The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Look everyone is complaining JC has not had enough red zone opp to make plays....So I analyzed statisically why Zorn feels this way. I Personally feel what a QB does from opponents 49yd -20yd line---IS JUST AS IMPORTANT IF NOT MORE....Given the fact once you get inside the 20 things get very crowded and a teams playbook is limited ...well fellas brace yourself here we go--these r combined 08-09 stats with comparisons
ATT COMP PCT YDS TD INT
JC 170 99 58 996 (0) 4

Romo 126 76 61 949 6 6

Eli 195 122 62 1432 7 4

Flacco 185 103 56 1373 7 5

and on and on it goes- I could compare him to every qb if i want
For a quick measuring stick in 18 attempts Mark Sanchez has already thrown a TD from this range something campbell has NOT in his last 170 attempts

Lastly---HERE IT COMES..I studied EVERY QB in the NFL from 08 AND 09...Jason Campbell IS THE ONLY QB IN THE LEAGUE that has not scored from this distance when combining both years --before you ask--UH yes even JRussell has thrown few (actually Carson Palmer doesnt but he doesnt qualify due to injury and not enough total throws ...he threw only 40 attempts combined)

Guys this is why Zorn calls games the way he does ...IMO....and its also why our FO was scrabbling for new QB ....This is beyond impotent statistics

I will let you all debate my findings....so let me pound this home

Over the last 18 games JASON CAMPBELL IS THE ONLY STARTING QB IN THE LEAGUE THAT HAS NOT THROWN A TD from the opponents 49yd to 20ydline......
and since 2007 on ----304 attempts---1 touchdown

I MEANT ---"CLOSER LOOK"
my stupid typos. lol

I'm always a belilever in the caveat that stats are malleable to fit any argument you care to make.

But I'm on board with this one .

The 40-50 yard quick-strike TD -- especially when it's the first play after your D forced a turnover -- is a potent 1-2 punch that deflates the opponent.

To not have that capability -- or at least the gumption to take the shot -- means you have a less-than-efficient offense.

MEZZSKIN wrote:I MEANT ---"CLOSER LOOK"
my stupid typos. lol

There is an 'Edit' button.

fixed--Thanks IB

These stats do not LIE ...JC is impotent after crossing the 50yd line
evry Qb in the league has shown the ability to punch it in but him...ABSOLUTE FACT

Although I haven't verified these stats, it follows my observations, and it would explain better than anything else, the lack of points overall.

If memory serves, prior to Zorn, in 2007, the Redskins went without a TD to a wide receiver for the entire first half of the season (from any distance). And that is just unimaginable, but also supports the idea that there is a QB issue.

My long held contention has been that Campbell misses to many (most) down field opportunities from not only poor accuracy, but also poor vision.
You just can't say that for 8 games in 2007, a wide receiver was never open deep. Impossible.

Here in 2008 and 2009, with the short passing game that is the halmark of Zorn's offense, one would expect that defensive secondaries could be easily set up and even more vulnerable to the double move Moss is so proficient at. (The guy gets behind the secondary too frequently to not be a 10+ TD guy every year.)

And for those who are so quick to point to a dropped pass as the problem ... the importance of chemistry between QBs and receivers cannot be overstated. And a lot of that chemistry has to do with knowing where your receivers are going to be ... and how quickly they get there so that the ball can be released prior to the completion of their rout where maximum separation exists. Another aspect is accuracy and throwing a consistent ball that a receiver doesn't have to make drastic adjustments to (lead them in the direction of the rout) On the receiver's end, they must be able to trust and know where that QB is going to put the ball ...

With Campbell, he RARELY hits his guy in stride or leads them effectively. His short passes are all over the place .. low, high, and behind. The deeper passes aren't consistent, often requiring a receiver that has looked over one shoulder to make a catch over the other. (in other words, a line drive with not enough air under it and directed right at him rather than leading slightly).

All of these things contribute to a poor passing attack, and require receivers to make exceptional catches which look routine. (If it's within their grasp, they should make the catch, but an accurate QB that can anticipate makes it much easier, and also leads to more strikes in stride and more TD catches.

MEZZSKIN wrote:Guys this is why Zorn calls games the way he does ...IMO....and its also why our FO was scrabbling for new QB ....This is beyond impotent statistics

Guess you didn't watch the NFL Zorn video today. It makes you sound, um, wrong.

Ray if you like....You can play around with this link (which i did--pretty cool)
and if you want to compare you can scroll up to "teams rosters" drop down then click on other teams qb's for comparison

http://www.nfl.com/players/jasoncampbel ... =CAM375235

hes the only QB other than Palmer that hasnt thrown one TD from that range thru 08-09 ...and with his attempts hes in a class by himself..Palmer was hurt

.....Even trent Edwards, Shaun Hill and Russell have at least one

Riggo...the Coach isnt going tell the QB to his face Im calling a run because I think "you sck"

its an overall pattern with JC that cannot be denied....no one in the league has been as impotent as Him in between 20-49 YARD MARKERS

This is not up for debate!
Zorn made him drop back 170X!!!!!!!!!!
JC could not score once!!!!

riggofan wrote:

MEZZSKIN wrote:Guys this is why Zorn calls games the way he does ...IMO....and its also why our FO was scrabbling for new QB ....This is beyond impotent statistics

Guess you didn't watch the NFL Zorn video today. It makes you sound, um, wrong.

How so? i listened to that video and I think that he is dead on.

That's all well and good to go out and analyze and get stats. JC ain't the only QB in this league that has issues. What would be said "IF" Sellers and Thomas caught those passes for touchdowns???

The unfortunate thing about this situation is that JC is not the hyped-up rebellious type. He's mild manner and will do what he is told, so Zorn can and will call the game the way he see's and that is to show little confidence in your QB. Jason has enough now, that if he went rogue, nobody would be mad at him except Zorn. Joe T. said it best on his radio show. Jason has become paralyzed because he's to trying to be perfect for Zorn.

If you look at the Brees', Manning's, Brady's and even the Romo's of the world, they got the greenlight to chuck it down the field. Eli and Romo are sporadic with their accuracy but they still got the greenlight. Jason doesn't. Brees' is on pace to shatter Brady's TD record. But guess what??? How did alot of these guys get so accurate?? Work in practice and the experience of chucking down the field in the game. For JC, it's like the only receivers he has a repoire with are ey and ARE. Eli is slowing getting his with Manninham now that Plax is locked down. It's only a matter of time when Brady and Galloway get it going.... Are they putting in the work to get the repoire??? We don't know.....

roybus14 wrote:That's all well and good to go out and analyze and get stats. JC ain't the only QB in this league that has issues. What would be said "IF" Sellers and Thomas caught those passes for touchdowns???

If you look at the Brees', Manning's, Brady's and even the Romo's of the world, they got the greenlight to chuck it down the field. Eli and Romo are sporadic with their accuracy but they still got the greenlight. Jason doesn't.

Roy both of those drops were RED ZONE drops-- were talking about 20-49yds out ..so they dont pertain

#2---JC combined pass attempts over the last 2 years from opp 20-49 yard markers
JC has made 170 attempts..COMPARED-..Romo 126 ELI 195 FLACCO--185

hes had 44 more attempts than Romo(romo has 6 td's) from this range and is inline with just about every other qb
HES HAD THE OPPORTUNITIES.....perception is-- he hasnt--- because hes never cashed in

actually since 2007
JASON CAMPBELL HAS MADE 304 ATTEMPTS BETWEEN THE OPPONENTS 20-49 YD line

HE HAS 1 TOUCDOWN!!!!----IN 304 ATTEMPTS
AND 8 PICKS


how in gods name can team consistrently win with this stats
304 ATTEMPTS!!!!! from 20-49 yards out!!!!
1 touchdown!

its the coach's fault...i know---Gibbs Saunders and Zorn
Maybe he should have had 400 attempts...and maybe then we would see touchown
#2!
for a goof i checked Todd Collins in 07 49 attempts BETWEEN OPP 49-20YD -------5 TOUCHDOWNS

JC 304 ATTEMPTS ---1 TD...at this rate it will JC 1520 ATTEMPTS to accomplish what TC DID 49]

Sunday's ugly win without a TD, in this particular game, was not just Campbell. HE contributed for sure, but so did others. And that is coming from one of the harshest critics. There were two drops, a fumble, and penalties, and an overall failure (including play calling) that attributed to the failure to score TDs.

By the same token, to think that Campbell's ineffectiveness doesn't play a roll in the plays called would be wrong. It has to. Coaches learn to shy away from things that haven't worked in the past even when the situation would otherwise call for a more aggressive approach.

And right out of the blocks Sunday, the first big play, and very possibly a TD was missed by Campbell ... the under thrown ball to Kelly. That series turned out to be a 3 and out instead of 7 points. And that "sets the tone". Everyone did their job ... the protection was there ... the receiver beat his man ... and Campbell blew it. But you won't here that from Campbell ... he talks about the drops ... and the sack when Moss was open for a TD. That video with Campbell/Zorn .. Campbell comes off the field, frustrated and say's ... "that was a freakin TD". Sorry, Jason, that was an open receiver down field just like the one you missed at the start of the game when you had plenty of time. So let's be honest .. it was a potential TD that you might have missed anyway

The lack of ownership of his own failures doesn't demonstrate leadership in my view. The coaching over the Coach/QB mic "Come on, hustle them up .. you're in charge out there" should not be necessary with a vet QB. I see a lot of very fundamental issues being the area of focus when that should be as natural now as riding a bike. You don't say "now push the left pedal, and now the right, and the left again ... hurry...

And even Campbell spoke about being less mechanical in the Rams game than he was in the Giants game. This guy is a 4th year starter .. this is rookie stuff ... 2nd year stuff ... not 4th year.

Last year he said quite matter of factly that he likes playing from the shotgun because he loses sight of the receivers and doesn't see them as well from under center. BIG RED FLAG Zorn's offense ... three step drops ... play action all take place from under center. Pro Football is played from under center, and a pro QB shouldn't even think something like this, much less say it out loud.

And I think that explains the difficulty perfectly. He's a scripted, mechanical player. When it's clear cut and things go according to script, he executes. But throw in a variable or two, and the script breaks down, and improvisation is required, he can't make the play.

He paints by numbers. He's not an artist. Unfortunately, the NFL defenses out there are good at numbers, and they seem to have his .. especially as the field shortens.

Good post Ray....agreed on alot of fronts....if you couple your post with the stats I unearthed...Were starting to get at the root of the problem.

How can anyone say he has hadnt had the chance...ETC ETC...between 49-20yd line of the opponents
JC 304 attempts = 1 TD
M Sanchez 18 attempts= 1 td
TCollins 07---49 attempts =5 td's

and i can compare him to anyone and it looks this bad...JC is at historic level of impotency when it comes to producing TD's for his team when crossing the 50 and up to opponents---20ydline

but according to him ---he did well every year--07--08 ...he doesnt get it

MEZZSKIN wrote:Look everyone is complaining JC has not had enough red zone opp to make plays....So I analyzed statisically why Zorn feels this way. I Personally feel what a QB does from opponents 49yd -20yd line---IS JUST AS IMPORTANT IF NOT MORE....Given the fact once you get inside the 20 things get very crowded and a teams playbook is limited ...well fellas brace yourself here we go--these r combined 08-09 stats with comparisons
ATT COMP PCT YDS TD INT
JC 170 99 58 996 (0) 4

Romo 126 76 61 949 6 6

Eli 195 122 62 1432 7 4

Flacco 185 103 56 1373 7 5

and on and on it goes- I could compare him to every qb if i want
For a quick measuring stick in 18 attempts Mark Sanchez has already thrown a TD from this range something campbell has NOT in his last 170 attempts

Lastly---HERE IT COMES..I studied EVERY QB in the NFL from 08 AND 09...Jason Campbell IS THE ONLY QB IN THE LEAGUE that has not scored from this distance when combining both years --before you ask--UH yes even JRussell has thrown few (actually Carson Palmer doesnt but he doesnt qualify due to injury and not enough total throws ...he threw only 40 attempts combined)

Guys this is why Zorn calls games the way he does ...IMO....and its also why our FO was scrabbling for new QB ....This is beyond impotent statistics

I will let you all debate my findings....so let me pound this home

Over the last 18 games JASON CAMPBELL IS THE ONLY STARTING QB IN THE LEAGUE THAT HAS NOT THROWN A TD from the opponents 49yd to 20ydline......
and since 2007 on ----304 attempts---1 touchdown

Dude, I am with you on this. Campbell has had 5 years to show something and has shown NOTHING. I'm tired of hearing all the excuses for him. It's amazing how you can have atleast 3 QBS from last year to this year get drafted and they have already shown more then what Campbell has done his whole career. And one of those QBS came onto the team when it was in disaray.

I was JC guy for a while but the sample size is now too long and very concerning statistics have started to emerge on him from this range Keep in mind this range is Vital to teams success ...this is beyond coaches now

Sanchez has attempted 18 passes from within--1td
JC has 304 attempts has has produced the ONE---ONE!--ZERO SINCE 2007 OVER 170 ATTEMPTS!
Collins had 49 attempts from this range in 07---5 td's
Flacco has like 195 attempts ---7 tds

I will keep writing this becauise these statistics are vital and very indicitive stats on how well a qb plays...

this isnt about opportunity anymore....304 ATTEMPTS from the opp 49-20yd lne ..........IS AMPLE !!!....

MEZZSKIN wrote:I was JC guy for a while but the sample size is now too long and very concerning statistics have started to emerge on him from this range Keep in mind this range is Vital to teams success ...this is beyond coaches now

Sanchez has attempted 18 passes from within--1td
JC has 304 attempts has has produced the ONE---ONE!--ZERO SINCE 2007 OVER 170 ATTEMPTS!
Collins had 49 attempts from this range in 07---5 td's
Flacco has like 195 attempts ---7 tds

I will keep writing this becauise these statistics are vital and very indicitive stats on how well a qb plays...

this isnt about opportunity anymore....304 ATTEMPTS from the opp 49-20yd lne ..........IS AMPLE !!!....

Yeah, I was a JC guy as well. I took heat from a 49er fan because of that for a couple of years and stood up for JC. But I can't anymore

look people can conjure up a 1100 reasons why Zorn stinks or Gibbs was too conservative or Saunders stunk etc etc.

to use baseball term here.....a .230 hitter is a 230 hitter is a 230 hitter and will never bat 320

Campbell has thrown the ball 304x from the opp 49-20yd line and HAS THROWN one touchdown!
HES THE WORST IN THE NFL in production from this range...
He hasnt thrown one since 2007!!!! OVER 170 ATTEMPTS AGO!

this is absurd!

No one should defend these stats......HES UNPRODUCTIVE..
I PRAY A BOLT OF LIGHTENING HITS HIM AND HE PRODUCES

but reality says -------hes a .230 hitter

Statistics in the NFL make me laugh sometimes, a QB can get credited for an 80yard TD even if he only through the ball a couple of yards and the receiver ran in the other 78..

At the moment a lot of teams are having QB issues (just look at kansas) , its early season and the players are still rusty.

Manchester_Redskin wrote:Statistics in the NFL make me laugh sometimes, a QB can get credited for an 80yard TD even if he only through the ball a couple of yards and the receiver ran in the other 78..

At the moment a lot of teams are having QB issues (just look at kansas) , its early season and the players are still rusty.

Yes, but our moment has lasted for 3 years.

Mezzskin hit the nail on the head.

This team practically NEVER makes big plays. You need these to win games because they deflate your opponent.

So it's a combination of both these factors that have doomed the team in this area: playcalling and mediocre play from the QB.

You can't win all the time with dinks and dunks and solid rushing. You have to go for the kill. Every single Redskins team that has won the big one has had this characteristic.

MEZZSKIN wrote:Look everyone is complaining JC has not had enough red zone opp to make plays....So I analyzed statisically why Zorn feels this way. I Personally feel what a QB does from opponents 49yd -20yd line---IS JUST AS IMPORTANT IF NOT MORE....Given the fact once you get inside the 20 things get very crowded and a teams playbook is limited ...well fellas brace yourself here we go--these r combined 08-09 stats with comparisons
ATT COMP PCT YDS TD INT
JC 170 99 58 996 (0) 4

Romo 126 76 61 949 6 6

Eli 195 122 62 1432 7 4

Flacco 185 103 56 1373 7 5

and on and on it goes- I could compare him to every qb if i want
For a quick measuring stick in 18 attempts Mark Sanchez has already thrown a TD from this range something campbell has NOT in his last 170 attempts

Lastly---HERE IT COMES..I studied EVERY QB in the NFL from 08 AND 09...Jason Campbell IS THE ONLY QB IN THE LEAGUE that has not scored from this distance when combining both years --before you ask--UH yes even JRussell has thrown few (actually Carson Palmer doesnt but he doesnt qualify due to injury and not enough total throws ...he threw only 40 attempts combined)

Guys this is why Zorn calls games the way he does ...IMO....and its also why our FO was scrabbling for new QB ....This is beyond impotent statistics

I will let you all debate my findings....so let me pound this home

Over the last 18 games JASON CAMPBELL IS THE ONLY STARTING QB IN THE LEAGUE THAT HAS NOT THROWN A TD from the opponents 49yd to 20ydline......
and since 2007 on ----304 attempts---1 touchdown

Nice to see this stat. Kinda interesting that he has passed more in those margins then Dallas. Shame on Campbell but shame on the COACHING STAFF for not making this a priority to improve on this within the offseason. It is obvious that the playcalling is suspect. I also see Jason not throwing in the touchdown margins, he tends to throw to a guy just short of the endzone. A few years ago I remember the receivers would always get stopped at the 5,4,3 yard line before the reached the goal. Don't know whats up with that....but all is correctable.

Funny mezz...I don't see francal over here. He must not have a counter to this. I too WAS a Campbell fan, but that was prior to this season starting, at the very least. He did NOTHING last year and has done nothing so far this year. Your stats (and I hate stats) are dead on. We're doomed until we can draft a QB and OL all next year.

Champsturf wrote:Funny mezz...I don't see francal over here. He must not have a counter to this. I too WAS a Campbell fan, but that was prior to this season starting, at the very least. He did NOTHING last year and has done nothing so far this year. Your stats (and I hate stats) are dead on. We're doomed until we can draft a QB and OL all next year.

His stats don't take into consideration:

1. The down and distance on those attempts.
2. The play that was called.
3. The number of passes actually caught (179)
4. The majority of the attempts (159) came while running the WCO (a system that was new to everyone involved) which is a short passing scheme (that based on yards AFTER the catch.

I love stats, I can make them say almost anything if I have enough of them or limted in available data.