The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Despite the issues with the O Line, I am worried that Portis has hit the dreaded 30 year old wall that seems to kill off more NFL running backs. I know he is only 28 but he came out of the U 2 years early and has had so many carries in his career.

I have no faith in Betts - could this be the real reason Mason was left on the team?

cleg wrote:Despite the issues with the O Line, I am worried that Portis has hit the dreaded 30 year old wall that seems to kill off more NFL running backs. I know he is only 28 but he came out of the U 2 years early and has had so many carries in his career.

I have no faith in Betts - could this be the real reason Mason was left on the team?

I was starting to have the same thoughts about CP. As you say it's sure not all his fault, but I'd feel better if he was inconsistent rather then increasingly consistently ineffective. As for Mason though, NOT. He finally cracked a roster because we're worried about our starter? I don't think so.

CP is having issues mainly because of the defenses he plays against --- most (and by most, I mean all) Ds put 8 in the box against our offense. It kills the running game. The inabiilty of JC to throw 20+ pass plays has ABSOLUTELY KILLED our running game. It also doesn't hurt that defenses know that we can only run to one side.

And I may be wrong but didn't the OL have to make adjustments to the passing protection that had an effect on the running game? I believe I heard vetskin say that.

markshark84 wrote:CP is having issues mainly because of the defenses he plays against --- most Ds put 8 in the box against our offense. It kills the running game. The inabiilty of JC to throw 20+ pass plays has ABSOLUTELY KILLED our running game. It also doesn't hurt that defenses know that we can only run to one side.

And I may be wrong but didn't the OL have to make adjustments to the passing protection that had an effect on the running game? I believe I heard vetskin say that.

Valid points you make and I hope you're right. I think cleg was saying and I was agreeing we're starting to get concerned, his age and position being factors. We've had OL issues the last several years and it seemed he was able to have some good games anyway. We're only three in, hopefully things will improve.

markshark84 wrote:CP is having issues mainly because of the defenses he plays against --- most (and by most, I mean all) Ds put 8 in the box against our offense. It kills the running game. The inabiilty of JC to throw 20+ pass plays has ABSOLUTELY KILLED our running game. It also doesn't hurt that defenses know that we can only run to one side.

And I may be wrong but didn't the OL have to make adjustments to the passing protection that had an effect on the running game? I believe I heard vetskin say that.

I hope you are right.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

markshark84 wrote:CP is having issues mainly because of the defenses he plays against --- most Ds put 8 in the box against our offense. It kills the running game. The inabiilty of JC to throw 20+ pass plays has ABSOLUTELY KILLED our running game. It also doesn't hurt that defenses know that we can only run to one side.

And I may be wrong but didn't the OL have to make adjustments to the passing protection that had an effect on the running game? I believe I heard vetskin say that.

Valid points you make and I hope you're right. I think cleg was saying and I was agreeing we're starting to get concerned, his age and position being factors. We've had OL issues the last several years and it seemed he was able to have some good games anyway. We're only three in, hopefully things will improve.

Not sure he's done but the Skins refuse to get and activate a change of pace guy will speed up that process.

DEHog wrote: Not sure he's done but the Skins refuse to get and activate a change of pace guy will speed up that process.

That's one of the problems. The other is Vinnie not using two of three picks he used to get Kelly, Thomas, and Davis on rebuilding the right side. But that is water under the bridge now and Zorn and Bugel have to make the necessary adjustments to accomodate or modify something. Teams make adjustments all of the time but we don't seen to....

Am I wrong though or has the offensive line not been that bad? I don't know enough to judge if they're doing a good job in running situations, but it seems like JC has had decent pass protection for the most part.

Is that true?

riggofan wrote:Am I wrong though or has the offensive line not been that bad? I don't know enough to judge if they're doing a good job in running situations, but it seems like JC has had decent pass protection for the most part.

Is that true?

I think pass protection has been better then run blocking

What CP is missing is the ability to hit the home run. He had a few wholes in Sundays game that AP, Sproles, Westbrook, Bradshaw, F Jones or several other backs would have taken atleast one to the house.

For the most part the holes weren't there, but CP lacks the speed or shiftyness to take advantage of holes when they are there.

He deffinately would be more effective behind a better line or with a passing game that scares people, but even then he would still lack that home run threat.

He was NEVER good at making DBs miss in the open field, but atleast he used to have a 6th gear to run away from people. But age and injury has wrung out his 5th and 6th gear and he is now limitted to 4th!

We converted him into a power back and didn't get a change of direction back behind him.

This team has a penchant for turning players into something that they are not. Clinton, Lavar, Randle El and now Orakpo. Had Clinton stayed in a system like Denver's, he'd be on his way to having Canton-like numbers. Instead, we bring him here, get him to put on weight which has taken away his speed and elusiveness. But to his credit though, he's still been able to put up some numbers. If Buckholder can stay healthy, look at what he will do in Denver this year. Denver's blocking system has been so good that they have been able to just plug and play their backs. They don't require their backs to be big hard runners like we do here.

roybus14 wrote:We converted him into a power back and didn't get a change of direction back behind him.

This team has a penchant for turning players into something that they are not. Clinton, Lavar, Randle El and now Orakpo. Had Clinton stayed in a system like Denver's, he'd be on his way to having Canton-like numbers. Instead, we bring him here, get him to put on weight which has taken away his speed and elusiveness. But to his credit though, he's still been able to put up some numbers. If Buckholder can stay healthy, look at what he will do in Denver this year. Denver's blocking system has been so good that they have been able to just plug and play their backs. They don't require their backs to be big hard runners like we do here.

Not the same Denver blocking system. CP wasn't that elusive in Denver. He just play in RB machine that was Denver and had great speed.

skinsfan 33. You are wrong about portis not hitting holes. there are not enough holes because the o-line is so terrible, portis has the ability to be a tp[ 4 or 5 running back in this league. He is quick and strong, he has though had way to many carries in his career which has hurt him badly. He is the toughest player on the team and point blank needs to touch the ball more. PERIOD.

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

markshark84 wrote:CP is having issues mainly because of the defenses he plays against --- most Ds put 8 in the box against our offense. It kills the running game. The inabiilty of JC to throw 20+ pass plays has ABSOLUTELY KILLED our running game. It also doesn't hurt that defenses know that we can only run to one side.

And I may be wrong but didn't the OL have to make adjustments to the passing protection that had an effect on the running game? I believe I heard vetskin say that.

Valid points you make and I hope you're right. I think cleg was saying and I was agreeing we're starting to get concerned, his age and position being factors. We've had OL issues the last several years and it seemed he was able to have some good games anyway. We're only three in, hopefully things will improve.

Personally, I don't think that age and "position" are factors. CP has proven that he can produce in very different types of offenses. He was able to produce in Denver, under Gibbs, and under Zorn (last year).

In terms of age, he hasn't reached that wall just yet. He is still well under 30. Granted he has carried the ball a number of times, but he still has gas left in his tank. The problem has been, over the past 13 or so games, the defensive schemes CP has ran against. It is no secret that the best asset a RB can have is a quality QB. Right now, defenses have been overloading the line, which makes it almost impossible to run the ball.

Also, it doesn't help that JC is slow to make reads and decisions in the pocket --- therefore, overloading the line and attacking the backfield is a no-brainer from a defensive playcalling perspective. That is why spreading the field is so important in football. The plays we have run this season have been overly predicatable and our QB does not posses the ability to pass the ball deep downfield or make quick reads --- things that would force defenses to move off the line. We have not consistently thrown the ball downfield. I would say that this has been a concern with this team that has been dramatically overlooked. It has been an issue longer than the defensive line's inability to get to the opposing QB --- which, IMHO has been upgraded this offseason.

In terms of position (if I understand the term correctly), CP has bent over backwards to adjust and alter his game. He has put on weight, run different running patterns, and carried the offensive load for this team over his tenure in Washington. He is one of the more versitale backs in the league. Now, I am of the opinion that we do need a 2 RB set up -- which has been very successful in the NFL. In no way am I saying that he shouldn't be the #1 RB, I am saying that we need an RB that can offer different talents to put defenses on their heels and force them to adjust to different offensive looks. And Betts, in no way shape or form, is that back. Betts is what I like to call a "wind-up toy". He runs and hits the holes, but does not have the ability to make lateral cuts or cause defensive personnel miss tackles. He is not a pure RB with God-given running talent. He goes down as soon as a defensive player hits him.

Now, our OL has their hands full this season. I am sure that their main focus in practice and offseason was the pass protection. This, IMHO, has been successful, but they overlooked the fact that our running game will directly suffer as a result. They have their hands full. IMHO, the OL is not the direct root issue. The offensive playcalling and the inability to throw the ball downfield are the direct causes of our running problems. The OL, once again, is banged up and we lack the ability to run the ball up the gut or to the left side. Running the ball to one side will make the right side of the line tired and the offense predictable. This was evident in both the Rams and Lions games. The OL, IMHO, has done a very good job given the circumstances they have been placed under. It is up to JC and Zorn to make the offense less predictable and more effective. JC has missed a number of open players downfield and we all know what Zorn has done wrong.

CP has proven, year after year, that he is a quality NFL RB. He has also done a very good job of keeping his mouth shut on the issues and not playing the blame game.

No RB, not ONE, can succeed when it is COMPLETELY predictable that you will run and when he does, he will run to the left because that is the ONLY place the coach "thinks" he can run.

Not only predictable in terms of a run play but even the direction of the play with a STACKED box of 8 defensive players. CP is a GREAT RB but come on, he is no superman.

How "little things" like a dysfunctional OL and no depth in it can hurt you eh?

There are things that can be done that aren't being done. Look a the Lions score ... it was a pitch left which gave the back room and time to build momentum and angle options to break the goal line. Have we seen a quick pitch out?

You can run from the spread, 4 wide that eliminates that stacked box in the red zone. Do we do this? I haven't seen it.

We put Portis on the sideline, and run Betts on third and goal. Then we bring Portis in on 4th and goal and run him left into a stacked defense and wonder why he loses a yard.

Do we try a naked boot with Campbell when the defense is stacked to our left side? Only when it's the punter on a fake FG.

I'm so unimpressed with Zorn's offense and his decision making at this point, I don't think he is any more fixable than Campbell is.

I think Jason and Jim need good real-estate agents. That's what I think.

When playing the lions, even if they know a run is coming, there should still be enough of a push to create a yard. That said

Teams do stack the box because they know there is nothing in the pass game that is consistent enough to put up a ton of points.

They know that

- They can single cover all receivers other than Moss, sometimes you can single cover him (corey webster)

- Campbell misses a lot of deep balls and there are no great (meaning great speed, great adjustments, great hands, great routes, i.e. Jennings, CJ, FItz.) downfield WR's on the team.

-They know that on at least one play out of three they will get extreme pressure on Campbell.

-They know that Moss drops passes or doesn't make tough catches most of the time.

-They know dumb plays and routes short of the first down marker will be run.

So why not stack the box? Like Ray said, spread it out, especially in the end zone. that will free up some space for portis, and possibly get someone open. Campbell is under pressure every play anyway and has done pretty good lately at avoiding sacks.

I think Portis is done too, but I would LOVE to be proved wrong.

I was thinking this yesterday. I don't know if it's that he isn't getting blocking or what, but he looks slow. He cant break tackles anymore and he looks used up to me. Nothing against CP, but a back only has so long in this league. He does not appear to have 'it' anymore. Sorry CP, love ya man...

northcarolinaredskin wrote:skinsfan 33. You are wrong about portis not hitting holes. there are not enough holes because the o-line is so terrible, portis has the ability to be a tp[ 4 or 5 running back in this league. He is quick and strong, he has though had way to many carries in his career which has hurt him badly. He is the toughest player on the team and point blank needs to touch the ball more. PERIOD.

Did you read my post? I said that when he has holes he can't make a DB miss and no longer has the speed to take things to the house. Never said he won't hit holes. More often than not there aren't any holes to hit, but when there are he gets 5 instead of 15, 15 instead of a 50 yard TD. He had two or three chances Sunday that an elite back would have taken at least one to the house.

He is no longer a game changer and other than pass pro I don't think you lose anything if he isn't on the team. Except maybe a headache.

skinsfan#33 wrote:

northcarolinaredskin wrote:skinsfan 33. You are wrong about portis not hitting holes. there are not enough holes because the o-line is so terrible, portis has the ability to be a tp[ 4 or 5 running back in this league. He is quick and strong, he has though had way to many carries in his career which has hurt him badly. He is the toughest player on the team and point blank needs to touch the ball more. PERIOD.

Did you read my post? I said that when he has holes he can't make a DB miss and no longer has the speed to take things to the house. Never said he won't hit holes. More often than not there aren't any holes to hit, but when there are he gets 5 instead of 15, 15 instead of a 50 yard TD. He had two or three chances Sunday that an elite back would have taken at least one to the house.

He is no longer a game changer and other than pass pro I don't think you lose anything if he isn't on the team. Except maybe a headache.

I think that is a fair assessment... They turned him into a power runner...

Portis is an elite back you cant expect him to get 50 yard runs when he doesnt touch the ball enough to establish himself by making those plays.

He can make DBs miss and Zorn should take the credit of Portis not getting done what he should be getting done. Are you guys forgetting through the first half of the season last year he would have been an MVP candidate I think ended top 5 in rushing and made the pro bowl.

He is an elite back I do not understand what you guys do not see in him.

northcarolinaredskin wrote:Portis is an elite back you cant expect him to get 50 yard runs when he doesnt touch the ball enough to establish himself by making those plays.

He can make DBs miss and Zorn should take the credit of Portis not getting done what he should be getting done. Are you guys forgetting through the first half of the season last year he would have been an MVP candidate I think ended top 5 in rushing and made the pro bowl.

He is an elite back I do not understand what you guys do not see in him.

No, he's no longer elite, but he's not "done" either. He's merely gone from great to pretty good, which means he's no longer a home-run threat, and he's not going to be productive if he doesn't have solid run-blocking (which the team is not giving him). And this "he needs to establish himself" excuse is just that - an excuse. Fred Taylor (who has a lot more mileage on him) has less attempts than Portis, but a higher average. An elite RB is expected to be productive on every carry, and not need to "warm up" for 10+ carries first.

Nothing like a bad start to bring up all the pessimism in the world eh?

Not ONE of you guys have addressed my argument:

Redskin in Canada wrote:No RB, not ONE, can succeed when it is COMPLETELY predictable that you will run and when he does, he will run to the left because that is the ONLY place the coach "thinks" he can run.

Not only predictable in terms of a run play but even the direction of the play with a STACKED box of 8 defensive players. CP is a GREAT RB but come on, he is no superman.

How "little things" like a dysfunctional OL and no depth in it can hurt you eh?

CP is the heart and souldof this offense as of now. And if he gives up on the coach, we are in trouble. That is my only question mark. He is still a GREAT player.

I know that Portis is revered on this website, by the fans of this team, and by Dan Snyder and the Front Office. I really like the guy as a player as I think he adds a lot to our team. He's productive at running the ball, a superior passblocker, and a decent receiving option. I love that he gives his all, every play.

However, I read this post on the Washington Post last week, and I've been stewing about on paragraph in particular.

In calling around about the Redskins' cap situation, I learned a few interesting things. We've known for some time that running back Clinton Portis received a huge payday when he signed his renegotiated deal in March 2008. But I didn't know Portis became the league's highest-paid player at his position, based on how contracts are calculated for determining that sort of thing.

Portis received a signing bonus of $9,325,500 as part of his deal that runs through 2013, league sources said. He has a cap number of a little more than $6.17 million this season but his base salary is only $745,000 because his signing bonus was spread over the length of the contract. Portis is scheduled to receive a $500,000 roster bonus and a workout bonus of a little more than $7,000.

According to this report, Portis is now the league's highest paid running back. As posted above, I really respect Portis; however, his on-field production isn't close to justifying his status as the league's highest-paid running back. In the NFL, the best players are generally compensated the best (Eli Manning notwithstanding). You pay the biggest money to the biggest playmakers, the guys who truly threaten the other team. While Clinton Portis may have been a playmaking thoroughbred in Denver, breaking long runs and scoring touchdowns, ever since he came to DC, Portis has instead merely been a plodding horse.

His average YPC since he's gotten to DC is hovering just north of 4 yards per carry (4.09 ypc); which is just about average for an NFL back. And as we all know, Portis is no longer a threat to break a long run, as he hasn’t done so since the first time he touched the ball in DC. That is, of course, unless you consider the one 30 yard run he gets a year as a long run. By and large, the best running backs in the NFL are a threat to go the distance on any play. Portis is a threat to go 4 yards on every play.

In fact, likely because he can’t break a long run, his production is on a rather serious decline. Yes, I know he almost had 1500 yards last year, but that mostly was due to the amount of carries he had. In fact, Portis has rarely has produced 100 yard rushing game over the past few seasons. In 2006, 2007 and 2008, out of 42 total games, Portis has rushed for over 100 yards in only 11 games. He’s also had games where he’s totally been shut down, including games where he’s put out 22 yards, 27 yards, 31 yards and 36 yards.

The problem is that having so much money invested in a player means you have to use him (thanks FO). But since Portis can't break a long run, it means that you're paying some one to be a gamebreaking playmaker, and that just isn’t Portis. That’s fine, if you can produce and dominate at the goal line, such as our own John Riggins used to do, or as Brandon Jacobs of the New York Giants does. However, Portis is just not a productive goal line back. His inability to plow over defenders means that he can’t earn the toughest yards, and, as a consequence, the running game completely stalls in the red zone (well, that combined with Zorn's idiotic play calling in the red zone, and our offensive line not run blocking the best). In essence, we’re stuck with a guy who can’t break long runs, and can’t dominate in the goal line. Yet is being paid as if he’s the best running back in the NFL.

He's not Adrian Peterson, who is clearly the best running back in the NFL at this point; he's not even close. He may not even be Michael Turner, who last year had a year better than Portis ever has had; or Frank Gore who two weeks ago broke two runs in one game, both of which were longer runs than Portis has ever had in 73 games in DC. No, Portis's production isn't close to those more elite running backs.

Instead, Portis’s rushing production is much more similar to the next tier of running backs, like Thomas Jones. Thomas Jones’ production with the Jets (over 34 games): 10 games of 100 rushing yards or more; and 4.06 yards per carry average. But Jones’ salary cap number is $2.5 million this year, less than half of Portis’s $6.25 million. It's hard to look at the production on the field and justify how much money Portis is earning.

Much as I love Portis, for the amount of money he is earning and costing the Redskins against the salary cap, there are numerous running backs I'd choose over him at this point. The problem is that by renegotiating his contract multiple times, the FO has paid him like a top performer, when he's clearly not anymore. And now we're stuck with a running back who can't break a long run, can't run over people in the red zone, and is basically a threat to go a whole 4-5 yards on a given play.