The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Look, I like Cpt Chaos as much as anyone, I got pictures in my basement with him at draft day, autographs, jerseys ect, but I feel like every post I see gives him a free ride. Everytime I see a post saying we need to build around him and a few others, I cant help but wonder why he is included?

Now this would be totally different if we did not have someone else right underneath him with a ton of upside (Davis), but we do. ey had a great beginning to the season and pgreat past seasons, but since that concussion he had, he looks lost and slower. Granted he might still be feeling it, but many players are feeling injuries and not getting passes like he is getting.

People go on about McNabb, the O Line, Portis ect....well all these guys are/were banged up. Not to many people complain about Chris. Well I am here to.....

Chris has been dropping a ton of passes, fumbling and many times just seems "lost" out there. I know what he has done in the past, but I am thinking Fred Davis should get a shot. ey is the better blocker anyway, leave him in to block and let Fred Davis run the routes.

We could probably get a 2nd rounder for ey (Shockey went for a 2nd), with the state we are in, that could be a pass rushing DE to go along side Orakpo which would allow us to shift to a more "conventional" 3-4 where you keep the O Line guessing to as whose blitzing. Right now, Orakpo blitzes every play, no fooling anyone there.

I cant believe I am saying this, because like I said he is and has been my favorite redskin for a long time, but Im ready to end the ey era in DC and ready to trade him in the offseason. Ill support him always, but it might be better for the TEAM to get that 2nd rounder.

Personally, I don't think he gets nearly enough touches in games these days, and has never gotten enough in the red zone. He probably has the best hands on the team, so I don't agree with your drops and fumbles assessment. He is also my favorite Redskin, so I hope we don't trade him. I would hate for him to be playing for anybody else.

He's now lost 4 fumbles in his career. He's 3rd in the NFL for TEs in receptions.

He's never been a coverted WR looking TE. Even in the beginning, I've wondered how he even runs, b/c he looks clunky, but he gets it done. Everyone drops balls in the NFL, everyone. He needs to stay and we need to use BOTH TEs in a full time basis with the lack of depth in our WRs IMO.

Well if thats true about 4 fumbles in his career, whats going on this year? This year he has 3 fumbles alone which leads ALL, I repeat ALL tight ends in the NFL who have at least 1 reception. (according to stats on nfl.com) He also has more drops then any year I can remember. If drops were an NFL stat, I bet he would be up there on that list too. To say he has some of the best hands on the team is like saying Sherman Klump was the skinniest person in his family.

My point in this argument is ey gets away with alot of mistakes without being crucified on these boards. When McNabb throws a pick, everyone is all over him. When the O Line misses a block, people trash them (which is well deserved bc they do suck!). WHen ey continues to drop passes, or fumble, its "Oh well, he'll get it next time". I have been that guy in the past and Im done with it. He needs to be held as accountable as anyone else on this team, on the field and off it.

skins2357 wrote:We could probably get a 2nd rounder for ey (Shockey went for a 2nd), with the state we are in, that could be a pass rushing DE to go along side Orakpo which would allow us to shift to a more "conventional" 3-4 where you keep the O Line guessing to as whose blitzing

And a lottery ticket could be a million bucks. A second rounder is most likely to be a probable roll player and possible, unspectacular starter in several years. They are as likely more to be cut first as be any good. We only have so much positive going on this team and you want to kill that?

As for Orakpo, he was considered a steal as the 13th pick and you're projecting a second rounder to be his bookend? Please.

I think that ey is part of the Solution and a player who has bought in. When changing your team, the one thing you need is continuity. In my opinion, if you want to trade a TE, then trade Davis. I like what I've seen in the blocking with Paulus and last week he did have a catch coming off a block.

I think that you've got to keep good players instead of trading them away. Yes Davis has great potential but I wouldn't risk ey to find out.

But a 2nd rounder could also be an All-Pro defensive lineman, or a O Lineman who could hold down his spot for the next 10 years. Is it a gamble? Sure. But when you have depth that could take over for ey immediatly, then yes I would risk that for a 2nd rounder.

You could say the same thing about any draft pick being a gamble. And in many cases, 2nd rounders are alot more then unspectacular depth players. The number of 2nd round stars are endless, as is the number of 2nd round busts. But atleast we dont have Vinny anymore, so thats gotta improve our chances a little bit!

I'm not saying he gets a pass, but to have the stats that he does, gives him some credibility. And your opinions and perceptions are certainly allowable, but I simply do not agree with the severe degredation in performance that you attempt to illustrate here.

And I was wrong, he's now tied for 2nd in receptions for TEs.

And if he's so bad, by your standards, how are we getting a 2nd rounder for a TE who's falling off? I find it hard to believe that your insight escapes team professionals who eval players for a living and he's not good enough for our team, but another team wil give up a 2nd?

He's a highly production member of this team, and I don't think it's prudent to trade or otherwise remove ey from teh Redskins.

edited for typo

I was simply using past trades to guage his worth. Im not saying he is not good anymore or a declining player. Im saying that these are bad stats that people dont bother to look at because he is everyones favorite player, and I have been guilty of that too.

I do think that you could get a 2nd rounder for him. Am I a NFL executive, absolutely not. Like I said before I was simply using Shockey as a comparable.

skins2357 wrote:I was simply using past trades to guage his worth. Im not saying he is not good anymore or a declining player. Im saying that these are bad stats that people dont bother to look at because he is everyones favorite player, and I have been guilty of that too.

I do think that you could get a 2nd rounder for him. Am I a NFL executive, absolutely not. Like I said before I was simply using Shockey as a comparable.

I'm not sure why you want to trade a Pro-Bowl calibre player for the potential to gain another Pro-bowl calibre player. There is a reason ey is everyone's favorite player. I would rather trade Davis, even though ey is a few years older, but I don't think that would be a smart move either.

skins2357 wrote:Look, I like Cpt Chaos as much as anyone, I got pictures in my basement with him at draft day, autographs, jerseys ect, but I feel like every post I see gives him a free ride. Everytime I see a post saying we need to build around him and a few others, I cant help but wonder why he is included?

Now this would be totally different if we did not have someone else right underneath him with a ton of upside (Davis), but we do. ey had a great beginning to the season and pgreat past seasons, but since that concussion he had, he looks lost and slower. Granted he might still be feeling it, but many players are feeling injuries and not getting passes like he is getting.

People go on about McNabb, the O Line, Portis ect....well all these guys are/were banged up. Not to many people complain about Chris. Well I am here to.....

Chris has been dropping a ton of passes, fumbling and many times just seems "lost" out there. I know what he has done in the past, but I am thinking Fred Davis should get a shot. ey is the better blocker anyway, leave him in to block and let Fred Davis run the routes.

We could probably get a 2nd rounder for ey (Shockey went for a 2nd), with the state we are in, that could be a pass rushing DE to go along side Orakpo which would allow us to shift to a more "conventional" 3-4 where you keep the O Line guessing to as whose blitzing. Right now, Orakpo blitzes every play, no fooling anyone there.

I cant believe I am saying this, because like I said he is and has been my favorite redskin for a long time, but Im ready to end the ey era in DC and ready to trade him in the offseason. Ill support him always, but it might be better for the TEAM to get that 2nd rounder.

I've watched pretty much all of every game this season, and yeah ey's dropped a few more passes than normal, but not a ton. He's been a playmaker on 3rd downs again, and has grabbed some critical passes for firsts when we needed them the most. He's one of the only consistent bright spots on this offense year after year, and you would want to trade that because of maybe 5-8 drops and 3 fumbles? No thank you. ey is a Redskin down to the core; its guys like him that deserve to see this team win after putting in so many tough years, and never giving up. He is 2nd in receptions and 4th in yards for tight ends, and he's playing on an offense that has been absolutely terrible most of the time. ey is an ideal veteran Redskin to build around; not part ways with.

As a huge ey fan, I hate this thread, but even as a Redskins fan looking to the future, this thread still makes no sense to me.

I agree with Skins2357, ey can do no wrong in a lot of peoples eyes, and maybe he has earned that right. Personally, I have seen him make some critical catches, but I have also seen him kill drives with his drops. I also have seen the same fumbles 2357 is alluding to. To me he is far from consistent with his drops and fumbles.

In regards to him being a "Core Redskin", we heard this phrase a lot when Gibbs came back, but I like to look at teams like the Steelers, who have a whole team of core players. He seems to be a great guy, but with Davis lerking in the weeds, I think a trade may be a good idea.

With that said, I know everyone has their own opinions and I respect them. I'm just stating some of the flaws that I have seen which haven't been brought to light.

Where Skins2357 and I differ is the value he would demand in a trade. I don't see him demanding a 2nd rounder because TE isn't a glorified position and he is top 5 due to injuries. I would put Davis, Finley, Clark, Gates, Miller, and some others above him. With that said, I wouldn't expect more than a 3rd for him. Injuries make his league rank (receptions, yards, etc.) look better than they are.

Also, I've heard several people defer to the coaches thoughts and opinions when convenient, well can someone explain to me why none of our coaches have used ey in the redzone. Is he as tall as other TE's. I know he is built like a H-Back. Maybe the redzone simply isn't his strong suit and the coaches realize this. Just thinking out loud.

I know I will be crucified for this thoughts and that is cool, I'm always up for friendly discussions/debates.

SKIN4LIFE wrote:Also, I've heard several people defer to the coaches thoughts and opinions when convenient, well can someone explain to me why none of our coaches have used ey in the redzone. Is he as tall as other TE's. I know he is built like a H-Back. Maybe the redzone simply isn't his strong suit and the coaches realize this. Just thinking out loud.

I think the coaches have tried to use ey in the redzone, but with an offense as stagnant as ours and minimal oppurtunites it has just been tough going. Defenses have to know that when we're in the redzone ey and Moss are the only real recieving threats, thats probably why we've seen more TD's from dump-offs, screens and lesser known threats like AA, and Freddy D.

Everyone in the NFL drops passes. It actually hasn't been as big of an issue with the redskins as people make it out to be. I believe going into the giants game as a whole team the redskins had the fewest drops in the NFL. This might be because we have less offensive plays than a lot of other teams. But still there is more a problem of not getting open, missed throws, and no offensive line protection than dropping passes.

Cooely has looked a little off since his concussion but he is still probably one of the redskins top 10 best players without any doubt.

For those of you who are saying to trade Davis instead, we would not get more then a 6th or 7th for him. Sure, all of us know his potential and get excited when you see him catch a ball and turn it into a huge gain, but I dont think he is going to demand anywhere near what ey would.

For those of you saying no way ey should be traded, thats fine. ey has been my favorite player since he was drafted and rocked the afro and booty shorts to practice, but not trading a guy because you like him never improves the team.

My point is that you have a guy who could demand a draft pick and a young talent to take his place. eys popularity is why people dont want to trade him, it has nothing to do with whats best for the team. I understand he has been clutch in the past, and Im sure he has more great years in front of him. But you have to ask whats best for this team?Whats best for the team is generating as many picks as you can for next years draft without sacrificing quality depth. I'm not talking about trading a star player with no depth behind him, what I AM talking about is trading a star player, where you have a guy who could be a future star behind him just waiting for his shot.

But like I said before, why trade a Pro-Bowl calibre player for a chance to draft a player who might turn into a Pro-Bowl calibre player? You're saying gamble a known commodity for an unknown one and that is probably not good for the team either. Sometimes the best move is to stand pat, and play the cards you are dealt.

I am not a ey fan but see him as a critical contributor to the Redskins. If the Redskins trade away every player that has value, what will we have left? 22 Alberts? What do we have to build a team around? To build a great team, you have to have great to good players. Keep ey.

skins2357 wrote:For those of you who are saying to trade Davis instead, we would not get more then a 6th or 7th for him. Sure, all of us know his potential and get excited when you see him catch a ball and turn it into a huge gain, but I dont think he is going to demand anywhere near what ey would.

For those of you saying no way ey should be traded, thats fine. ey has been my favorite player since he was drafted and rocked the afro and booty shorts to practice, but not trading a guy because you like him never improves the team.

My point is that you have a guy who could demand a draft pick and a young talent to take his place. Cooleys popularity is why people dont want to trade him, it has nothing to do with whats best for the team. I understand he has been clutch in the past, and Im sure he has more great years in front of him. But you have to ask whats best for this team?Whats best for the team is generating as many picks as you can for next years draft without sacrificing quality depth. I'm not talking about trading a star player with no depth behind him, what I AM talking about is trading a star player, where you have a guy who could be a future star behind him just waiting for his shot.

Actually I think most people here are saying that they don't want to trade him because of his abilities, not because he's a popular player.

Also I think Fred Davis has almost as much trade value as ey because he is younger and brings more athletism. I don't think ey would get a 2nd...maybe a 3rd, and I think Davis would probably get something in the 3rd or 4th range. Either way, I wouldn't trade either of them because TE's don't bring much in trade value and they are both playmakers and contributors to the team.

I knew this would be an absolutely absurd thread but seriously?? New qb new offense and still highly productive and you... Can't even type it. WTF? I'd call for moss s head sooner then ey- big drops costly fumbles... But never these are our boys man! I know it sux to loose nut don't get rid of the team players that bleed b and g especially the ones doing well and not to old.. I want to keep portis (for 3rd downs and spell back) and Fletcher too..

Man ey?
Seriously?
I'd be depressed more then every loss x1million this season if we lost my boy.... CooooooOOoooooooOooo

[quote="cowboykillerzRED"]I knew this would be an absolutely absurd thread but seriously?? New qb new offense and still highly productive and you... Can't even type it. WTF? I'd call for moss s head sooner then ey- big drops costly fumbles... But never these are our boys man! I know it sux to loose nut don't get rid of the team players that bleed b and g especially the ones doing well and not to old.. I want to keep portis (for 3rd downs and spell back) and Fletcher too..

Man ey?
Seriously?
I'd be depressed more then every loss x1million this season if we lost my boy.... CooooooOOoooooooOooo[/quote]

Absolutely absurd thread? Wow, sorry it didn't meet your standards. Didn't know we could not have a civilized debate. Moss is a FA at the end of the year, thats why I am not calling for his head. His drops are well documented, and everyone knows about it. But ey never gets any grief on here, and I was simply pointing that out.

Now if we are not trading ey because the FO doesn't have faith in Davis or they think eys talents outweigh his trade value, so be it, no problem with that. But if we are not trading ey because "he bleeds B and G", thats not putting the team 1st. My point is simple, we have a star player with a more then servicable, younger, cheaper backup. I understand it would be difficult to see him go, but would it be better for the team.

Is the dropoff in talent between ey and Davis enough to warrant keeping both players and wasting 1? We can all say run the 2 TE set, but if it has not been done by now, chances are they (Shannys) are not fans of the idea.

skins2357 wrote:We can all say run the 2 TE set, but if it has not been done by now, chances are they (Shannys) are not fans of the idea.

I has been done many times this season. What games are you watching? And you still haven't answered my question. Why trade a Pro-Bowl calibre player for a pick that only has potential to be a Pro-Bowl calibre player? You're acting as if the 2nd rounder (if we got that) is guaranteed to be as good as ey.

Im watching the same games as you there bud. If the double TE set is being run, then it sure is not being done very well. Davis has not been catching balls at all until recently. In the first part of the season, you rarely saw Davis' name at all, and I did not notice him on the field very often. If I am wrong so be it, but I dont think we run the double TE set as much as other teams who have LESS talent then we have there. Anyway, thats something totally different.

Your question about why to trade a Pro Bowl player for a pick that has potential is unreal. I thought I had answered this question numerous times. Ill try again.

If this is your argument about the drafted player not being as good as the player you trade, then why do teams do it all the time? It would not be the 1st time a player has been traded for picks. Do you think a GM says "You know, if we get a 2nd rounder for this player, that 2nd rounder might be a bust". Nope, they trust that they can find a future starter in the 2nd round. If we traded ey, will our 2nd rounder be as good as ey? Maybe not. But that pick will hopefully solidify another position, and with Davis as the new TE, the drop off in talent might not be that noticable. Now if we had noone under ey, thats different. But we do, and he proved last year he can be just as effective as ey (numbers wise), and Paulsen has played decent when given the chance as a blocking TE. You would think as a rookie, he continues to improve

skins2357 wrote:Im watching the same games as you there bud. If the double TE set is being run, then it sure is not being done very well. Davis has not been catching balls at all until recently. In the first part of the season, you rarely saw Davis' name at all, and I did not notice him on the field very often. If I am wrong so be it, but I dont think we run the double TE set as much as other teams who have LESS talent then we have there. Anyway, thats something totally different.

Your question about why to trade a Pro Bowl player for a pick that has potential is unreal. I thought I had answered this question numerous times. Ill try again.

If this is your argument about the drafted player not being as good as the player you trade, then why do teams do it all the time? It would not be the 1st time a player has been traded for picks. Do you think a GM says "You know, if we get a 2nd rounder for this player, that 2nd rounder might be a bust". Nope, they trust that they can find a future starter in the 2nd round. If we traded ey, will our 2nd rounder be as good as ey? Maybe not. But that pick will hopefully solidify another position, and with Davis as the new TE, the drop off in talent might not be that noticable. Now if we had noone under ey, thats different. But we do, and he proved last year he can be just as effective as ey (numbers wise), and Paulsen has played decent when given the chance as a blocking TE. You would think as a rookie, he continues to improve

Ive got to side with Skins2357 .. to say you cant trade a player for a draft pick because that draft pick might not be as good is ridiculous.. While that is a possibility its also a possibility that the kid you pick up in the 2nd round or any round for that matter will be better than the player traded for the pick.. If you never trade players for draft picks or other players how does your team improve? whats the point of GMs really?.. that means we should never let any FA's leave because the guy we bring into replace them MIGHT not be better .. so since Moss has been ok we better keep him till he retires and every other player too.. Rabach has been taking alot of heat and people want him gone but what if we cut him and his replacement is worse? whelp lets keep him till he retires too that way we KNOW that we arent replacing any player with another that has the potential to be worse..

like many of you I'm a HUGE ey fan but I'm an even bigger Redskins fan.. I want to see this team improve and eventually become a consistent winner just like I know all of you do .. but the fact is we are the OLDEST team in the NFL and we are one of the WORST teams for that matter too.. you can throw the record in my face of 5-7 which is better than more than a few teams and the fact that we have a few qaulity wins but fact of the matter is we are ranked near the bottom or at the bottom of the NFL in offense and defense and we have no real young talent ready to help improve those numbers on the horizion.. What we do have is a few players in there prime who we might be able to use to acquire some young talent for the future and Im all for anything that will help this team get younger..

having a team that is "rebuilding" but yet is the oldest team in the NFL just doesnt translate into a winning team IMO.. We are a couple years away still and it sucks to say it or even think it but from what I see its true and with that why not get value for the guys that have value and who by the time we get this thing right will be at the end of their careers anyway just because they are "core" Redskins and fan favorites or because since they have been here through the bad they deserve to be here for the good.. the NFL is a buisness its not about making sure a player who was good for you when you were bad is on your team when your good.

Well said. Im a huge ey fan too, but Im a bigger fan of the Redskins, and anything we need to do to acquire young talent to improve this team, so be it