The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Let me preface this by saying I am as big a 4-3 guy as anyone, but don’t be concerned if we make this move. It’s not like Shanahan it going to come in, hire a 3-4 guy, and then just force it on our defense starting day one. It’ll be a gradual move as subtle personnel changes are made to fit a new defensive scheme.

Think of how Bill Parcells ran his defense down in Dallas. He came in in 2003 and basically owned everyone with a 4-3 defense. In 2004 they got a beat up themselves in that 4-3 as they let pieces that were 4-3 only walk away. They were very average that year on defense. In 2005 that started experimenting with 3-4 and had some good improvement. It wasn’t until 2006 that they went complete 3-4 and they didn’t do too badly most of the time. Now a days, those kids Parcells brought in are all grown up and beasting on people as Wade Phillips lets them run wild.

That’s how I see any change made by us to a 3-4 defense going. It will be gradual and we have some pieces in the front seven that could really make it work. Plus, I think it would be more of a combo 4-3/3-4 like you have seen in New England and Baltimore the past few years.

Now, here is the big question obviously; can Albert Haynesworth function in the 3-4? Yes, he can. Hayneworth could absolutely dominate as a 3-4 D-Lineman and could be rotated around to feast on O-Lines. With a beast like Big Al, if a coach wanted to have him dominate, he could. I am convinced Blache used him as badly as anyone could. He used Big Al like a mere mortal instead of turning him lose. Even guys who are already big time 3-4 lineman like Shaun Rogers, Halota Ngata, and Vince Wilfork have more freedom at the nose tackle position than Haynesworth did this year as a B gap player.

Lets use a couple examples. Look at Haloti Ngata in Baltimore who is his competition for best defensive lineman in the NFL. Halota Ngata tips the scale at about 345 himself. Ngata has been in constantly rotating defenses in Baltimore. He has kicked rear as a 4-3 DT, performed admirably as a 3-4 nose, been shockingly good as a 4-3 DE, and has thrived in what I could see Haynesworth being here; a 3-4 DE. Haloti Ngata even as a nose/end combo guy in Baltimore has dominated the past few years for one of the premiere defensive teams in the NFL.

Another example is Richard Seymour in New England. Seymour, like Ngata and Haynesworth, a special talent on the Defensive Line. Seymour, although he is only 310, kind of fit’s the same way Haynesworth does as a dominant 3 technique in a 4-3. While in New England, Seymour thrived in a 3-4. His stats didn’t always scream out, but his impact was awesome. He might have more end in him than Big Al, but even Seymour moon lighted a bit at nose in 3-4 even though he always had big time 3-4 noses like Ted Washington, Keith Traylor, and Vince Wilfork. Hayneworth like Seymour would be a great weapon in a 3-4 as either a force of nature that can wreck tackles or be the nose that centers stay awake sick about.

If we go with a 3-4, Albert Haynesworth will find a fit. Our coaches will find a fit. He could do great at either spot. The main thing is if we’re winning and succeeding, Big Al will be a very happy camper. He’ll be happier in a 3-4 for a winning team than he will be as a 4-3 star on a losing team like he was this year. Big Al can earn his money just as well in a 3-4 if he helps our defense be a top 5 unit in the NFL.

Another question is Brian Orakpo. I won’t go as in depth here, but he’ll do fine. Think about it, this year he did fine as a 4-3 OLB. If we move to a 3-4, he’ll be used in a Demarcus Ware, Terrell Suggs, LaMarr Woodley, or Shawn Merriman role. In a 3-4, I think Orakpo could become an unstoppable beast in a role that would be better described as a standup end than an outside linebacker. None of those guys I listed would do great or even as well as maybe even Orakpo did as a standup, true OLB in a 4-3, but each one is great as a 3-4 OLB. Orakpo’s job 90% of the time in a 3-4 would be to kill the QB, just like it is at defensive end in a 3-4. I’m pretty sure Orakpo is actually just as big if not bigger than Ware. Orakpo is the type of guy that wherever you put him, he’ll succeed. He's a War Daddy Creature naturally when it comes to rushing the passer.

Yeah, lots of questions about moving to a 3-4, but I think whatever we do, if Shanny brings in a good DC, we’ll still be pretty awesome defensively whatever happens. Some changes will have to be made to our roster, but our two most important parts in the in the front seven can all fit into a 3-4 if needed to. It's kind of exciting to think how nasty we'd be on defense if we brought in a big time nose tackle next to Haynesworth as Orakpo did his best DeMarcus Ware/Shawne Merriman impression.

Plus, remember, maybe this move never even happens and we stick to a 4-3.

Awesome post - thanks!

Personally, I'll be extremely excited if we stay 4-3 or go 3-4. The more I think about Orakpo in a 3-4 the more nasty I think we could be defensively.

The more Orakpo's after the QB, the more I like it no matter what it is.

I think that Orakpo is clearly developing coverage skills... despite being burned last week. However, I'm just not as comfortable as others that we have the linebackers to play a 3-4.

Countertrey wrote:I think that Orakpo is clearly developing coverage skills... despite being burned last week. However, I'm just not as comfortable as others that we have the linebackers to play a 3-4.

I believe we'll need at least 2 LB and at least 1 more lineman to start. We move Rocky inside and then need another outside LB? I don't see us having the DE for a 3-4 since they're predominantly bigger than 4-3 ends, aren't they? Is Jarmon, Carter, Wilson, ect big enough to run 3-4 LB position?

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Countertrey wrote:I think that Orakpo is clearly developing coverage skills... despite being burned last week. However, I'm just not as comfortable as others that we have the linebackers to play a 3-4.

I believe we'll need at least 2 LB and at least 1 more lineman to start. We move Rocky inside and then need another outside LB? I don't see us having the DE for a 3-4 since they're predominantly bigger than 4-3 ends, aren't they? Is Jarmon, Carter, Wilson, ect big enough to run 3-4 LB position?

Jarmon & Alexander are big enough. Carter & Wilson could only play OLB in a 3-4.

I don't fear the 3-4. I hate it! Completely irrational, but I just don't like it.

^^^ I sorta have to agree.

3-4 would unleash Haynesworth, but you'd have to worry even more about his stamina because he's absolutely gonna see 2, even 3 linemen on every single play. That being said, the two most key guys in the 3-4 are probably the nose and the inside backers. Haynesworth and Fletcher might be the most lethal pair in the league. Haynesworth dominates the A-gap and never gets pushed back, and I don't know if there's a more sure tackler in the league than Fletcher. Orakpo would be huge on the outside as well, obviously.

I think the weaknesses would remain the same: Landry's ability to provide disciplined coverage and the wear & tear on the corners.

BeeGee wrote:3-4 would unleash Haynesworth, but you'd have to worry even more about his stamina because he's absolutely gonna see 2, even 3 linemen on every single play. That being said, the two most key guys in the 3-4 are probably the nose and the inside backers. Haynesworth and Fletcher might be the most lethal pair in the league. Haynesworth dominates the A-gap and never gets pushed back, and I don't know if there's a more sure tackler in the league than Fletcher. Orakpo would be huge on the outside as well, obviously.

I think the weaknesses would remain the same: Landry's ability to provide disciplined coverage and the wear & tear on the corners.

Exactly, Haynesworth in a 3-4 seems great, except when hes taking breathers and sitting out games.

Countertrey wrote:I think that Orakpo is clearly developing coverage skills... despite being burned last week.

Realize he would do a lot less coverage if he were to be playing in a 3-4. Most likely he'd remain at SLB, but in a 4-3, he is a true OLB in the mold of a Marcus Washington or Rocky McIntosh. In a 3-4, he would do some coverage, but very minimal. How often do you see Shawne Merriman or DeMarcus Ware 20 yards downfield trying to cover someone? Very rarely. They're trying to kill the QB.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Countertrey wrote:I think that Orakpo is clearly developing coverage skills... despite being burned last week. However, I'm just not as comfortable as others that we have the linebackers to play a 3-4.

I believe we'll need at least 2 LB and at least 1 more lineman to start. We move Rocky inside and then need another outside LB? I don't see us having the DE for a 3-4 since they're predominantly bigger than 4-3 ends, aren't they? Is Jarmon, Carter, Wilson, ect big enough to run 3-4 LB position?

Well, of course we'd have to make changes. Since I am bored and have too much times, Here are my opinions on some other guys in our front seven;

Andre Carter = Hasn’t done great at OLB in the past and there is a reason it was 4-3 teams going hard after him when he was a FA. He’d probably end up comboing at DE and OLB situationally.
Renaldo Wynn = Love him but I am guessing he is gone. Too old.
Phillip Daniels = Hopefully he retires this offseason and sticks in the organization in some capacity. Otherwise at best he is a situational DE if we even keep him around as a player.
Chris Wilson = I think this guy is destined to be a good rush backer for us as well as play some downs at DE. He is too young and has shown too many flashes to walk just yet when he is cheap.
Rob Jackson = Not sure how this guy places. I have a feeling this guy may be gone unless he explodes as an OLB.
Cornelius Griffin = Love Griffin and I think in 2004 he was the best DT in the NFL hands down. He still has some gas in him and gave us some good production this year, but I’m not sure he fits in a 3-4. He may be gone unless he restructures to take even less money. I think he is too small for nose and too unathletic to be an end. He might be able to stick around a bit as a rotation guy but for our current DTs, I think he’s at the bottom of the list.
Kedric Golston = Young and cheap with a high motor, I hope he sticks around. I think he could grow into a full time 3-4 end.
Anthony Montgomery = This is a guy who I am always excited for. He’s a specimen who is taking steps forward. I think this guy could stay around and play some nose and end for us. I wouldn't be suprised if he ended up starting games at both spots next year. Plus, young and cheap.
Lorenzo Alexander = Another young and cheap guy. He will be kept around for special teams atleast. He’ll could be a decent end for us. High motor. Versatility is the word in 3-4's and he has it.
London Fletcher = Good is good is good. London will be fine for us in the middle. Just have to keep a lot of size in front of him. I think he’ll pick up the defense fast enough.
HB Blades = This guy is still the next London Fletcher. He’ll eventually be a very good starter for us.
Rocky McIntosh = I think it makes sense he’ll be moved inside. Good thing is he still has the size and speed to fill in at the OLB if we really need him to.

I think our needs off the bat if we moved to a 3-4 is one more LB, whether it be middle or outside, and atleast one pure 3-4 defensive lineman. Haynesworth can take one spot and between the other 9 guys we have on roster, we can let a few walk and keep the others and develop at the least a rotation of players at the final spot.

However, like I said before, if this happens it will be a gradual process and won’t happen overnight. I see us at most possibly being a 50-50 4-3/3-4 defense next year.

Interesting thread but I am not biting.

We will stay with a 4-3.

Why? Because the HC and the DC will prefer to do so and the personnel we have is not truly suited for a 3-4 in the short term (and this FO and staff is under tremendous pressure to deliver a quick turnaround quickly).

A 3- 4 would be an experiment which requires more time to implement correctly.

I am a fan of a 4-3, I must concede.

I'm a big fan of the 4-3 and hope we stay in it, I am just playing what if since it is the offseason. If we do go 3-4, it will be a several year process like I laid out in my first post, kind of like the Cowboys had to do.

As far as DE's go, we could just plug in our lighter DT's. I think Griffin (I know he's not light, does get upfield) Golston, Daniels (if healthy), Alexander, Wynn/Jackson could be 3-4 DE's. Haynesworth and Montgomery could rotate at nose, maybe Griffin some also.

I think that is the positon we would need somebody. I'm not sure about Montgomery, especially with big Al out a lot.

Lb's aren't an issue. Fletcher/Rocky inside backed up by blades. Carter/Orakpo/Wilson on the outside. Secondary is the same.

It wouldn't be an issue I dont think except at Nose.

The only problem with going 3-4 is finding the additional backer. Whether it's in a 3-4 or 4-3, #98 needs to be attacking the backfield. If we stay 4-3, you have to put him next to Fat Albert. If you go 3-4, you have to use him like Ware, Suggs, Merriman, etc. are being used.

The 3-4 actually gives you more flexibility with Brian because the opponent doesn't know if he's coming or dropping back in coverage. So it's a crap shoot for them but a benefit for us.

I dont fear the 3-4 I love the 3-4.

Smithian wrote:Personally, I'll be extremely excited if we stay 4-3 or go 3-4. The more I think about Orakpo in a 3-4 the more nasty I think we could be defensively.

wow...that's saying alot. Heads or Tails...? What other choice do we have....???

Personally I dont think we have the players to go to a 3-4 defense. It would be impossible. We have the players for a 4-3 scheme. CInci defence is a 4-3 and it is pretty good managed !!!

ATX_Skins wrote:

BeeGee wrote:3-4 would unleash Haynesworth, but you'd have to worry even more about his stamina because he's absolutely gonna see 2, even 3 linemen on every single play. That being said, the two most key guys in the 3-4 are probably the nose and the inside backers. Haynesworth and Fletcher might be the most lethal pair in the league. Haynesworth dominates the A-gap and never gets pushed back, and I don't know if there's a more sure tackler in the league than Fletcher. Orakpo would be huge on the outside as well, obviously.

I think the weaknesses would remain the same: Landry's ability to provide disciplined coverage and the wear & tear on the corners.

Exactly, Haynesworth in a 3-4 seems great, except when hes taking breathers and sitting out games.

Breathers? The dude looks like he's on a death bed sometimes!!!

My biggest concern would be landry. I'm not the most familiar guy when it comes to the 3-4 but it seems every 3-4 defense has an elite safety that needs to read pass or run fast (polamalu, ed reed). I don't trust landry to cover on any playaction or pump fake. When ed reed got hurt last year or the year before, and when polamalu got hurt this year, both their defenses struggled. So I think safety is a significant position in a 3-4, and that's my biggest worry. I wonder if its too much of a stretch to try and put landry at an outside linebacker. if, and only if, the redskins decide to run a 3-4

Jeremy81 wrote:My biggest concern would be landry. I'm not the most familiar guy when it comes to the 3-4 but it seems every 3-4 defense has an elite safety that needs to read pass or run fast (polamalu, ed reed). I don't trust landry to cover on any playaction or pump fake. When ed reed got hurt last year or the year before, and when polamalu got hurt this year, both their defenses struggled. So I think safety is a significant position in a 3-4, and that's my biggest worry. I wonder if its too much of a stretch to try and put landry at an outside linebacker. if, and only if, the redskins decide to run a 3-4

tTiT doesn't have an elite safety. Landry's way too small for LB.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Jeremy81 wrote:My biggest concern would be landry. I'm not the most familiar guy when it comes to the 3-4 but it seems every 3-4 defense has an elite safety that needs to read pass or run fast (polamalu, ed reed). I don't trust landry to cover on any playaction or pump fake. When ed reed got hurt last year or the year before, and when polamalu got hurt this year, both their defenses struggled. So I think safety is a significant position in a 3-4, and that's my biggest worry. I wonder if its too much of a stretch to try and put landry at an outside linebacker. if, and only if, the redskins decide to run a 3-4

tTiT doesn't have an elite safety. Landry's way too small for LB.

They have Ken Hamlin who would start here.

I'm hoping a new coach with a fresh look at Landry will straighten him out. Landry has shown flashes of elite ability. Hopefully Horton gets back to his rookie level next year, but I wouldn't be suprised to see us pursue a big time coverage safety to place next to him.

There are a bunch of players here on both offense and defense that are hopefully about to experience a very different way of life as a player for the Washington Redskins - I think the discipline factor has been lacking here for a while - I am feeling that both Shanahan and Allen are very cogniscant of this

Landry has the talent and the experience to be a leader on this defense - I am hoping that someone can come in here and straighten him out because he can be a big factor if he gets his head in the right place - I'm not sure that's still possible but that guy just has too much to offer to throw him away

there are a number of players here that are about to realize this is not just a place to come and be paid the big bucks without giving a lot more effort than they have been doing recently - this applies to the off season activities as well as what happens during the season

if players cannot dedicate themselves to being better each and every day then they should find somewhere else to go

If we're going to switch to a 3-4, now is the time. Do it when everything is fresh so both the offense and defense can start from scratch. Let's gut it all if we gon do it.... What's it going to hurt?