The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Jay Glazer: Firing Zorn isn't the answer ... right now, at least. It makes much better sense then to clean house at the end of the year.

Right now, the Redskins need a bonafide personnel guru/GM there. Right now, Dan Snyder is the GM and Vinny Cerrato is their personnel guy there. That's not working.

I tell you what their biggest mistake was. They never should have fired former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams. There was friction there between Cerrato and Williams, mostly from Cerrato towards Williams.

Here's the thing, the team made a mistake in the original hiring of Zorn in the first place. Williams wanted to stay in Washington (Williams was defensive coordinator from 2004-07), he wanted that job and wanted to be a company guy. But my sources tell me it was Cerrato who didn't want that.

Here's a guy that defenses have always played extremely well under. I've had so many players over the years tell me that they didn't like playing against the Redskins, and it was because of Williams and his defense. In fact, I know that Jim Fassel also told the Redskins that in his own job interview when both were candidates in early 2008.

Obviously, Daniel Snyder and company will have their pick of the type of guys Snyder likes this offseason — big-name guys with big-league resumes. But I just hope that whomever he picks — whether it's a Mike Holmgren or a Mike Shanahan type — they also bring in a strong personnel man. In my opinion, that was Shanahan's downfall in Denver when he carried both titles, and remember that even Holmgren was stripped of his GM duties in Seattle.

The Redskins need a strong coach, but also need that strong personnel guy along with him.

I don't think they'd be in this position if they had gone with the obvious choice.


http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/10 ... e-on-Skins


I know alot you guys on here don't agree, but I agree with Glaze on this one. I thought we should've hired Gregg Williams.

Jay Glazer seems to agree with what I've been saying for weeks! That's always nice.

Look at what the Jets, Falcons, Ravens and others have done with strong personnel departments and good head coaches. Almost immediate turnarounds... we badly need that for the Redskins

if that is true (and i would have to think it is) with vinny not liking gregg williams for what ever reason, i would love to know what was so bad that he did not want him as a HC (esp when he wanted it).


my guess is GW took his parking spot on a cold day in january

we really just need to see the players playing as well as they can and a better job from the coaches - we may still need a number of players at certain positions but this team just needs to unite

most here know that I would love to see us get a FO like the Ravens and other successful teams have but what we have is not neccessarily going to change here and really we have the talent in both the players and coaches - it has just not been evident the past 2 weeks

I hope that the team responds to the crowd this week (I'm sure they will feel their frustration before the game) and starts to play better - we will most likely need some key players but it would be best for this franchise if Zorn can somehow show that he's an NFL coach - I think that changing the cullture here will be a longer term process

I think in a way Joe Gibbs kind of screwed the Redskins. He should have been building us into a winning team and he should have stayed along as a VP to oversee the organization but he never installed his own personnel man, he didn't finish his contract and he didn't make it clear enough that Gregg Williams was specifically groomed to take over when he left.

The whole second tenure was a mess.

Skinsfan55 wrote:Jay Glazer seems to agree with what I've been saying for weeks! That's always nice.

Look at what the Jets, Falcons, Ravens and others have done with strong personnel departments and good head coaches. Almost immediate turnarounds... we badly need that for the Redskins

I know the new GMs of those teams picked them but you left off the most important change, their new QBs.

skinsfan#33 wrote:I know the new GMs of those teams picked them but you left off the most important change, their new QBs.

Personally I don't think that's the most important change.

If the Redskins had gotten Mark Sanchez, Matt Ryan or Joe Flacco we would not be as successful. For one, the Redskins don't have the support system in place for a new QB. The offensive line, the running game, the receiving corps... it's just not there. The Jets had a very solid team before Sanchez, it was the best offensive team in their history. The Falcons got Turner and drafted Sam Baker to protect Ryan in addition to having Roddy White and others. With Joe Flacco the Ravens had a good running game, smart receivers, and a solid line. They even drafted Michael Oher this season to keep him protected.

Not only are those QB's being introduced the the NFL properly and having the offensive system adjusted to their strengths... but they are being supported and surrounded by talent. If Jason Campbell had come out in the same class as Flacco or Ryan and had gone to those other teams he would be considered a much better QB, but the fact is, we probably ruined his career as a starter.

If we're committing to the WCO with Holmgren as the GM and Zorn, Mooch or Gruden as the HC then we need to find a QB who will be able to play West Coast style. Someone who can make the right reads and get the ball to the wideout at exactly the right time... and that guy may be a rookie or we could trade for a vet (the way famous WCO QB's have been traded for like Favre, Hasselbeck, Young, and Gannon). It doesn't matter where the guy comes from, just that we get him.

Skinsfan55 wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:I know the new GMs of those teams picked them but you left off the most important change, their new QBs.

Personally I don't think that's the most important change.

If the Redskins had gotten Mark Sanchez, Matt Ryan or Joe Flacco we would not be as successful. For one, the Redskins don't have the support system in place for a new QB. The offensive line, the running game, the receiving corps... it's just not there. The Jets had a very solid team before Sanchez, it was the best offensive team in their history. The Falcons got Turner and drafted Sam Baker to protect Ryan in addition to having Roddy White and others. With Joe Flacco the Ravens had a good running game, smart receivers, and a solid line. They even drafted Michael Oher this season to keep him protected.

Not only are those QB's being introduced the the NFL properly and having the offensive system adjusted to their strengths... but they are being supported and surrounded by talent. If Jason Campbell had come out in the same class as Flacco or Ryan and had gone to those other teams he would be considered a much better QB, but the fact is, we probably ruined his career as a starter.

If we're committing to the WCO with Holmgren as the GM and Zorn, Mooch or Gruden as the HC then we need to find a QB who will be able to play West Coast style. Someone who can make the right reads and get the ball to the wideout at exactly the right time... and that guy may be a rookie or we could trade for a vet (the way famous WCO QB's have been traded for like Favre, Hasselbeck, Young, and Gannon). It doesn't matter where the guy comes from, just that we get him.

This mantra can be repeated 1000 times and it won't make it true. All three of the QBs mentioned would be a major upgrade, and would have a much greater impact on the offense than any other single change that could be made. To ignore the role of the QB in a productive offense is to ignore the importance of an engine in a race car. It's simply the most important part. And if the car is sputtering and backfiring, changing the tires or the clutch or the transmission is not the logical step.

One of the easiest things for a Redskin fan to do is recall the old hogs o-line. One of, if not the best in history. This is a different era, and you're not likely to see an o-line of that quality again, and you certainly better not wait for it to happen. So complaining that we don't have an o-line that can play well enough for anyone to be successful is just a crutch.

Last year, before injuries impacted the o-line, the Redskins had the leading rusher in the NFL, often having as many or more yards rushing than Campbell was passing for. This demonstrated that not only was the o-line not as horrible as some suggest, but also that Portis is still a top notch back. So, during the slide last year, the major complaint was pass protection.

This year, pass protection has been fine, and the complaint is the inability to run, ignoring the possibility that perhaps the lack of success passing is allowing the opponents to focus on stopping the run. In 2007, it was the receivers that were the problem. There's always an excuse ready to absolve Campbell's poor decision making and failure to make plays, even though we saw an immediate doubling of production on offense when Collins came in in 2007 ... with those same receivers and o-line.

Some say that was because of his knowledge of Saunders system that allowed Collins to be so successful. Fine. For argument's sake let's agree that was the case. That still proves that proper execution from the QB was the primary issue, and not because receivers couldn't get open or catch, or that the o-line wasn't providing adequate time to pass. They may have not been providing Campbell adequate time to pass, but that's because he REQUIRES more time to read coverages and make decisions. Not a fault of the o-line. It's so bloody obvious that it amazes me how someone can continue to argue these points. It's like arguing that it's "midnight" with the sun beating you in the face.

In the another thread, the link to still shots of Campbell throwing into double coverage with an open receiver being overlooked ... and a short rout being thrown to, with a man open deep, are the issues which have haunted this offense. Just because some of these plays may result in completions, and show up as productive stats in a box score, doesn't negate the fact that they were still poor decisions that produced less optimal results.

Campbell's vision has proven to be rather limited, focusing on a particular target while not seeing other more potentially productive options. And he does this repeatedly, and has been doing so for his entire career, including college. This explains the lack of scoring.

It also explains why ARE may have a big day one week, while the next week may see Moss making all the catches, followed by ey being the go to guy the following week. I don't consider it reasonable to think that these receivers are being shut out or that they are failing to show up on any given Sunday. To ignore the role of the QB in scoring points is to ignore what all high scoring teams have ... a good QB.

Now here we are, talking about coaching changes again. Rebuilding the entire team. Blow it up, blame the owner, and the other 51 players. Total nonsense.

This team may not be stacked with pro bowlers, but there is sufficient talent at the most critical positions to be successful. Sure, more youth and depth on the 0-line is needed. But that could be said of all but the most fortunate teams, and is not a reason for failing to utilize the talent that does exist. It's simply an excuse for poor execution, and a lack of ability to overcome weaknesses while capitalizing on strengths.

As a Redskin fan, I just can't imagine why so many want to make excuses for one player, while bad mouthing several others. Get rid of Moss .. Portis is done ... the o-line sucks .. ARE is useless ... the defense is terrible ... the HC should be fired ... and Jason .. almighty Jason is getting a raw deal. I just don't get it.

I don't know if Zorn can be a good HC. I question some of his decisions. And I don't know if his offense is viable ... considering the lack of points being scored. But those same questions were being raised about Gibbs conservative play calling, and Saunders overly complex playbook back in 2007 as the Redskins were struggling with a 4 game losing streak and on the verge of elimination from post season play. Campbell got hurt, Collins came in, and the Redskins proceeded to average 26 points a game with a different QB. This, to me, vindicated Gibbs and Saunders offense as the culprit, while confirming their less than stellar personnel decisions.

I think it would be wise to consider making a change at QB before firing the coach and blowing up the entire team ... given what we already know.

I read through that reply but I still don't know what you were saying was wrong in my post.

Though to expound on your analogy, the QB is like the engine on a race car... if there's no body around it, and if the pit crew sucks it can't possibly live up to they hype.

Skinsfan55 wrote:I think in a way Joe Gibbs kind of screwed the Redskins. He should have been building us into a winning team and he should have stayed along as a VP to oversee the organization but he never installed his own personnel man, he didn't finish his contract and he didn't make it clear enough that Gregg Williams was specifically groomed to take over when he left.

Why? What does he owe this organization? The organization owes him. And I have heard, first person, from NUMEROUS NFL players that have made this same statement: I don't want to play in Washington because the front office is not organized and is in disarray. They don't have the correct amount of FO personnel needed to win. And a couple of these guys are DC kids whose dream was to play for the skins.

Within the NFL, the Wasington organization is known as having serious deficiencies in their FO. Gibbs was well aware that he would have issues overseeing the organziation and was aware that Snyder wouldn't give up the power necessary for him to effectively run it. On top of this, he wanted to spend time with his family and knew that this would take just as much time as being the head coach. Lastly, Gibbs was still a bit upset at the fact that Snyder would not let him bring back Bobby Bethert as well. That was Gibbs' first request, which was denied by Snyder --- which I don't understand because if Snyder was a true skins fan and not a narcasstic little twerp he would have done it. I don't blame him for leaving. He was smart to get out and not further water down his legacy. He's smart enough to know a sinking ship when he sees it.

Skinsfan55 wrote:I read through that reply but I still don't know what you were saying was wrong in my post.

Though to expound on your analogy, the QB is like the engine on a race car... if there's no body around it, and if the pit crew sucks it can't possibly live up to they hype.

Then you didn't read the post correctly. It makes sense.

Not that it matters now, but what was the real reason we passed on Gregg Williams?

gregory smith wrote:Not that it matters now, but what was the real reason we passed on Gregg Williams?

No sure.... maybe he wasn't a "YES" man

That's what I've thought all along. Strong personality....etc.

markshark84 wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:I read through that reply but I still don't know what you were saying was wrong in my post.

Though to expound on your analogy, the QB is like the engine on a race car... if there's no body around it, and if the pit crew sucks it can't possibly live up to they hype.

Then you didn't read the post correctly. It makes sense.

Made sense to me too, but then SF55 will never understand that a good QG makes an average OL, WR, and running game better. He just can't get how significant that possition is.

If I were using a race car analogy I would have the QB as the driver. Lots of races have been won by really good drivers with so-so cars. And plenty of average drivers have wrecked the best car on the tracked.

Our QB has no idea where the gas pedal is, but sure as heck knows where the brake is. Everytime he has an opening to make a pass, he waits too long or takes the wrong lane. He just keeps making laps, sometime he gets his car near the front, just to watch someone else take the checkered flag.

He is a nice enough guy but can't find victory lane with a Tom Tom and a seeing-eye dog!

I think they should've went with GW because..

1. He actually wanted the job.

2. (More importantly) The players wanted him.