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baffled by our drafting out of position players
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:44 pm
by redskinz4ever
first off we draft brian orakpo who is a freak and might pan out to be an allpro linebacker.i think he has 17 1/2 career sacks which is solid but imagine him a full time defense end which is his natural position.
now this year we draft yet another defensive end ryan kerrigan who gets after the qb.but no we are trying to turn him into a outside linebacker who has to cover TE RB WR ....again not saying he wont pan out but why not draft an outside linebacker to play outside linebacker .... just seems like a real odd situation to put your players in.
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:52 pm
by Red_One43
To answer your question teams are trying to find the right guys who can drop into pass coverage and rush the passer. College defensive ends who are "tweeners" ( too small to be an NFL DE and too big to be an NFL OLB) usually fit the bill for 3-4 defenses who want bigger guys as OLBs. Why the Skins wanted to make Orakpo a DE when we were still in the 4-3, I don't know. Blache's scheme called for the DEs to have run responsibility unlike the Colts DEs, so I guess they might have been concerend about him on run downs. Somehow, the smaller Andre Carter held his own against the run in Blache's and Williams' schemes, but then again, he can't drop into pass coverage - He is a DE, period.
The article below talks about the transition of the postion and how DEs and OLBs are starting to be the same size as 4-3 schemes emphasize that the DEs be pass rushers first.
Re-emergence of the 3-4
More and more teams are switching from 4-3 fronts to 3-4 alignments since the versatility of the outside linebacker allows defenses to disguise pressure effectively. In 2007, about 30 percent of the NFL employed a 3-4 scheme; that number swelled to almost 50 percent last season.
Because a 250-pound outside linebacker is much more capable of covering a tight end or fitting into a zone-blitz scheme than a 280-pound defensive end (while still providing equal pass-rushing abilities), coaches are on high alert for these unique talents. There's a strong market for "tweeners," players who are caught in the crossroads between the outside linebacker and defensive end roles.
Drafting these undersized collegiate defensive ends and converting them to bulky, yet speedy, outside linebackers has become common practice. Tamba Hali and LaMarr Woodley are prime examples of this; their potent combinations of strength and speed give their defensive coordinators endless possibilities. McShay projects a few such picks in this year's first round, notably UNC's Robert Quinn and Arizona's Brooks Reed.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011 ... id=6410802The weight difference between defensive ends and outside linebackers has decreased by an average of 1 pound and 13 ounces per year over the past six years. They'll eventually strike a balance, but hypothetically, if they remained on that aggressive pace the positions would be indiscernible in 2026. Whether teams have their sights set on a lean defensive end or a bulky linebacking hybrid, drafting a dominant pass-rusher seems to be a safe move, because they'll always be an integral part of the game.
After all, in today's quarterback-driven league, the defense's greatest weapon has to be the guy who can stop him.
For Comparison:
Ryan Kerrigan
#53 LB
Height: 6-4 Weight: 263
Brian Orakpo
#98 LB
Height: 6-4 Weight: 260 Age: 25
Tamba Hali
#91 LB
Kansas City Chiefs
Height: 6-3 Weight: 275 Age: 27
LaMarr Woodley
#56 LB
Pittsburgh Steelers
Height: 6-2 Weight: 265 Age: 26
Dwight Freeney
#93
DE
Indianapolis Colts
Height: 6-1 Weight: 268 Age: 31
John Abraham
#55
DE
Atlanta Falcons
Height: 6-4 Weight: 263 Age: 33
Andre Carter
# DE
New England Patriots
Height: 6-4 Weight: 257 Age: 32
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:11 pm
by Irn-Bru
Red_One43 wrote:To answer your question . . .
Thank you for doing the work . . . saved me from doing something only 1/10th as good (if that, even).
Notice also that we drafted a "DT" who (I believe) will play DE. Even though it sounds like we've loaded up on the same position, I think they've done a very good job of acquiring players who are a good fit in each cog of this defense.
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:17 pm
by yupchagee
This isn't that new. Marcus Washington was a college DE.
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:49 pm
by Red_One43
Irn-Bru wrote:Red_One43 wrote:To answer your question . . .
Thank you for doing the work . . . saved me from doing something only 1/10th as good (if that, even).
Notice also that we drafted a "DT" who (I believe) will play DE. Even though it sounds like we've loaded up on the same position, I think they've done a very good job of acquiring players who are a good fit in each cog of this defense.
You're welcome.
Your post made me realize that I didn't touch on the 3-4 DE's who, typically, are much bigger than the 4-3 DEs. I'll add some comparisons below.
Cullen Jenkins, a 3-4 DE with the Packers last year, moves to 4-3 DT with the Eagles this year.
Cullen Jenkins
#97 DT
Philadelphia Eagles | Official Team Site
Height: 6-2 Weight: 305 Age: 30
An Eagle 4-3 DE
Trent Cole
#58 DE
Philadelphia Eagles
Height: 6-3 Weight: 270 Age: 28
Compared to Redskin 3-4 DEs
Adam Carriker
#94 DE
Washington Redskins
Height: 6-6 Weight: 315 Age: 27
Stephen Bowen
#72 DE
Washington Redskins
Height: 6-5 Weight: 306 Age: 27
Jarvis Jenkins
#99 DE
Washington Redskins
Height: 6-4 Weight: 309 Age: 23
An Eagle 4-3 OLB - Compare to Kerrigan and Orakpo (measurements in my earlier post)
Moise Fokou
#53 LB
Philadelphia Eagles
Height: 6-1 Weight: 236 Age: 25
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:57 pm
by Red_One43
yupchagee wrote:This isn't that new. Marcus Washington was a college DE.
True. The practice of moving college DE's to Linebackers has gotten more popular with the re-emergence of the 3-4. It has also become more popular with NFL DE's as well - same reason.
The most interesting transition from DE to LB to watch this year is
Mario Williams
#90 LB
Houston Texans
Height: 6-6 Weight: 290 Age: 26
If I am not mistaken, he is now the biggest OLB ever!
290 pounds!
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:14 am
by andyjens89
Red_One43 wrote:The most interesting transition from DE to LB to watch this year is
Mario Williams
#90 LB
Houston Texans
Height: 6-6 Weight: 290 Age: 26
If I am not mistaken, he is now the biggest OLB ever!
290 pounds!
They are calling it more of a "5-2", but yes he is a very large man, as well as an extraordinary pass rusher.
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:27 am
by SkinsJock
The college game is NOT the same as the NFL
college coaches are not anywhere near as good at preparing and coaching their players as the NFL guys
NFL coaches ONLY coach the best players - college coaches have a lot of players with ZERO chance of playing in the NFL
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:30 am
by Red_One43
andyjens89 wrote:Red_One43 wrote:The most interesting transition from DE to LB to watch this year is
Mario Williams
#90 LB
Houston Texans
Height: 6-6 Weight: 290 Age: 26
If I am not mistaken, he is now the biggest OLB ever!
290 pounds!
They are calling it more of a "5-2", but yes he is a very large man, as well as an extraordinary pass rusher.
Thanks Andy, this is what found.
Houston Texans defensive coordinator Wade Phillips said the team will play more of a 5-2 defensive alignment with LB Mario Williams being like a defensive end that is standing up and rushing the quarterback. "We really play a 5-2. We play five defensive linemen that can rush the passer and two inside 'backers who can tackle people. And we think Mario certainly fits in there," Phillips said.
Isn't Orakpo, Ware, Harrison, Matthews and the rest of the 3-4 linebackers doing the same thing that Phiillips is saying Williams will do? Sounds like Wade is trying to soften the concerns of his transition to the 3-4. If it was a really is 5-2, Williams will have his hand in the dirt and they would list Williams as a DE instead of as an LB. Key words "more of a 5-2."
Read more:
http://www.kffl.com/gnews.php?id=713761 ... z1UXOb49oUOK, I get what Wade is saying. They will often line up in the 5-2 formation with Williams' hand in the dirt and the other LB, likewise. It is a variation of the 3-4 but with the LB's hands in the dirt. The Cardinals are known to use that formation.
The Cardinals' can be difficult to figure from a scheme standpoint, and that is how they like it. Clancy Pendergast is one of the more creative coordinators in the league. He runs a hybrid defense that is part 3-4, part 4-3, part 5-2 and part unknown.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/ ... d-surprise
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:43 am
by langleyparkjoe
thanks Red1, preciate da effort!
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:54 am
by USAFSkinFan
I still think Orakpo would have been way way better as a full-time DE in a 4-3 than he is in this defense... He had, I think, 11 sacks his rookie year and all came from the DE position... he had almost no impact plays from the linebacker position and went to the probowl as linebacker... go figure... then last year in the 3-4 we were told how he was going to rush the passer twice as much, yet his production fell off... go figure...
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:15 pm
by andyjens89
USAFSkinFan wrote:then last year in the 3-4 we were told how he was going to rush the passer twice as much, yet his production fell off... go figure...
You have to put that into context. He had Haynesworth and Carter to take some pressure off of him the first year. Last year he was pretty much our only pass rush option and got held an obscene amount of times
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:15 pm
by Red_One43
USAFSkinFan wrote:I still think Orakpo would have been way way better as a full-time DE in a 4-3 than he i in this defense... He had, I think, 11 sacks his rookie year and all came from the DE position... he had almost no impact plays from the linebacker position and went to the probowl as linebacker... go figure... then last year in the 3-4 we were told how he was going to rush the passer twice as much, yet his production fell off... go figure...
I agree with you that
right now, he is clearly a better 4-3 pass rusher. I haven't heard anything on how he was against the run his rookie year. Can't agree with you with the almost no impact statement. 8.5 sacks and numerous hurries is not "almost no impact."
Here's somethings to consider.
In 2009, Rak was paired with Haynesworth. Haynesworth as a 4-3 DT definitely helps. On the opposite side, Andre Carter had his best sack total as a Redskin. Rak even said after the first Philly game in 2010, that Haynesworth in there made a difference for him.
Rak is still learning the postion. Unlike Ware, from Dallas, who played some linebacker in college, Rak is new to the position. He still needs to develop different moves to get to the passer. He said during the off seaosn that he is working on his moves.
Finally, an article ran that Orakpo is held more than any other pass rusher. That speaks volumes to his potential, but it is his job to get those guys off of him and develop new moves get to the QB.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcspor ... _held.html
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcspor ... lding.html
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:00 pm
by fleetus
drafting college DE's as NFL LB's is old news. Just a few examples:
Demarcus Ware
Lemarr Woodley
Tamba Hali
Anthony Spencer
Clay Matthews (played both DE and LB at USC)
Calvin Pace
It may actually be harder to find college LB's who became an NFL 3-4 OLB's than college DE's who made the transition.
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:26 pm
by CanesSkins26
Russellmania980 Chris Russell
Saw Ryan Kerrigan get under Logan Paulsen on a nice rush, heard from Dan S. from SB Nation that Ryan really struggled in pass coverage.
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:19 pm
by redskinz4ever
fleetus wrote:drafting college DE's as NFL LB's is old news. Just a few examples:
Demarcus Ware
Lemarr Woodley
Tamba Hali
Anthony Spencer
Clay Matthews (played both DE and LB at USC)
Calvin Pace
It may actually be harder to find college LB's who became an NFL 3-4 OLB's than college DE's who made the transition.
i am aware that this is not rare ..... just that kerrigan has struggled alot adjusting to being in open space & orakpo seems to disappear at times
thanks for all of your answers.
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:25 pm
by Red_One43
redskinz4ever wrote:fleetus wrote:drafting college DE's as NFL LB's is old news. Just a few examples:
Demarcus Ware
Lemarr Woodley
Tamba Hali
Anthony Spencer
Clay Matthews (played both DE and LB at USC)
Calvin Pace
It may actually be harder to find college LB's who became an NFL 3-4 OLB's than college DE's who made the transition.
i am aware that this is not rare ..... just that kerrigan has struggled alot adjusting to being in open space & orakpo seems to disappear at times
thanks for all of your answers.
Unfortunately, that is what is going to happen when guys are learning a new position at the next level. Kerrigan and Orakpo might not ever get good at it. I would love to see stats on the pct that the Packer and Steeler LBs drop back into coverage. How often does Orakpo drop back into coverage. From memory, I can't thing of very time, I didn't see Orakpo rushing the passer.
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:29 pm
by Red_One43
CanesSkins26 wrote:Russellmania980 Chris Russell
Saw Ryan Kerrigan get under Logan Paulsen on a nice rush, heard from Dan S. from SB Nation that Ryan really struggled in pass coverage.
Is there any one on THN who thinks that Kerrigan was going to come in here and ace pass coverage duties? For that matter how often do the Redkskin OLBs drop back into coverage?
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:39 pm
by yupchagee
USAFSkinFan wrote:I still think Orakpo would have been way way better as a full-time DE in a 4-3 than he is in this defense... He had, I think, 11 sacks his rookie year and all came from the DE position... he had almost no impact plays from the linebacker position and went to the probowl as linebacker... go figure... then last year in the 3-4 we were told how he was going to rush the passer twice as much, yet his production fell off... go figure...
It's hard to get sacks from the LB position when the DC doesn't like to blitz.
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:12 pm
by Red_One43
Red_One43 wrote:CanesSkins26 wrote:Russellmania980 Chris Russell
Saw Ryan Kerrigan get under Logan Paulsen on a nice rush, heard from Dan S. from SB Nation that Ryan really struggled in pass coverage.
Is there any one on THN who thinks that Kerrigan was going to come in here and ace pass coverage duties? For that matter how often do the Redkskin OLBs drop back into coverage?
This is from a Steeler website concerning their draft choice Chris Carter who was a college DE and is transitioning to OLB in their 3-4.
Carter has great explosion off the line. He’s a strong, muscular player, and he tackles well. However, because he played defensive end in college, he’s going to have to learn a lot of new skills. He’s used to playing with a hand on the ground. He’ll have to change that. He also has no experience dropping into coverage. That’s always a difficult adjustment for players who aren’t used to doing it. Both James Harrison and LaMarr Woodley struggled with dropping into coverage initially, but they’ve both become very effective at it.
http://steelerstoday.com/
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:31 pm
by Red_One43
Red_One43 wrote:redskinz4ever wrote:fleetus wrote:drafting college DE's as NFL LB's is old news. Just a few examples:
Demarcus Ware
Lemarr Woodley
Tamba Hali
Anthony Spencer
Clay Matthews (played both DE and LB at USC)
Calvin Pace
It may actually be harder to find college LB's who became an NFL 3-4 OLB's than college DE's who made the transition.
i am aware that this is not rare ..... just that kerrigan has struggled alot adjusting to being in open space & orakpo seems to disappear at times
thanks for all of your answers.
Unfortunately, that is what is going to happen when guys are learning a new position at the next level. Kerrigan and Orakpo might not ever get good at it.
I would love to see stats on the pct that the Packer and Steeler LBs drop back into coverage. How often does Orakpo drop back into coverage. From memory, I can't thing of very time, I didn't see Orakpo rushing the passer.
According to this article (a comparison of the Packer and the Steeler 3-4), Matthews (Packers) and Woodley (Steelers) mirror each other. They both rarely drop into coverage. Surprisingly, Harrison (Steelers) drops back more often. Zombo (Packers) plays a Harrison-like role, but it is not quite the same.
Matthews rarely drops into coverage — he made 25 plays against the pass, and his average sack/tackle/interception occurred 2.7 yards behind the line of scrimmage. That means he is usually sacking the quarterback or chasing down a running back on a screen, not covering a receiver. Even Matthews’ lone interception occurred in the offensive backfield when he grabbed a deflected pass while on his way to sack Jon Kitna. Woodley made 26 plays on passes, with his average play occurring 1.0 yards behind the line of scrimmage. Matthews and Woodley typically act as the third or fourth defensive lineman in the Packers/Steelers scheme, the guy who lines up somewhere on the edge of the defense with only one thing on his mind.
What about Harrison? He made 44 plays against the pass, with the average play occurring 3.0 yards downfield. Mixed among his 11 sacks are a lot of tackles in coverage. Watch Steelers game tape, and you will be shocked how often he drops back instead of rushing.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/41378216/ ... _bowl_xlv/
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:01 am
by HEROHAMO
I am fine with Kerrigan and Orakpo rushing the passer most of the time. Whats most important is if Kerrigan can get to the QB and stay healthy. We didnt bring in Rak and Kerrigan for the pass coverage abilities.
Fletcher and Rocky will be doing most of the coverage duties anyhow. So I think we have to remember that we brought in Orakpo and Kerrigan because they can rush the passer. If they can both put up ten plus sacks with multiple pressures then I think we can all agree it will be a success.
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:19 am
by fleetus
Despite the misconception of three on the line being smaller, the 3-4 is a usually a bigger defense than a 4-3. The three lineman are all bigger than typical 4-3 DL's. And the 4 LB's are bigger than typical 4-3 LB's. In addition to being bigger, the 3 DL's have more gap responsibility, so the 4 LB's have more freedom to attack the QB, attack the RB and read the pass play. For this reason, the 3-4 OLB's can be more aggressive on the edges. They don't need to drop into coverage all the time. You could almost look at it as a 5-2 zone blitz defense. Where you have three DT's in the middle and two DE's on the outside. The two DE's drop into occasional zone blitzes.
Since the NFL has created rules to make it easier for QB's and WR's to connect in the passing game, defenses have had to evolve. By teaching college DE's how to drop into coverage you make them more versatile, unpredictable defenders. By standing them up as 3-4 OLB's you make it harder for the OL to get their hands on them and harder for the QB to get a pre-snap read.
That is why Pittsburgh, New England and others have taken the 3-4 another step further and are often using 2-5, 1-5 and similar concepts where you you have 5 LB's standing up and offenses have no idea where they're going after the snap.
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:31 am
by SkinsJock
Most good defenses play a lot of variations and also rotate the bigger players a lot more than they used to
last season we saw defensive game planning with our defense that did not have the players that were either suited to playing OR were 'comfortable' executing
we'll see a better defensive game planning and execution this season
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:47 pm
by mattyk72
Not many college teams run the 3-4, so players making the transition from DE to LB is not all that uncommon.