The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

From a business perspective I've never been sold on Snyder, but I totally admit I've stated the ongoing attacks on him are overstated based on what had happened so far and that he had improved if not enough.

But the decision to undercut the team leader from a business perspective is one of the most idiotic I have ever seen in any industry in my life. Zorn is the manager of the team, what Snyder has succeeded in doing is to remove any credibility Zorn has as current coach and now clearly send the message to any future candidate he will step in and cut them off at the knees. And to what benefit? A further bastardized system and leadership chaos in order to change the play calling?

This is just an idiotic decision by a self absorbed power hungry man child which is going to harm the team and himself for a decade even if he were to realize how badly he screwed up today. This will be a lasting legacy anyone who would ever consider working for him will find impossible to ignore.

Kudos in stupidity also go to Zorn for not quitting when Danny chopped off his pecker and for Lewis to agree to such an abomination of a system.

I offer the greatest Kaz insult to Danny. This is bad business.

RiC, before you declare total victory, I still don't get the "greed" part. But I will say that someone who can run a business like this is not going to create a winning NFL team, not ever.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:This is just an idiotic decision by a self absorbed power hungry man child which is going to harm the team and himself for a decade even if he were to realize how badly he screwed up today. This will be a lasting legacy anyone who would ever consider working for him will find impossible to ignore.

This is the most blatantly obvious move of several others which led some of us to give up on him earlier. We saw a pattern that was leading this team into self-destruction. It was not one or two isolated decisions and stupid moves but the pattern which led us in this direction. As opposed to many of you, some of us are not surprised about this chain of decisions. The only difference is that the panic button has been turned on.

Kudos in stupidity also go to Zorn for not quitting when Danny chopped off his pecker and for Lewis to agree to such an abomination of a system.

From a perspective of personal integrity, this is the worst decision he could have made. But, as opposed to you, I do not feel that this is due to stupidity. Let me explain please.

There is a power struggle going on. The owner is putting the HC in an embarrassing position to force his resignation. The HC is aware of the situation as he is willing to make the owner look exactly as you describe in this post. Each one is making the other look terrible DELIBERATELY.

I offer the greatest Kaz insult to Danny. This is bad business.

Indeed. Whether you feel that this is just a business or it is an institution that is business -and- more as an institution which can provide values in a paradigm for life with a long tradition and a loyal following, the damage is enormous.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:RiC, before you declare total victory, I still don't get the "greed" part. But I will say that someone who can run a business like this is not going to create a winning NFL team, not ever.

First of all, it gives me no pleasure to see the facts before me. It gives me no pleasure to witness my worst fears become reality. I certainly declare no victory at one of the lowest moments in my life as a fan of the Washington Redskins. So, I am quite alright with your recognition of the problem and your honesty to accept the fact. I respect this action very much.

Second, let me explain the GREED part:

This sad comedy of errors between Snyder and Zorn has two reasons: Ego and Money.

EGO

Snyder is so angry at Zorn that he wants to and effectively is humiliating him to the point of public ridicule nationwide. He feels he was deceived during the interview process.

Zorn also feels betrayed because he was not given the players he needed to succeed but he also was not given the patience, time and support to succeed.

So, instead of each taking the honourable route and either fire a coach or resign as a coach, they have taken the path to exhibit one another as the worst coach and the worst owner in the NFL. Interestingly, both have achieved GREAT success. Unfortunately, this is at the expense of the Washington Redskins organization and fans.

MONEY

You do not get the greedy part. Let me tell you where it comes in: If Zorn resigns, he is not owed the money for the remaining part of his contract. So, Snyder would save several millions if Zorn resigns or is forced to rsign.

Zorn, on the other hand, may be a poor play caller but he certainly discovered, or was told by Largent or others, about this maneuver. So, when the Zorn met with Vinny and Snyder on Sunday evening, according to Largent, Zorn refused initially to give up play calling and they pulled the contract to remind him about the clause which establishes that the HC should follow the orders of the owner. He had to either do the honourable thing, resign, or put up with the ridicule and make the owner pay several millions knowing full well that firing is only a few weeks away.

So, greed comes when, at the expense of the reputation of a whole organization, saving a few millions owed in a contract to the head coach are more important than the collective ridicule and loss of discipline and morale of the entire Team.

Is it stupid not to sacrifice a few million, less than five, for a franchise worth over a BILLION dollars? You know the answer better than anybody else in this board.

That is why this owner represents: INCOMPETENCE, GREED and FAILURE.

Peace brother and welcome to join the rebellion.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:From a business perspective I've never been sold on Snyder, but I totally admit I've stated the ongoing attacks on him are overstated based on what had happened so far and that he had improved if not enough.

But the decision to undercut the team leader from a business perspective is one of the most idiotic I have ever seen in any industry in my life. Zorn is the manager of the team, what Snyder has succeeded in doing is to remove any credibility Zorn has as current coach and now clearly send the message to any future candidate he will step in and cut them off at the knees. And to what benefit? A further bastardized system and leadership chaos in order to change the play calling?

This is just an idiotic decision by a self absorbed power hungry man child which is going to harm the team and himself for a decade even if he were to realize how badly he screwed up today. This will be a lasting legacy anyone who would ever consider working for him will find impossible to ignore.

Kudos in stupidity also go to Zorn for not quitting when Danny chopped off his pecker and for Lewis to agree to such an abomination of a system.

I offer the greatest Kaz insult to Danny. This is bad business.

RiC, before you declare total victory, I still don't get the "greed" part. But I will say that someone who can run a business like this is not going to create a winning NFL team, not ever.

Nice post Kaz totally agree except for Zorn if you have ever coached you know there a bond betweenn you and your players...hard to quit on them. He is liked by them as evidence by the players taking a let's win one for hin attditude this week. And I think Zorn has to look out for his future bot in terms of $$$ nad job.
I also don't agree with the he's in it for the money crowd...not doubt HE wants to win.

DEHog wrote:I also don't agree with the he's in it for the money crowd...not doubt HE wants to win.

EVERYBODY, I mean everybody among former players, the media, fans and even current players know that he is gone. It is just a mater of when.

So, I have no doubt that money is at stake. From Zorn's perspective, you can argue that this is a way to return the humiliation to Snyder but I am sure that a few millions in the bank are better than not having them when you are run out of a job in such conditions.

I am convinced that Zorn wanted to win. But he never had a chance. This was the wrong team with the wrong players with the wrong Front Office at the wrong time to start a WCO experiment from a power run style of team. The job was over his head as a coach who had never had a position of responsibility higher than QB coach. It was a desperate and stupid choice by the Front Office and we know who they are and the process that took place to arrive at this hiring.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

DEHog wrote:I also don't agree with the he's in it for the money crowd...not doubt HE wants to win.

EVERYBODY, I mean everybody among former players, the media, fans and even current players know that he is gone. It is just a mater of when.

So, I have no doubt that money is at stake. From Zorn's perspective, you can argue that this is a way to return the humiliation to Snyder but I am sure that a few millions in the bank are better than not having them when you are run out of a job in such conditions.

I am convinced that Zorn wanted to win. But he never had a chance. This was the wrong team with the wrong players with the wrong Front Office at the wrong time to start a WCO experiment from a power run style of team. The job was over his head as a coach who had never had a position of responsibility higher than QB coach. It was a desperate and stupid choice by the Front Office and we know who they are and the process that took place to arrive at this hiring.

I think it's about pride.

"I'm not gonna quit, you gotta run me outa here."

That's what I think it's about.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

DEHog wrote:I also don't agree with the he's in it for the money crowd...not doubt HE wants to win.

EVERYBODY, I mean everybody among former players, the media, fans and even current players know that he is gone. It is just a mater of when.

So, I have no doubt that money is at stake. From Zorn's perspective, you can argue that this is a way to return the humiliation to Snyder but I am sure that a few millions in the bank are better than not having them when you are run out of a job in such conditions.

I am convinced that Zorn wanted to win. But he never had a chance. This was the wrong team with the wrong players with the wrong Front Office at the wrong time to start a WCO experiment from a power run style of team. The job was over his head as a coach who had never had a position of responsibility higher than QB coach. It was a desperate and stupid choice by the Front Office and we know who they are and the process that took place to arrive at this hiring.

Sorry RIC I was speaking to Snyder...not Zorn.

DEHog wrote:Sorry RIC I was speaking to Snyder...not Zorn.

I have no doubt that Snyder would like to win a Lombardi Trophy as much as a capricious child demands a toy crying, kicking and screaming. Both endeavours appear to be pursued with the same degree of professionalism, determination and knowledge.

lil danny should hire himself as the HC

To me the greed thing is blatantly obvious with what you see in that stadium.

The brand has been over-commercialized, there's too much advertising in that facility and he's shoe-horned at least 10,000 too many seats in there.

There are some obstructed view seats in there that I would have to think twice about giving to a Dallas fan.

This is just an idiotic decision by a self absorbed power hungry man child which is going to harm the team and himself for a decade even if he were to realize how badly he screwed up today. This will be a lasting legacy anyone who would ever consider working for him will find impossible to ignore.

From PFT..

As the Washington Redskins continue to quickly unravel, the man who delivered the team's only three Super Bowl trophies could soon be coming back.
Again.
There's a rumor making the rounds that two-time former head coach Joe Gibbs could be returning in a role similar to the one occupied by Bill Parcells in Miami. Gibbs would be responsible for hiring a G.M. and a head coach, and otherwise stabilizing the franchise without grinding away as a head coach.
We reported earlier this month that owner Daniel Snyder still consults with Gibbs, and that the two men had dinner in Charlotte the night before the Redskins' loss to the Panthers.

I think it's going totake something like this for DS to even begin to get back into the good graces of the fan base...I'm hoping JG doesn't do it. IMO this franchise needs to put the 80's team behind them and find their own identity. I'd rather see Dungy in this role.

I am also concerned DEHog - for slightly different reasons

when Gibbs left he indicated that he had a very good relationship with Snyder and that he was going to stay in touch with Snyder and offer any suggestions that he felt might help - he indicated that he was not going to be a part of the organization in any capacity but that he would remain an advisor as such

This is just some more clever marketing by Snyder in my opinion - we are going to see some changes here but all that will really change will be that the names that Snyder is making checks out to
we have little chance of becoming a competitive franchise while Snyder remains in charge of anything to do with the coaches or the players

this is just spin control from the marketing guy

SkinsJock wrote:I am also concerned DEHog - for slightly different reasons

when Gibbs left he indicated that he had a very good relationship with Snyder and that he was going to stay in touch with Snyder and offer any suggestions that he felt might help - he indicated that he was not going to be a part of the organization in any capacity but that he would remain an advisor as such

This is just some more clever marketing by Snyder in my opinion - we are going to see some changes here but all that will really change will be that the names that Snyder is making checks out to
we have little chance of becoming a competitive franchise while Snyder remains in charge of anything to do with the coaches or the players

this is just spin control from the marketing guy

Great point..I can;t argue with that!!

You do not get the greedy part. Let me tell you where it comes in: If Zorn resigns, he is not owed the money for the remaining part of his contract. So, Snyder would save several millions if Zorn resigns or is forced to rsign.

THANK YOU!!! I don't understand why people don't get this. Does anybody really think Zorn is just being spineless and letting Snyder walk all over him? Does anybody really believe Zorn thinks he isn't going to be fired?

So if you're Jim Zorn you can either quit and walk away with nothing. Or you can hang in there, force Snyder to fire you and walk away with $6 million. I guarantee you if you were in Zorn's shoes, you would do EXACTLY the same thing.

Snyder is taking a total beating in the press for this whole shenanigan with Sherm Lewis too. Sorry, but Jim Zorn is doing exactly the right thing by not giving in to Snyder's petty moves to get him to quit.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

DEHog wrote:I also don't agree with the he's in it for the money crowd...not doubt HE wants to win.

EVERYBODY, I mean everybody among former players, the media, fans and even current players know that he is gone. It is just a mater of when.

So, I have no doubt that money is at stake. From Zorn's perspective, you can argue that this is a way to return the humiliation to Snyder but I am sure that a few millions in the bank are better than not having them when you are run out of a job in such conditions.

I am convinced that Zorn wanted to win. But he never had a chance. This was the wrong team with the wrong players with the wrong Front Office at the wrong time to start a WCO experiment from a power run style of team. The job was over his head as a coach who had never had a position of responsibility higher than QB coach. It was a desperate and stupid choice by the Front Office and we know who they are and the process that took place to arrive at this hiring.

I take the implication from your post that Zorn should have stayed with the power run offense, but how could he? There was no way a power run offense would work, given the problems with the OL. To change the style of play was the only option. Zorn's major fault as a playcaller was that he kept reverting to the power run style in crunch time and repeatedly met disaster. You can not run the ball when your OL is being repeatedly pushed back, stacked, and otherwise beaten.

Now, however, the OL has been weakened to the point that it can't pass protect either, even for short and medium range passes. What can be done at this point. Probably noting. Still, the sytle is not the main problem, especially now. We simply don't have the talent left on the OL to make any system go.

Here's a general observation of mine. Maybe you agree. It takes much more talent to make the running game work than it does to make a passing game work-- in relation, in particular, to the OL. An offensive lineman has to move or beat his man to open a hole for a runner. To protect a passer, the offensive lineman only has to create a standoff for several seconds.

Further, consistency in the running game is almost impossible when an OL is just average, not excellent. On any given play, too many good things have to happen to make the play successful, even for five yards. Block after block must be made or the play is stopped. For consistency to occur, the OL must be excellent.

We,of course, have a terrible OL, almost man for man. Portis' long run last week was a fluke, built not on our efforts, but on radially missed guesses on the part of players on defense who trapped themselves on the inside. We can't expect that to happen again. In fact, we can't even expect first downs built on the run. I think, frankly, we are doomed. But, if we want to try to win rather than just run out the clock on the ground, we've first got to get rid of the notion that we can run the ball effectively.

Regardless of who is at QB, we've got to fill the air with footballs. The power run system is gone. Finis. At least for this season.

DEHog wrote:Nice post Kaz totally agree except for Zorn if you have ever coached you know there a bond betweenn you and your players...hard to quit on them

I know what you're saying as someone who has been in very difficult management roles with organizations who have tended to be very loyal to me because I am straight with them and look out for them. However, you can't lead without respect and respect starts with yourself. This is such a flagrant move of bone headed disrespect by Snyder I don't see how players can respect someone who would allow himself to be treated that way by his own boss. I came out strongly against Snyder firing Zorn in mid season and still feel that way. And this move is 100 times the mistake that would have been.

As for future jobs, I think Zorn would have been better off quitting also. If I were another hiring owner, I'd have respected him for seeing out the season had Snyder not done this. That Snyder slapped him in the face so publicly and undercut him like this I'd have respected him more for resigning. The best thing Zorn could do now would be to resign and say as little as possible. Everyone knows why, it doesn't need to be said.

As for future coaches, we are so screwed now. I agree now any coach who would come to work for a guy who just publicly wench slapped his head coach has no self-repect to be willig to go into that situation.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

DEHog wrote:Nice post Kaz totally agree except for Zorn if you have ever coached you know there a bond betweenn you and your players...hard to quit on them

I know what you're saying as someone who has been in very difficult management roles with organizations who have tended to be very loyal to me because I am straight with them and look out for them. However, you can't lead without respect and respect starts with yourself. This is such a flagrant move of bone headed disrespect by Snyder I don't see how players can respect someone who would allow himself to be treated that way by his own boss. I came out strongly against Snyder firing Zorn in mid season and still feel that way. And this move is 100 times the mistake that would have been.

As for future jobs, I think Zorn would have been better off quitting also. If I were another hiring owner, I'd have respected him for seeing out the season had Snyder not done this. That Snyder slapped him in the face so publicly and undercut him like this I'd have respected him more for resigning. The best thing Zorn could do now would be to resign and say as little as possible. Everyone knows why, it doesn't need to be said.

I'm assuming you met Zorn and I was strongly against it as well...all that said...you think Zorn should walk away and leave 4 mil on the table.

I love how Zorn has played this he has exposed and finally proven what we have all suspected and he's going to leave with Danyy's $$$$

DEHog wrote:I'm assuming you met Zorn and I was strongly against it as well...all that said...you think Zorn should walk away and leave 4 mil on the table.

I love how Zorn has played this he has exposed and finally proven what we have all suspected and he's going to leave with Danyy's $$$$

I'm not sure what the first sentence means. As for walking away with the money, obviously I respect his right to do that, but you pay for everything one way or another. If he's willing to sell his respect for $4m, then I guess we've assigned a dollar value to Zorn's respect.

I can see your point Kaz but I think that Zorn will be looked at as what he has to offer and how he fits with whatever the potential team has - I don't think he will come out of this as bad as Snyder - I also would not rule out that Snyder might still fire him OR that Zorn might still decide he's had enough

this is a huge distraction for everyone but most of all for the franchise and the guys in charge

SkinsJock wrote: I don't think he will come out of this as bad as Snyder

Totally agree with that

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

DEHog wrote:I'm assuming you met Zorn and I was strongly against it as well...all that said...you think Zorn should walk away and leave 4 mil on the table.

I love how Zorn has played this he has exposed and finally proven what we have all suspected and he's going to leave with Danyy's $$$$

I'm not sure what the first sentence means. As for walking away with the money, obviously I respect his right to do that, but you pay for everything one way or another. If he's willing to sell his respect for $4m, then I guess we've assigned a dollar value to Zorn's respect.

Sorry I in now way see it as him selling his self respect in fact I think it takes more chacter to do what Zorn is doing...to resign would allow Danny to spin it anyway he likes.

As for walking away with the money, obviously I respect his right to do that, but you pay for everything one way or another. If he's willing to sell his respect for $4m, then I guess we've assigned a dollar value to Zorn's respect.

Give me a break.

If you're going to get totally hosed by Snyder like this, the least you can do is stick him for $6 million dollars.

riggofan wrote:

As for walking away with the money, obviously I respect his right to do that, but you pay for everything one way or another. If he's willing to sell his respect for $4m, then I guess we've assigned a dollar value to Zorn's respect.

Give me a break.

If you're going to get totally hosed by Snyder like this, the least you can do is stick him for $6 million dollars.

$4 Mil, to lose your dignity.. shoooot, where do I sign up? I can always buy my dignity back later

KazooSkinsFan wrote:If he's willing to sell his respect for $4m, then I guess we've assigned a dollar value to Zorn's respect.

The very same argument is valid for Daniel Snyder. This is a no win situation for BOTH of them but the biggest innocent losers are the franchise and the fans.

crazyhorse1 wrote:I take the implication from your post that Zorn should have stayed with the power run offense, but how could he? There was no way a power run offense would work, given the problems with the OL. To change the style of play was the only option. Zorn's major fault as a playcaller was that he kept reverting to the power run style in crunch time and repeatedly met disaster. You can not run the ball when your OL is being repeatedly pushed back, stacked, and otherwise beaten.

He should have stayed with the power run -IF- and only -IF- he had great reinforecements at the OL. It was SUICIDE to put a hybrid system in play to establish a power running game as a bail out for a failed passing WCO.

The situation reminds me of the long line of domino pieces one pushing the other to the ground.

1. The WCO passing does not work because there are protection problems and an unsuitable QB to run it.

2. The lack of a passing game forces the team to go to the power run as a desperate measure with a weak OL.

3. The running game fails.

4. As a result of the failed running game, the clock and opportunities go to the other team's offense. and they control the clock.

5. Our heroic (or quasi-heroic at times) defence plays hard but it becomes exhausted.

6. Opposing teams score more that 14 points.

7. Game over.

We simply don't have the talent left on the OL to make any system go.

Not even a wildcat.

It takes much more talent to make the running game work than it does to make a passing game work-- in relation, in particular, to the OL.

Particularly a game-control power-running game team which sets the pass after it established the run.

Further, consistency in the running game is almost impossible when an OL is just average, not excellent.

Good Washington Redskins teams ALWAYS not good but DOMINANT OLs.

I think, frankly, we are doomed. But, if we want to try to win rather than just run out the clock on the ground, we've first got to get rid of the notion that we can run the ball effectively.

We would have had a chance with a QB that creates imbalances, runs for his life, has a strong arm with a quick realease, and is a hell of a lot smarter than almost anything we have had since 1992. A Drew Brees kind of saviour.

Regardless of who is at QB, we've got to fill the air with footballs. The power run system is gone. Finis. At least for this season.

Why does this sentence remind me of the body bag game against Philthy on Monday Night November 12, 1990 ??? !!!

SHOOOOOOT !!!!!

Is today Monday?

Do we play against Philthy ?

Do we have an OL?

Oh my .... OUCH!!! Please bring a new set of body bags and a substitute for Randle El after Collins, after Campbell ...

Oh my ... it does not look good at all. I am serious.

Would you cheer for him if (and that is a huge if) we won the super bowl and he was hoisting up the trophy to make a speach? I would not. His ownership of this team may be a dealbreaker on me continuing to follow the NFL. If not cheering on the Skins, I would ban the entire league.

This is a huge opportunity to reel me back in. His decision at the end of the year will make or break my fanhood. I'm that fed up with him. If he chooses wisely and brings in a no-nonsense GM who brings in a great coach and they build through the draft, I'm in. Otherwise, I don't know man. I'm really tired of this crap, but I love this team so much. It would be hard. I used to be so proud to be a Skins fan, now, I'm so embarrassed.