The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

coaching on both sides of the ball.

Defense -

This defense was set by GW and built around Sean Taylor. GW put together defensive packages based on being able to blitz and Sean bailing them out over the top. Now that Sean is gone, you don't have that but yet Blache still continues to run GW's style of defense. Rigid... Not taking advantage of the talent on it and letting them make plays....

You have a LB that is equal to Ray Lewis in Fletcher but you over complicate the defense so much so that he's the only one making plays. They are uninspired, undisciplined, and often confused. Each play, there seems to be alot of confusion with the LB's and secondary.

You draft a stud at DE and make him a LB. You put that kid on anyother team in this league and he's a DE. It's Lavar all over again. Yes, Lavar was undisciplined but his best attribute was rushing the passer and yet they (GW and Blache) were so rigid trying to make him a "system" LB that they wasted that talent. Now it's Orakpo turn to be wasted.


Offense -

No discipline.... No accountability... No fire from the HC.... For the second week in a row, this offense can't get a yard on the goal line and Zorn's attitude is "blah"... Any HC with a brain would have blown a gasket.

Over complicated offense and the inability to adjust you play calling to the talent you have. You work hard to get the ball to Santana but you forget about ey and running the ball. Jason Campbell is not Jeff Garcia or Hasselbeck. He's long, gangly, with a strong arm. As a so-called "QB Coach", he should have found a way by now to put in a system to suit Jason's strengths.

You have a mess at RB by not having a set change of pace guy behind Portis. Betts should have been traded in the off-season to shore of the O-Line because you can get a good change-of-pace back anywhere.

Yeah, I can understand a coach preferring one system to another but trying to install the WCO with this group of guys is like driving a square peg into a round hole. A coach should be able to adapt better than this.

So pretend I'm the owner. I give both Zorn and Greg the whole month of Oct...........to design gameplans and make things better. Deadline is Halloween fellas... Then the AXE come down.

The problem is not the coaches, not the players, not the anything. We have some very good coaches, very good players very good water boys, very good locker rooms, facilities etc. What we lack is a very good GM. Hell, we don't even have one.

We need a GM.

chiefhog44 wrote:The problem is not the coaches, not the players, not the anything. We have some very good coaches, very good players very good water boys, very good locker rooms, facilities etc. What we lack is a very good GM. Hell, we don't even have one.

We need a GM.

Why do we need a GM than??

DEHog wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:The problem is not the coaches, not the players, not the anything. We have some very good coaches, very good players very good water boys, very good locker rooms, facilities etc. What we lack is a very good GM. Hell, we don't even have one.

We need a GM.

Why do we need a GM than??

A valid question IMO

Question? If we fire Zorn, who is out there that wants this mess?
I have been a Skins fan since 1967, and this was one of our lowest moments, not the worst .. all said and done we are 1 & 2 and 13 games left, with Tampa Bay next.
Now, there needs to be some soul searching on both the players and Coaching staffs, I say give him a chance to right this, "short leash" and if he loses the locker room, then fire Zorn ...
We will forever be the answer to the trivia question
" who ended the the record for the worst team in history of the NFL"
"The Redskins".... doesn't go down too well does it ...

num1skinsfan wrote:if he loses the locker room, then fire Zorn ...

I'm not disagreeing with your overall conclusion in your post... but what suggests to you that Zorn has EVER "had" the locker room to lose?

Countertrey wrote:

num1skinsfan wrote:if he loses the locker room, then fire Zorn ...

I'm not disagreeing with your overall conclusion in your post... but what suggests to you that Zorn has EVER "had" the locker room to lose?

CT what suggests to you that he does'nt??

the hip hip hooray last year seemed convincing to me that he had the guys attention. Just don't know aout now.

DEHog wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

num1skinsfan wrote:if he loses the locker room, then fire Zorn ...

I'm not disagreeing with your overall conclusion in your post... but what suggests to you that Zorn has EVER "had" the locker room to lose?

CT what suggests to you that he does'nt??

Well on 980 they were just saying that Zorn doesn't have the type of resume that earns credibility/respect from the players. Not sure how true that is, but I've never gotten the impression that he is the leader of this team. I think that the incident with CP last year really showed how little clout Zorn carries within the organization.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

DEHog wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

num1skinsfan wrote:if he loses the locker room, then fire Zorn ...

I'm not disagreeing with your overall conclusion in your post... but what suggests to you that Zorn has EVER "had" the locker room to lose?

CT what suggests to you that he does'nt??

Well on 980 they were just saying that Zorn doesn't have the type of resume that earns credibility/respect from the players. Not sure how true that is, but I've never gotten the impression that he is the leader of this team. I think that the incident with CP last year really showed how little clout Zorn carries within the organization.

I not saying he did or didn't just curious why some felt he didn't??

Things seemed ok after 8 games last year??

Maybe he lost them with "Maroon and Black"?

DEHog wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:The problem is not the coaches, not the players, not the anything. We have some very good coaches, very good players very good water boys, very good locker rooms, facilities etc. What we lack is a very good GM. Hell, we don't even have one.

We need a GM.

Why do we need a GM than??

Great question, and I think you're serious.

We have some good and very good players at many key positions. But the problem with it is that Vinny does not have any idea of what he is building. Hear me out and don't nitpick the following three lines based on your biases. Hear my whole statement.

He is a scout. He knows talent and he knows how to move within the cap...that's what he's good at. He does a pretty decent job drafting players, and a decent job in free agency.

The answer lies with the fact that a great GM is also able to mesh personalities, knows what positions to spend money on and what positions can be drafted every year, have a vision of the next ten years (maybe longer) and not just the upcoming season, and be able to cut bait on players at their peak and pick up draft picks for them via a trade. A scout, which is what Vinny is, just knows how to add good players to the team with no vision on what it is he is building. He's just patching holes with good players who are not neccesarily a good fit for this team. Once you draft a QB who will lead the team, you pay him to stay forever, same with CB's, same with DE's, and with Safeties to a degree. Every other position should be aquired through the draft and traded once they reach a peak for more draft picks. Look at the great GM's in the league and this is their model.

IMO (and this is not the crutch to my statement so I'm not going to debate it) Portis is a great example of why we need a GM. First off, a great GM would have NEVER brought in Portis. They would know that you can practically draft a very good RB in every draft (there are so many examples of this...the Bills, Broncos, Chargers are three that come to mind). Secondly, you never get rid of a shut down corner that you draft. They are not found every day. Third, you have to find a legitamate compliment to Portis so that you don't run him into the ground and forth, you have to get rid of him via a trade at his peak. Let some desparate team take him for a second round draft pick.

Look at the Colts. Drafted Edge, got rid of him when he became expensive. Drafted Addai, and will get rid of him in the next year and replace him in the draft. Heavy money should not be spent on RB's or LB's. They can be found in the draft every year. Hell, the Steelers are great examples of this. Seems like they draft an all pro LB every other year. Willie Parker went undrafted. Man I could go on forever but I'll stop here and reply to what you disagree with.

chiefhog44 wrote:

DEHog wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:The problem is not the coaches, not the players, not the anything. We have some very good coaches, very good players very good water boys, very good locker rooms, facilities etc. What we lack is a very good GM. Hell, we don't even have one.

We need a GM.

Why do we need a GM than??

Great question, and I think you're serious.

We have some good and very good players at many key positions. But the problem with it is that Vinny does not have any idea of what he is building. Hear me out and don't nitpick the following three lines based on your biases. Hear my whole statement.

He is a scout. He knows talent and he knows how to move within the cap...that's what he's good at. He does a pretty decent job drafting players, and a decent job in free agency.

The answer lies with the fact that a great GM is also able to mesh personalities, knows what positions to spend money on and what positions can be drafted every year, have a vision of the next ten years (maybe longer) and not just the upcoming season, and be able to cut bait on players at their peak and pick up draft picks for them via a trade. A scout, which is what Vinny is, just knows how to add good players to the team with no vision on what it is he is building. He's just patching holes with good players who are not neccesarily a good fit for this team. Once you draft a QB who will lead the team, you pay him to stay forever, same with CB's, same with DE's, and with Safeties to a degree. Every other position should be aquired through the draft and traded once they reach a peak for more draft picks. Look at the great GM's in the league and this is their model.

IMO (and this is not the crutch to my statement so I'm not going to debate it) Portis is a great example of why we need a GM. First off, a great GM would have NEVER brought in Portis. They would know that you can practically draft a very good RB in every draft (there are so many examples of this...the Bills, Broncos, Chargers are three that come to mind). Secondly, you never get rid of a shut down corner that you draft. They are not found every day. Third, you have to find a legitamate compliment to Portis so that you don't run him into the ground and forth, you have to get rid of him via a trade at his peak. Let some desparate team take him for a second round draft pick.

Look at the Colts. Drafted Edge, got rid of him when he became expensive. Drafted Addai, and will get rid of him in the next year and replace him in the draft. Heavy money should not be spent on RB's or LB's. They can be found in the draft every year. Hell, the Steelers are great examples of this. Seems like they draft an all pro LB every other year. Willie Parker went undrafted. Man I could go on forever but I'll stop here and reply to what you disagree with.

Can't say I disagree with any of this except you original post, I don't feel like we have alot of very good players.
As for my bias...you must not have read any of my past posts around here.

DEHog wrote:[
Can't say I disagree with any of this except you original post, I don't feel like we have alot of very good players.
As for my bias...you must not have read any of my past posts around here.

I think they were good and great at one time. That's the point. No vision of when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. We do have some good core players though. Orakopo, ey, Horton, Kelley, and Landry.

DEHog wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

num1skinsfan wrote:if he loses the locker room, then fire Zorn ...

I'm not disagreeing with your overall conclusion in your post... but what suggests to you that Zorn has EVER "had" the locker room to lose?

CT what suggests to you that he does'nt??

I asked first...
Buuuuuut...
The repeated hints at squabbles with several players, including Portis, among other things. I've had the feeling for a while that players don't seem to take him very seriously. Sorry, it's largely based on intangibles. Just consider, though, that an ability to read between the lines is important in my line of work. Can't give you more than that.

I like most on this board am sick to my stomach. I keep asking myself how do we rebuild this team. We know that Snyder is not going anywhere, so that cant be an option.

1. We need a new GM. Yes he is not messing up on the field, but the players he signed and drafted are. Look at our drafts the last couple years...maybe Kelly, Thomas and Davis have good careers but they were not positions of need. We needed 1 WR, not 2 and we did not need another TE. We could of had 2 starting interior O Lineman with those picks.

2 We need a new coach. I dont mind Zorn, but we need a coach who can get the best out of his players I dont think Zorn can. The obvious choices here are Cowher, Gruden and Shannihan. My vote is Cowher but he will go to Carolina if thats available. Next pick might be Gruden bc these players need a kick in the butt.

3. We need new players. We need a complete overhaul of players. Our O Line needs to rebuilt. Samuels is the only O Lineman who stays as long as he wants. Dockery might be OK. The other 3 are gone. Rhineheart was aweful yesterday....I made it a point to watch him. And to think he was a 3rd round pick....see #1.

Secondly, you never get rid of a shut down corner that you draft. They are not found every day.

Non-starter. Gibbs had 2 choices here. Find someone willing to trade a pick or player of value to the skins, OR lose Bailey in 2 months to FA, with NO compensation. It was not a question of "getting rid" of a shut down corner. Bailey was not returning to the Skins one way or another. HE had made that very clear.

Hall and Landry were focused on CJ, it was up to Rogers and Horton to cover Bryant friggin Johnson. Massive fail.

Andre Carter was against one of the worst pass blockers in the league, Jeff Backus. They did max protect a lot, but still, massive fail.

The offensive line was against a bunch of no names and couldn't push, and the d-line was against a bunch of no names and got pushed, massive fail.

The passing game also gets a massive fail for the time between the two TD's being scored. Two routes short of the first down on third down, and a pick by Campbell.

Zorn gets the biggest fail for bad playcalling and bad game management. The team proved last week that they need to kick field goals. Don't decline 3rd down penalties, make the guy kick a 50 yarder, If he drills it, fine, it SHOULD only be 3-3 at that point. I realize you want a big play, but Malcolm Kelly isn't Greg Jennings. Get him loose over the middle and get his receptions up. Use his hands and size to his advantage.

This is my first post so please don't rail me too hard. My thoughts on the Skins are a little all over the place, but it all comes back to one thing.

I am new to the board. Been a Redksins fan since I was born. I left Washington to go to school at Georgia Tech, and in the south, college football is king, so I quickly adapted. I live in Georgia but still watch the Redskins a lot. Over the last 20 years, I've become much less connected as a fan of the Skins and for the last few years have really looked at them through unbiased eyes. I guess the part of my NFL fanatical side was replaced by pulling for my college team instead. Over the years while my allegiance hasn't changed, quite honestly my passion is college football, not pro.

That said, the Redskins are still my favorite pro team and always will be.

The fundamental problem with the Redskins is that the owner doesn't understand how to surround himself with knowledgable football minds that are the basis of creating a winning organization.

When Dan Snyder hired Pepper Rodgers (Someone I was very familiar with having been a Georgia Tech fan, Pepper is both a grad and past coach), I knew from that moment that we were dealing with an owner who didn't know his hand from his butt. Pepper is a good guy, but had little to no real experience giving advice about a pro team.

Snyder and Pepper were the geniuses that hired Steve Spurrier. I knew from day one Spurrier's game did not translate into the pros. His work ethic was never there. So what exactly did these two see in Spurrier that made them think he would be a winner in the NFL? It seems like after that failed experiment, Snyder in his desperation hired Joe Gibbs.

I think JoeGibbs is one of the greatest football minds ever, but his second coming wasn't exactly looked at by the unbiased outside world as a strong move. It was more like an admission by the owner that "Hey, I don't know what the #@%&! I'm doing, can you come in here and help me?"

I was amazed that Gibbs drafted Jason Campbell. Campbell was a top rated highschool player by Auburn, who in 5 years at Auburn was widely considered a disappointment. It wasn't until Campbell's senior year when he had two first round RB's in Cadillac Williams and Ronnie Brown behind him that he had a decent season.

Campbell has all the measurables, but bottom line is he was never a winner and he made way too many mistakes at the college level. In 2003 an undermanned GT defense totally annhilated a #3 ranked Auburn team with Campbell at the helm by confusing him with multiple blitz schemes. He came off the hinges. When the Skins drafted him, I was shocked.

This may not be a popular viewpoint, but I thought when the Skins traded Champ Bailey away for Clinton Portis was one of the dumbest trades I've ever seen. Good-Great Runningbacks that produce 4 yards a carry and plus 1000 yard seasons are a dime a dozen. Shutdown cornerbacks in the NFL are a prized commodity and maybe only come around 2 or 3 times in a decade. That move coupled with past moves, indicated to me that ultimately the Redskins have an owner that doesn't understand the game of football.

Outside of first round success, the Redskins in my opinion have extremely poor scouting and on top of that they end up paying too much for quality free agents. I don't doubt Snyder's desire to want a winner. He just doesn't know how to go about it. Its hard to build a winner when you are operating under a salary cap and most of your success relies on paying top dollar for established guys. You have to have grass roots scouting that produces the other 18 starters on your team. And that means the ability to draft past the first and second round which in my opinion has been next to awful for the last 10 years.

Do I think Zorn is a bad coach? Don't know... I know he's not a good one. But the problems that the Redskins have were here long before Zorn became coach. I thought it was absolutely stupid with that they handled the mismanagement of player personnel by creating so much dissension preseason with their failed efforts to get Mark Sanchez.

The moves that the Redskins have made over the years prior to Zorn are crazy to me. When The Skins got Randel El from Pittsburg, I was like "WHy?" He is a good player, but you already have a guy just like that in Santana Moss? Why do you want to fill your roster with diminutive receivers? Makes no sense. Moss is great, but he's had no complimetary receiver to what he brings every Sunday since he has been a Redskin.

The Skins have gone after big name free agents since the beginning of Snyder's tenure as owner and not one of them was worth the money he shelled out. Its no wonder the players love him so much because they get paid so highly. I almost stopped being a fan of the Skins altogether when Snyder brought in Deion Sanders. Blech!

The problem with the Redskins as I see it go far and above the Head Coach. Zorn will end up being fired eventually and replaced with another Zorn. Until Snyder can surround himself with real football minds that can evaluate talent at the college level successfully, stop throwing money at top free agents (has one top dollar free agent done better with the Skins than he was prior to coming to the Skins?), and make smarter management decisions, then we will continue to see an underachieving highly paid team.

Snyder is too busy wanting to be the mastermind who had the insight to hire the next hall of fame coach (Jerry Jones envy). Or land _____ fill in the blank future hall of fame player. The one time he makes an established hire, he goes after Gibbs who was 15 years removed from the game and quite honestly didn't have the passion for it, which is why he left in 1992.

Anyway, just some food for thought. It sucks right now being a Skins fan. There is no reason whatsoever why this organization cannot have come close to the success we experienced in the 80's and early 90's. The problem is the owner doesn't know how to get out of his own way. Having as many losing seasons as we've had under Dan Snyder, someone needs to take a long hard look in the mirror, and it ain't Zorn.

[quote="Countertrey"][quote]Secondly, you never get rid of a shut down corner that you draft. They are not found every day.[/quote]

Non-starter. Gibbs had 2 choices here. Find someone willing to trade a pick or player of value to the skins, OR lose Bailey in 2 months to FA, with NO compensation. It was not a question of "getting rid" of a shut down corner. Bailey was not returning to the Skins one way or another. HE had made that very clear.[/quote]

Huh? What about the Franchise Tag? All we'd have to do is ensure him that he is the top paid player at his position. Still don't like the move.

BarrelORum wrote:

Countertrey wrote:

Secondly, you never get rid of a shut down corner that you draft. They are not found every day.

Non-starter. Gibbs had 2 choices here. Find someone willing to trade a pick or player of value to the skins, OR lose Bailey in 2 months to FA, with NO compensation. It was not a question of "getting rid" of a shut down corner. Bailey was not returning to the Skins one way or another. HE had made that very clear.

Huh? What about the Franchise Tag? All we'd have to do is ensure him that he is the top paid player at his position. Still don't like the move.

Yep that what I was going to say.

Countertrey wrote:

Secondly, you never get rid of a shut down corner that you draft. They are not found every day.

Non-starter. Gibbs had 2 choices here. Find someone willing to trade a pick or player of value to the skins, OR lose Bailey in 2 months to FA, with NO compensation. It was not a question of "getting rid" of a shut down corner. Bailey was not returning to the Skins one way or another. HE had made that very clear.

Right. Sorry for the oversight. Not the point though

I actually thought Zorn did some good things last year when he came in... like passing the ball on third down at the end of the game while protecting the lead instead of 3 runs and a punt and hope the defense can hold them... but this year his play calling has gotten worse... he's gotten so predictable, even his trickery is predictable...

I have to say though, in reality, he's the QB coach, he's the O coordinator, he's the play caller, and he's the Head coach... He's basically got 4 jobs and 3 of them, he's never done before... If you're going to hire a guy into that situation, you should expect a pretty steep learning curve for a few years...

Problem is I'm sure Snyder wasn't going in with that expectation... he's expecting lightning in a bottle once again...

side note: I didn't realize last season was the first time since 1959 that we didn't score 30 in a season... I'm saying we're putting up 30+ on Tampa this week...