The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I've been watching this team since we drafted Heath Shuler (all bad years) and this is the best team we've assembled, period. There has never been this much talent on both sides of the ball and although this could just be my opinion, Zorn seems to have a better football mind than every head coach we've had unless you want to argue for Marty Schottenhiemer. Gibbs, like Zorn, was also able to ceate an environment where the team vouched for each other and refused to fall apart when times got tough. The difference is that a Zorn/Campbell offense seems to move the ball down the field where Gibbs/Brunell moved laterally and after just a season and three games to put it all together. Everyone would be on the bandwagon if we had started 3-0, even with ugly wins, and we would all be talking about the easy schedule, improving, and general positivity.

If we start over right now or at the end of the season, the next head coach will struggle as he creates his own roster and team identity. This fan base is unloading 17years of frustration on Jim Zorn three games out of his rookie year because we don't look like the franchises that win year in, year out. The last 20 games for the lions have been incrementally more urgent and it was bound to happen to somebody. If what Zorn was doing was Busch league than he wouldn't have the support of the players after a game like this. Zorn made it to an 8-8 season with Gibb's smashmouth personnel and no one wants to talk about that as an accomplishment, as if he was supposed to go 6-2 in both halves of the season and just cruise on to the superbowl.

The first season was a chance for Zorn to implement his system and adapt to Gibbs' personnel and he went 8-8. This year is the year where the players BUILD chemistry like some of the great franchises in the league. Are we really going to start from scratch because we haven't gotten into the end zone with the 13th ranked offense at 1-2?

It's the whining and piggyback blaming that's kept us from establishing a franchise. Snyder wants what the fans want, but the fans contadict themselves every week. Now people are saying we need a GM, because Kevin Sheehan and other talk show hosts said so. THIS IS JUST A GUESS!!! Sure, it does make sense for most teams but this team right now has what it needs to win if given the time. The truth is no one really knows what the problem is and it's been that way for years. That's why no one can agree on whether Campell, Zorn, Portis, Oline, Vinny, Snyder or even on down to the damn waterboy is the true ailment of this team. Continuity is the only way to consistently win against people who get paid millions to win, bottom line. It's not as easy as saying our problems will go away when we get a team that can win.

Keep the Faith - Hail to the Redskins -

BurgundyandGoldfaith wrote:... Now people are saying we need a GM, because Kevin Sheehan and other talk show hosts said so. THIS IS JUST A GUESS!!!

It is a WRONG guess. We have been saying this like ... FOEREVER !!!

Do a SEARCH for Snyder and or Cerrato in the threads.

What a joke this post is.

BurgundyandGoldfaith wrote:I've been watching this team since we drafted Heath Shuler (all bad years) and this is the best team we've assembled, period. There has never been this much talent on both sides of the ball and although this could just be my opinion, Zorn seems to have a better football mind than every head coach we've had unless you want to argue for Marty Schottenhiemer. Gibbs, like Zorn, was also able to ceate an environment where the team vouched for each other and refused to fall apart when times got tough. The difference is that a Zorn/Campbell offense seems to move the ball down the field where Gibbs/Brunell moved laterally and after just a season and three games to put it all together. Everyone would be on the bandwagon if we had started 3-0, even with ugly wins, and we would all be talking about the easy schedule, improving, and general positivity.

If we start over right now or at the end of the season, the next head coach will struggle as he creates his own roster and team identity. This fan base is unloading 17years of frustration on Jim Zorn three games out of his rookie year because we don't look like the franchises that win year in, year out. The last 20 games for the lions have been incrementally more urgent and it was bound to happen to somebody. If what Zorn was doing was Busch league than he wouldn't have the support of the players after a game like this. Zorn made it to an 8-8 season with Gibb's smashmouth personnel and no one wants to talk about that as an accomplishment, as if he was supposed to go 6-2 in both halves of the season and just cruise on to the superbowl.

The first season was a chance for Zorn to implement his system and adapt to Gibbs' personnel and he went 8-8. This year is the year where the players BUILD chemistry like some of the great franchises in the league. Are we really going to start from scratch because we haven't gotten into the end zone with the 13th ranked offense at 1-2?

It's the whining and piggyback blaming that's kept us from establishing a franchise. Snyder wants what the fans want, but the fans contadict themselves every week. Now people are saying we need a GM, because Kevin Sheehan and other talk show hosts said so. THIS IS JUST A GUESS!!! Sure, it does make sense for most teams but this team right now has what it needs to win if given the time. The truth is no one really knows what the problem is and it's been that way for years. That's why no one can agree on whether Campell, Zorn, Portis, Oline, Vinny, Snyder or even on down to the damn waterboy is the true ailment of this team. Continuity is the only way to consistently win against people who get paid millions to win, bottom line. It's not as easy as saying our problems will go away when we get a team that can win.

Keep the Faith - Hail to the Redskins -

Couldn't DISAGREE with this post more.

Gibbs, Schottenheimer, Pettibone, and even Turner can be argued to have better minds than Zorn.

This offense is ranked 29th in scoring. It is not 13th. That statement is ridiculous.

No one is taking 17 years of frustration out because we don't "win year in and year out". We have been to the playoffs 3 times since 1991. That is 3 years in 18 seasons. No one is asking for winning year in and year out -- only to stay competitive when the team has, in what people believe, the personnel to win.

Well we aren't 3-0, that is the reason for the fan anger. This team is underperforming. It doesn't take a genious to realize that if we were undefeated, the fans would be happy.

And the support of the players for Zorn is debatable. This team (see Deangelo, Portis, even ey's pause after the question of Zorn was telling) has not rallied behind Zorn via the media. There is no emotion behind what people think Zorn is doing. And for Zorn being Busch league --- have you watched some of the playcalling this season? The fact is that there is a lack of leadership, which is one of the components for why this team is grossly underperforming.

WE DO NEED A GM!!!! Anyone that thinks otherwise is flat out wrong. And the truth is that the problems this team has are GLARING!! How can you sit here and say that "no one knows what the problems are". Watch a game, it's not that difficult. I think that the fact that the team is 29th in scoring may have something to do with it ---- but yeah, maybe it is the waterboy .

Aaaahhhhh, the ignorance in this post really makes my blood boil.

BurgundyandGoldfaith wrote:I've been watching this team since we drafted Heath Shuler (all bad years) and this is the best team we've assembled, period. There has never been this much talent on both sides of the ball and although this could just be my opinion, Zorn seems to have a better football mind than every head coach we've had unless you want to argue for Marty Schottenhiemer. Gibbs, like Zorn, was also able to ceate an environment where the team vouched for each other and refused to fall apart when times got tough. The difference is that a Zorn/Campbell offense seems to move the ball down the field where Gibbs/Brunell moved laterally and after just a season and three games to put it all together. Everyone would be on the bandwagon if we had started 3-0, even with ugly wins, and we would all be talking about the easy schedule, improving, and general positivity.

If we start over right now or at the end of the season, the next head coach will struggle as he creates his own roster and team identity. This fan base is unloading 17years of frustration on Jim Zorn three games out of his rookie year because we don't look like the franchises that win year in, year out. The last 20 games for the lions have been incrementally more urgent and it was bound to happen to somebody. If what Zorn was doing was Busch league than he wouldn't have the support of the players after a game like this. Zorn made it to an 8-8 season with Gibb's smashmouth personnel and no one wants to talk about that as an accomplishment, as if he was supposed to go 6-2 in both halves of the season and just cruise on to the superbowl.

The first season was a chance for Zorn to implement his system and adapt to Gibbs' personnel and he went 8-8. This year is the year where the players BUILD chemistry like some of the great franchises in the league. Are we really going to start from scratch because we haven't gotten into the end zone with the 13th ranked offense at 1-2?

It's the whining and piggyback blaming that's kept us from establishing a franchise. Snyder wants what the fans want, but the fans contadict themselves every week. Now people are saying we need a GM, because Kevin Sheehan and other talk show hosts said so. THIS IS JUST A GUESS!!! Sure, it does make sense for most teams but this team right now has what it needs to win if given the time. The truth is no one really knows what the problem is and it's been that way for years. That's why no one can agree on whether Campell, Zorn, Portis, Oline, Vinny, Snyder or even on down to the damn waterboy is the true ailment of this team. Continuity is the only way to consistently win against people who get paid millions to win, bottom line. It's not as easy as saying our problems will go away when we get a team that can win.

Keep the Faith - Hail to the Redskins -

Vinny, is that you?

Cut the kid a break. Read his first sentence that he has been a fan since Heath Shuler was drafted. This poor soul has never seen the Redskins as a winner in his approximate 20 years on the planet. Don't kill off his youthfull optimism, misguided as it may be. We should all gather round this young man and support him.

I for one agree with much of what the original poster said. I think there is way too much bitching and whining in Washington these days. Fans are looking for a scapegoat. Depending on where you look:

It's all Campbell's fault. Campbell sucks.
It's all Vinnie's fault. Vinnie sucks.
It's all Snyder's fault. Snyder sucks.
It's all Zorn's fault. Zorn sucks.

Blah blah blah.

I agree with the criticism on Snyder that for years he overspent and went for the "star power" rather than building a deep blue collar smashmouth team. Even now we have too many overpaid stars, while our lines, particularly the offensive line, is getting beat every week. Our backup linemen have virtually no experience. Clinton Portis is injured and old. As a result, we have no running game.

Instead of focusing on that problem, people are looking to chop off someone's head, and no surprise -- as always the top candidates are the quarterback and the head coach.

cleg wrote:Cut the kid a break. Read his first sentence that he has been a fan since Heath Shuler was drafted. This poor soul has never seen the Redskins as a winner in his approximate 20 years on the planet. Don't kill off his youthfull optimism, misguided as it may be. We should all gather round this young man and support him.

BurgundyandGoldfaith wrote:I've been watching this team since we drafted Heath Shuler (all bad years) and this is the best team we've assembled, period. There has never been this much talent on both sides of the ball and although this could just be my opinion, Zorn seems to have a better football mind than every head coach we've had unless you want to argue for Marty Schottenhiemer. Gibbs, like Zorn, was also able to ceate an environment where the team vouched for each other and refused to fall apart when times got tough. The difference is that a Zorn/Campbell offense seems to move the ball down the field where Gibbs/Brunell moved laterally and after just a season and three games to put it all together. Everyone would be on the bandwagon if we had started 3-0, even with ugly wins, and we would all be talking about the easy schedule, improving, and general positivity.

If we start over right now or at the end of the season, the next head coach will struggle as he creates his own roster and team identity. This fan base is unloading 17years of frustration on Jim Zorn three games out of his rookie year because we don't look like the franchises that win year in, year out. The last 20 games for the lions have been incrementally more urgent and it was bound to happen to somebody. If what Zorn was doing was Busch league than he wouldn't have the support of the players after a game like this. Zorn made it to an 8-8 season with Gibb's smashmouth personnel and no one wants to talk about that as an accomplishment, as if he was supposed to go 6-2 in both halves of the season and just cruise on to the superbowl.

The first season was a chance for Zorn to implement his system and adapt to Gibbs' personnel and he went 8-8. This year is the year where the players BUILD chemistry like some of the great franchises in the league. Are we really going to start from scratch because we haven't gotten into the end zone with the 13th ranked offense at 1-2?

It's the whining and piggyback blaming that's kept us from establishing a franchise. Snyder wants what the fans want, but the fans contadict themselves every week. Now people are saying we need a GM, because Kevin Sheehan and other talk show hosts said so. THIS IS JUST A GUESS!!! Sure, it does make sense for most teams but this team right now has what it needs to win if given the time. The truth is no one really knows what the problem is and it's been that way for years. That's why no one can agree on whether Campell, Zorn, Portis, Oline, Vinny, Snyder or even on down to the damn waterboy is the true ailment of this team. Continuity is the only way to consistently win against people who get paid millions to win, bottom line. It's not as easy as saying our problems will go away when we get a team that can win.

Keep the Faith - Hail to the Redskins -

No it's not the whining and complaining because ticket prices have gone through the roof and Snyder doesn't care about winning a Super-Bowl, he only cares about the bottom line. The franchise will never win until it has hit rock bottom and he sells. He is identical to the Tribune Company in Chicago, for years the Cubs sucked and the owner's would throw money around not to win only to fill seats. This is the same scenario and the Cubs haven't won in a hundred years, and as things go I don't see the Skins winning a Super-Bowl in the next hundred years. Look at the Cub's and you see a mirror image of the Skins (the past 17 years). Nothing will change unless people stop going to the games and filling Snyder's pockets. The glass isn't half full it's broken and there's nothing left.

wooly34 wrote:No it's not the whining and complaining because ticket prices have gone through the roof and Snyder doesn't care about winning a Super-Bowl, he only cares about the bottom line.

And owners that only care about the bottom line of the ledger sheet are doomed to the bottom line of the standings.

Keep the faith? The Redskins haven't rewarded our faith in the last 17 years.

I am not panicked whatsoever, I'm just resigned to the Redskins fate. The Redskins are one of the worst teams in the NFL today. We will get a top 5 draft pick and when we make some changes things will change.

Look at the elite teams today. The Patriots, the Colts, the Giants, the Steelers... They all have general managers and strong head coaches! They all have consistent plans carried out over time.

After Gibbs we promoted a long time assistant (which is almost always a mistake) and it went terribly. We had two awful drafts and Turner was in charge, he wasn't given much of a team to work with, but those were some of the Redskins best days in the last 17 years!

Next up was Marty Schottenheimer, who actually made a plan to build the team. His idea was to get rid of the high priced veterans and build through the draft. He was fired after ONE season. Do you know what Marty did next? He built the Chargers into a powerhouse!!! He had like 5 excellent drafts in a row!

The Redskins went to Joe Gibbs whom the game had passed by... and then to Zorn who was hopelessly unqualified.

As a franchise, the Redskins badly need a plan, and they need to stick to it. We need a general manager and a smart coach to work together as a team to find the players needed to carry out a cohesive system. Until we get that, we aren't ever going to pull out of this tailspin.

BurgundyandGoldfaith wrote:I've been watching this team since we drafted Heath Shuler (all bad years) and this is the best team we've assembled, period.

Oh man, I just barfed a little bit in my mouth. Thanks alot!!!!

You may actually be right about this being the most talented Redskins team in twenty years though. And judging from the results of all that talent, that's kind of sad, isn't it?

riggofan wrote:

BurgundyandGoldfaith wrote:I've been watching this team since we drafted Heath Shuler (all bad years) and this is the best team we've assembled, period.

Oh man, I just barfed a little bit in my mouth. Thanks alot!!!!

You may actually be right about this being the most talented Redskins team in twenty years though. And judging from the results of all that talent, that's kind of sad, isn't it?

I think Gibbs 2.0 2nd year 10 win team was the most talented given age and talent
Moss Portis were in their Prime so was Griff MW Springs, entire OLINE was much younger AND OF COURSE Sean was great

that fact you said yourself that this is the most talented team we have had in 20 years...

and we are 1-2 and it has been ULGY from the start, tells me and you all you need to know, this team is talented and is playing terrible


what does that tell you?

I think we have the talent to win, we just have to put it together. That's it.

NJ-SKINS-FAN wrote:that fact you said yourself that this is the most talented team we have had in 20 years...

and we are 1-2 and it has been ULGY from the start, tells me and you all you need to know, this team is talented and is playing terrible


what does that tell you?

It says we need a coach that instills discipline and the killer instinct..something we don't currently have.

wooly34 wrote:No it's not the whining and complaining because ticket prices have gone through the roof

Please stop with this ticket price crap. There are a whole truckload of reasons to dislike Snyder, but raising ticket prices is not one of them. The Redskins have raised ticket prices TWICE since Snyder took over the team (when the average NFL team raises ticket prices every other year). The Redskins ticket price is 9th highest in the NFL (about half the ticket cost for a Cowboys game). In fact, a ticket for a Skins game costs only 4 dollars more than the NFL average ticket price.

Source.

Note while the link goes to Redskins.com, the data was collected by an NFL-related 3rd party, so it's unrelated to the Redskins.

Talented Shmalented
HERES A TIDBIT

since the 1st half ended last year
were
3-8....AND RANK BOTTOM 5 IN SCORING ,3RD DOWN CONVERSIONS, BOTTOM 7 IN RUSHING AND BOTTOM 5 IN TD PASSES
played to a 9-7 win with RAMS AT HOME AND LOST TO LIONS

fellas--Talent my rear!

this 11 game body of work tells us weve been one worst teams in Football and alot must change ...ALOT!...beating the BUCS doesnt cure the overwhelming issues we have ....IT JUST PUTS A TEMPORARY BAND AID..IT DOESNT CHANGE ---we are 8 win team MAX!.9 if u believe in miracles..and were 4th place bound yet again

3-8 over 11..tells me even if we improve to 7-6 over next 13...ITS substantial IMPROVEMENT!...and guess were we land

8-8...WHAT UPSIDE...WHAT POTENTIAL--WOOHOO

I agree with a lot of this post... though I'd like a D with Sean Taylor, a healthy Sean Springs, and a healthy Marcus Washington better than this one... but we do have above average talent on this team, and we've been getting average or below average results for years... there are owners that won't spend the money it takes to get quality coaches and free agants, there are GMs that can't get big deals done, there are plenty of bonehead coaches... we could be way, way, way worse from top to bottom, yet the end result is still dysfunction... maybe the answer IS to be patient and suffer through the learning/chemistry curve and see what comes out the other end...

It's not gonna happen, but it's the only thing that hasn't been tried...

USAFSkinFan wrote:I agree with a lot of this post... though I'd like a D with Sean Taylor, a healthy Sean Springs, and a healthy Marcus Washington better than this one... but we do have above average talent on this team, and we've been getting average or below average results for years... there are owners that won't spend the money it takes to get quality coaches and free agants, there are GMs that can't get big deals done, there are plenty of bonehead coaches... we could be way, way, way worse from top to bottom, yet the end result is still dysfunction... maybe the answer IS to be patient and suffer through the learning/chemistry curve and see what comes out the other end...

It's not gonna happen, but it's the only thing that hasn't been tried...

Agreed about talent, its there, its just not showing up. Maybe its the wrong type of talent for our schemes? No idea...

My problem with the learning and chemistry curve thing is its the same offense, and defense. One new lineman, one new linebacker on D. One new starting receiver, one new starting guard on O. We were all led to believe that the team was "much further along" than it was last year, in regards to the offense. Everyone thought we upgraded the defense.

The only thing that makes sense is lack of effort or bad game planning/coaching.

Don't press the panic button? Are you kidding me?

That we have talent on this team is a fact which in and of itself says "time to panic!"

I don't recall a Redskin team that had so much and did so little with it than this squad and coaches. Going back to 2005, the team struggled mid season and went on a losing streak that just about wiped out the season, yet they were able to rally, and execute the '5 & 0 or we don't go' turnaround.

In 2007, a similar situation took place, including the death of ST, and then the starting QB went down. Yet, the team turned in a 4 & 0 or we don't go response.

Along comes Zorn with his WCO which should be relabeled WCS 'we can't score'. And after a miracle 6-2 star in 2008, the team has since TOTALLY IMPLODED. Since that slide began, this 3-8 record includes 2 wins in which we failed to score more than 10 points ... two very improbable wins of 10-3 against Philly, and 9-7 against the Rams, and a 3 point win over a struggling Seahawks team last year. For all practical purposes you might as well consider the Redskins to be 1-10 or even 0-11 in evaluating their overall performance.

Couple that with the addition of Haynesworth and Arakpo, and still no pass rush ... we are at DEFCON 5 ... the missile silos are on alert .. the Bombers are in the air, and the high command have taken to their bunkers ... but don't panic?

This embarrassment to professional football has reached a new low for an otherwise highly respected franchise, rich in tradition. Zorn and company have lost this team. Last week, they just quit in the first half ... both sides of the ball, and what do we hear from the coach? They're going to focus on the positives? Tell me Coach, after that 5 minutes is up, then what are you going to do?

I started out liking Zorn. It was a refreshing change to see a bit of unconventional wisdom employed around Redskin Park, and his openness and willingness to discuss details a departure from Gibbs politically correct, broken record pressers. But the more I hear, and the more I've seen tells me that we have a Captain who is steaming toward an iceberg and he's shouting "steady as she goes".

We actually have a coach that believes it takes a full three years for a QB to learn an offense, as he has often eluded to in discussions about Hasselbeck. Maybe it's just a case of Zorn being a very lousy teacher? Because no one else in the NFL seems to need three years to teach Flacco, Roethlisburger, Ryan, Sanchez, Stafford, Cutler, Rivers etc. etc.

I must say that it's impressive though, how the Redskins have been able to convince the NFL masses to discuss Jason Campbell as if each year he was a rookie. Here we talk about a 5th year veteran's need to improve footwork ... and remembering to step up in the pocket to avoid rushers, and the need to be patient given the complexities of learning an offensive system. And we talk about how this veteran QB needs to take baby steps ... 1st you learn how to not fumble ... then you learn how to not throw interceptions ... then you learn how to make first downs ... So, in year 5,6, & 7 we'll begin work on scoring TD's ???? GIVE ME A BREAK

Yes, we have the crowd that totally ignores what transpired in 2007 when Collins painted a huge, billboard sized sign that read: Yes We Can Score Points" as long as you have a QB that's been potty trained, and remembers (all by himself) to step up into the pocket to avoid 350 LB monsters who's sole purpose in life is to rip his freaking head off his shoulders. It shouldn't be a difficult thing to remember.

I guess, in this new age of War = Peace, and healthcare reform = how to poison the most people with dangerous prescriptions and vaccines, 'Don't Panic' = abandon ship immediately.

RayNAustin wrote:Don't press the panic button? Are you kidding me?

NOW you're talking my language, BAM, I'm with you!

Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God, hysteriaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Now let's run in circles grabbing our head and screaming like our hair's on fire until we get tired.

Panic, Panic, PANIC!!!

I'm going to stop now, I'm hyperventilating. How are you doing, Ray?

The problem is soup. He couldn't win with Gibbs or with Zorn. With Gibbs if he wouldn't have gotten hurt we never would have made the playoffs.

Skinsfan55 wrote:Next up was Marty Schottenheimer, who actually made a plan to build the team. His idea was to get rid of the high priced veterans and build through the draft. He was fired after ONE season. Do you know what Marty did next? He built the Chargers into a powerhouse!!! He had like 5 excellent drafts in a row!

This is the problem with Dan Snyder. He believes he can build a winning team by acquiring a bunch of high priced players instead of doing it the right way (like all other good teams do it) by building through the draft. This mindset of his has been proven not to work for over a decade now and you'd think he'd get the message, but he never does. This team will be nothing more than a scum-sucking basement dweller until we get a new owner. SNYDER NEEDS TO GO!!!!!!

grampi wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:Next up was Marty Schottenheimer, who actually made a plan to build the team. His idea was to get rid of the high priced veterans and build through the draft. He was fired after ONE season. Do you know what Marty did next? He built the Chargers into a powerhouse!!! He had like 5 excellent drafts in a row!

This is the problem with Dan Snyder. He believes he can build a winning team by acquiring a bunch of high priced players instead of doing it the right way (like all other good teams do it) by building through the draft. This mindset of his has been proven not to work for over a decade now and you'd think he'd get the message, but he never does. This team will be nothing more than a scum-sucking basement dweller until we get a new owner. SNYDER NEEDS TO GO!!!!!!

He's not going anywhere. So why even discuss it? He owns the frickin team.

I would normally agree with the building through the draft philosophy IF there was any reason to believe the Redskins could actually draft players of high calibre consistently.

Look ... we had 2 #1 picks in 2005 ... we used them on Campbell and Rogers, who in my opinion are barely worth a 2nd for both of them, and it set back this team for the past 4 years.

Kelly and Thomas last year? Thomas looks to be a complete bust, and Kelly isn't likely to remain healthy if he even starts performing at a respectable level.

How can you build a team by spending 2 #1's, and 3 #2's on Campbell, Rogers, Kelly and Thomas?

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

RayNAustin wrote:Don't press the panic button? Are you kidding me?

NOW you're talking my language, BAM, I'm with you!

Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God, hysteriaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Now let's run in circles grabbing our head and screaming like our hair's on fire until we get tired.

Panic, Panic, PANIC!!!

I'm going to stop now, I'm hyperventilating. How are you doing, Ray?

Zzzzzzz