he never got back there without Elway". Well, first of all, Marty had Drew Brees and Philip Rivers and did not win a single playoff game--- in fact, the last 5 times in a row his team made the playoffs, they did not win a single playoff game.
Additionally, after Elway retired, Shanahan never again had a franchise-quality QB. This may be in part because his teams were never bad enough to warrant a top draft pick. Yet he squeezed 4 winning seasons, including a trip to the AFC championship game, out of Jake Plummer.


While keeping Marty would've spared us the brief Spurrier era, it may have made us miss the Gibbs 2.0 era, which, maddening as it was in many ways (see: his incomprehensible recurring refusal to bench Mark Brunell), nonetheless brought us 2 runs to the playoffs. And we would never have made it with Marty as GM.

Now THAT - was very well said!!!

It must be getting close to real football

dcd and the dead man are back and on the boards

btw - good points and well put dcd

thanks doooooooooooods

Red_One43 wrote:

die cowboys die wrote:Marty Schittenheimer was/is a moron. Don't you remember the "blindfolded monkey throwing darts at a playbook another monkey drew up earlier that day" playcalling??? He thought Jimmy Raye was the way to go at OC and wanted to bring him back. That alone was proof of his incompetence.

Beyond that, he has no qualifications as a GM. The only reason he was successful in San Diego was because they have an outstanding GM who loaded his team with a sick, sick amount of talent, including two elite franchise quarterbacks. That is just ridiculous.
And even with arguably the most talented squad in the league, his true colors as a choke artist shone through again and again.


Shanahan, on the other hand, served as the de facto GM in Denver. He did some great things in that capacity, and some ill-conceived things that didn't work out, but all in all his teams had only 2 seasons with a losing record out of 14 years.

People say "but he only ever won Superbowls with Elway; he never got back there without Elway". Well, first of all, Marty had Drew Brees and Philip Rivers and did not win a single playoff game--- in fact, the last 5 times in a row his team made the playoffs, they did not win a single playoff game.
Additionally, after Elway retired, Shanahan never again had a franchise-quality QB. This may be in part because his teams were never bad enough to warrant a top draft pick. Yet he squeezed 4 winning seasons, including a trip to the AFC championship game, out of Jake Plummer.


While keeping Marty would've spared us the brief Spurrier era, it may have made us miss the Gibbs 2.0 era, which, maddening as it was in many ways (see: his incomprehensible recurring refusal to bench Mark Brunell), nonetheless brought us 2 runs to the playoffs. And we would never have made it with Marty as GM.

Now THAT - was very well said!!!

Agree! My sentiments, exactly.

SkinsJock wrote:It must be getting close to real football

the dead man is back and on the boards

Was I ever really gone?

Dude...


You've NEVER been completely here.

Yeah, incompetence that must be why he's 200-126-1

The man is/was one of football's best coaches. He took miserable teams like Cleveland (two playoff appearances in twelve years, one was a 4 win strike shortened season) and Kansas City (one playoff appearance in 17 years, when Hank Stram was still the coach) and made them into contenders.

Fact is, he had a plan in place for the Redskins that mirrors the one we're seeing unfold in a couple ways. He'd had experience taking two moribund franchises and making them respectable (if never bringing home the Lombardi Trophy.) Schottenheimer's experience and Dan Snyder's money should have been a match made in heaven. Now Danny's a little more patient, a little less of a fan and we may yet get a second chance at seeing the team re-built properly and into a long term winner rather than banking on an above average first team to stay healthy in front of tissue thin depth as we did with Gibbs.

Skinsfan55 wrote:Yeah, incompetence that must be why he's 200-126-1

The man is/was one of football's best coaches. He took miserable teams like Cleveland (two playoff appearances in twelve years, one was a 4 win strike shortened season) and Kansas City (one playoff appearance in 17 years, when Hank Stram was still the coach.)

Fact is, he had a plan in place for the Redskins that mirrors the one we're seeing unfold in a couple ways. He'd had experience taking two moribund franchises and making them respectable (if never bringing home the Lombardi Trophy.) Schottenheimer's experience and Dan Snyder's money should have been a match made in heaven. Now Danny's a little more patient, a little less of a fan and we may yet get a second chance at seeing the team re-built properly and into a long term winner rather than banking on an above average first team to stay healthy in front of tissue thin depth as we did with Gibbs.

You are right. DcD may have went a little overboard with the incompetence label given Marty's record. You two guys have made the strongest cases I have seen on THN to kill the "Shanny couldn't win without Elway" jazz . I liked both your posts on this thread. However, you make a stronger case about Marty. Marty was "The Fumble" and "The Drive " from going to the Super Bowl. Winning one of those Super Bowls, perhaps beating Atlanta, would put him up there with Shanahan. Interesting three of key figures in those two games would go on to do good things for the Redskins - Marty, Ernest Byner - the fumbler of The Fumble and of course Shanahan. BTW, Shanny must have Mike's number as he beat him again in a 1997 divisional game when Marty was at KC.

Rebuilding is what successful teams do when they see that what has made them successful needs adjustments and additions

The Redskins are building a franchise from the ground up
these guys obviously have the control they need (I'm sure they have Snyder's support also)

we are seeing the results of some very good NFL people building our franchise into a team again

this is going to take time but it is happening


we will not be finishing in the bottom 10 again - it's going to be fun to watch our team play & be competitive again

Skinsfan55 wrote:Yeah, incompetence that must be why he's 200-126-1

The man is/was one of football's best coaches. He took miserable teams like Cleveland (two playoff appearances in twelve years, one was a 4 win strike shortened season) and Kansas City (one playoff appearance in 17 years, when Hank Stram was still the coach) and made them into contenders.

Fact is, he had a plan in place for the Redskins that mirrors the one we're seeing unfold in a couple ways. He'd had experience taking two moribund franchises and making them respectable (if never bringing home the Lombardi Trophy.) Schottenheimer's experience and Dan Snyder's money should have been a match made in heaven. Now Danny's a little more patient, a little less of a fan and we may yet get a second chance at seeing the team re-built properly and into a long term winner rather than banking on an above average first team to stay healthy in front of tissue thin depth as we did with Gibbs.

He was a skilled coach and team builder... yet, he will go down as the king of the chokers. The ourcome of his last game with the Chargers was completely predictable... though, admittedly, he did have some crappy breaks in a couple of his earlier games. What's the saying? You make your own breaks?

Deadskins wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:It must be getting close to real football

the dead man is back and on the boards

Was I ever really gone?

Doesn't one at some point have to be gone to be dead?

Or are you referring to the smell of the socks you left under the sofa? Can you do something about that, no one wanted to go near them...

this has been a long offseason ... BUT .... somethings never change

the Kaz is just as ornery as ever and now we are hearing things from the dead
I did not mean to imply that you left us - just hadn't heard from you for a while, is all


dcd has also been lurking beneath the waves

I'm afraid I'm starting to get excited about our Redskins again - that's troubling too