The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I want to make two points about Snyder, Zorn and the WCO.

1) My view on the booing, win now mentality is that fans need to settle down a bit. First off, it's the second game and we're 1-1. I want to remind fans that Zorn needs more time to install the WCO. Go back and look at all the old threads about it when he was hired. This will take time, and by booing, and putting the heat on, it's just making Snyder's trigger finger itch. By comparison of other coaches who were in Zorn's coaching tree, Bill Walsh took three years to get his team out of mediocracy, Mike Holmgren took four, Shannahan got fired his second year as coach with the Raiders and then took two years with the Broncos, Reid it took two years, Dungy four years, Gruden took four years. I haven't listed them all because most of them were replacements of a WCO coach who was fired like Gruden with the bucs, Seifert, Mariucci, Sherman, Mccarthy (which is my next point). It'll come. Dennis Green is the exception.

2) I'm alright with keeping the pressure off of Zorn this year. That's what I said I would do January of 2008. Next year, expectations will go up. And if he is fired, he had better be replaced with a WCO coach. If Snyder has committed to the West Coast Offense for this team for the forseable future, and is building a team around that philosophy, he had better stick to it. Once you have a system installed, you can find different drivers, but to switch cars every three years sets you back...big time.

chiefhog44 wrote:My view on the booing, win now mentality is that fans need to settle down a bit

I really thought they were booing the play calling, not the team. Every time they booed was exactly when I was frustrated Zorn kept calling the same running plays that hadn't worked up to that point in the game. The frustration was the Skins driving the length of the field then taking a knee three times and kicking a field goal.

Correct Kazoo.

Chiefhog44, If I see progress, then I'll stop booing. Until then, when I still see the same boneheaded run plays that my 9yo can see coming, I'll still boo whether I'm at home or in the stands.

Chiefhog - I'm with Vet and others on this - we are not expecting miracles but the team just spent a bunch of money on a couple of defensive players and while our offensive expectations are not grand we do expect to see some progress - I would feel the same about what we have seen the past 2 games if the record was 2-2 - bad play calling by Zorn and bad execution on the offensive side of the ball are not going to be tolerated here - This is not just about winning or losing - what we saw happen after we got into the Red Zone 5 times and managed only 3 FGs is inexcusable.

We just need to see better effort from the players and a much better effort from Zorn - actually both of those can be laid at Zorn's feet, he's the HC and if the players are not performing well enough to execute whatever plays he wants then he had better change the game planning AND use the players that can execute it

St Louis has a better defense than the Rams and are averaging a lot more points and they have played against the Saints and the Vikings

chiefhog44 wrote:This will take time, and by booing, and putting the heat on, it's just making Snyder's trigger finger itch.

Yeah I don't know if the boo'ing is called for or not. But I agree with you about making Snyder jumpy. It would make zero sense to fire Zorn before the end of the season. But all of the chatter from fans and media could very well drive Snyder to act (stupidly).

riggofan wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:This will take time, and by booing, and putting the heat on, it's just making Snyder's trigger finger itch.

Yeah I don't know if the boo'ing is called for or not. But I agree with you about making Snyder jumpy. It would make zero sense to fire Zorn before the end of the season. But all of the chatter from fans and media could very well drive Snyder to act (stupidly).

You guys do know Snyder has fired one coach he hired ever?

KazooSkinsFan wrote:

riggofan wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:This will take time, and by booing, and putting the heat on, it's just making Snyder's trigger finger itch.

Yeah I don't know if the boo'ing is called for or not. But I agree with you about making Snyder jumpy. It would make zero sense to fire Zorn before the end of the season. But all of the chatter from fans and media could very well drive Snyder to act (stupidly).

You guys do know Snyder has fired one coach he hired ever?

I guess you're referring to the general. Marty was definately fired. Spurier would have been fire, if he haden't quit during the season. (I know he technically didn't quit until after the season, but if you watched his second season it was very apparent he quit.

Gibbs could have kept his job forever and the Danny would never have fired him.

So I'm with you. when people say he has has 6 coaches in 10 years that is a bunch of crap. Norv should have been fired years before the Danny got there and it was only that hot seat (and a good QB) that made the the Skins division winners.

So the Danny has only hired 4 coaches and fired one of them and he has gone on the record as saying that firing Norv in season was a big mistake.

I don't think this team talent wise is more than a 9-10 win team and that is w/o injuries. Ever loss on th OL subtract one win and two for Samuals if he goes down.

skinsfan#33 wrote:Spurier would have been fire, if he haden't quit during the season. (I know he technically didn't quit until after the season, but if you watched his second season it was very apparent he quit

First, yes, I was referring to Marty. I hated him. Sounds like we agree on most things. The one thing I don't necessarily think is Spurrier would have or should have been fired after the season by Danny, except as I think you accurately point out it was Spurrier who quit and he did it before he quit.

Of course knowing Gibbs would come back, I'd have flown to DC to fire Spurrier myself. But not knowing that, I think his issue was not his own lack of NFL experience but that he hired an all college staff. If I were Danny I would have told him we're hiring an experienced NFL one and only have fired him if he continued to refuse. That the reality Danny has only fired Marty of the coaches he hired, who was a horses rear, leaves that Spurrier was definitely gone in definite doubt if he had been into it and been ready to adapt and move forward.

West Coast-Smest Coast offense. Don't nobody want to hear about needing to time to implement this offense. It's a proven offense but if you have a coach afraid or can't call the right plays, then it's not effective no matter who's running.

I see the problem as two-fold:

1. Zorn calling dumb plays.

2. The entire coaching staff not getting these guys amped up to play. Even if they are still learning the WCO, there should be more energy and effort even if they don't have it down...

roybus14 wrote:West Coast-Smest Coast offense. Don't nobody want to hear about needing to time to implement this offense. It's a proven offense but if you have a coach afraid or can't call the right plays, then it's not effective no matter who's running.

I see the problem as two-fold:

1. Zorn calling dumb plays.

2. The entire coaching staff not getting these guys amped up to play. Even if they are still learning the WCO, there should be more energy and effort even if they don't have it down...

Coaching afraid- that's right on point. Zorn appears to be calling the game not to lose instead of agressively to win. All this talk of Zorn not trusting Campbell I don't understand. Campbell has problems, but excessive interceptions is not one of them. At this point, Zorn's post game interviews are starting to remind me of Turner.

roybus14 wrote:West Coast-Smest Coast offense. Don't nobody want to hear about needing to time to implement this offense. It's a proven offense but if you have a coach afraid or can't call the right plays, then it's not effective no matter who's running.

I see the problem as two-fold:

1. Zorn calling dumb plays.

2. The entire coaching staff not getting these guys amped up to play. Even if they are still learning the WCO, there should be more energy and effort even if they don't have it down...

But if he's fired, don't you think he should be replaced by a WCO coach to pick up where Zorn left off? I mean, I feel like we would be in for another ten year rebuilding if we shifted again. Start down the path, finish down the path. I don't really care which way you go, just choose and stick to it.

SkinsJock wrote:St Louis has a better defense than the Rams

I would take Marty back in a heartbeat, but The Danny could never swallow his pride enough to make that move.

Deadskins wrote:I would take Marty back in a heartbeat, but The Danny could never swallow his pride enough to make that move.

Didn't want him when we got him! Don't want him back and couldn't stand watching the team with him at the helm.

However, he shouldn't have been fired. He had the team heading in the right direction after a lousy start.

I don't want Chucky or Shanahan (sp?) either!

Deadskins wrote:I would take Marty back in a heartbeat, but The Danny could never swallow his pride enough to make that move.

Marty is out fishing in the Bahamas.... He does not wanna come back to the NFL....imo

Deadskins wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:St Louis has a better defense than the Rams

I should have said the Lions defense has looked better than the Rams - I know it is just 2 games but ...

The Lions' QB has a lot of learning to do and we should win this game -especially after the wake-up call of that effort we saw last Sunday

SkinsJock wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:St Louis has a better defense than the Rams

I should have said the Lions defense has looked better than the Rams - I know it is just 2 games but ...

The Lions' QB has a lot of learning to do and we should win this game -especially after the wake-up call of that effort we saw last Sunday

It was obvious what you meant, he likes to do that

chiefhog44 wrote:I want to make two points about Snyder, Zorn and the WCO.

1) My view on the booing, win now mentality is that fans need to settle down a bit. First off, it's the second game and we're 1-1. I want to remind fans that Zorn needs more time to install the WCO. Go back and look at all the old threads about it when he was hired. This will take time, and by booing, and putting the heat on, it's just making Snyder's trigger finger itch. By comparison of other coaches who were in Zorn's coaching tree, Bill Walsh took three years to get his team out of mediocracy, Mike Holmgren took four, Shannahan got fired his second year as coach with the Raiders and then took two years with the Broncos, Reid it took two years, Dungy four years, Gruden took four years. I haven't listed them all because most of them were replacements of a WCO coach who was fired like Gruden with the bucs, Seifert, Mariucci, Sherman, Mccarthy (which is my next point). It'll come. Dennis Green is the exception.

2) I'm alright with keeping the pressure off of Zorn this year. That's what I said I would do January of 2008. Next year, expectations will go up. And if he is fired, he had better be replaced with a WCO coach. If Snyder has committed to the West Coast Offense for this team for the forseable future, and is building a team around that philosophy, he had better stick to it. Once you have a system installed, you can find different drivers, but to switch cars every three years sets you back...big time.

I just don't think this post could be much more off base. Zorn does not "need more time to install the WCO", because more time is only more time we'll be putting off the inevitable. I like Jim Zorn, he seems like a nice guy, and he would probably make a great OC in time... but he was thrust into the position of HC.

The guy cannot install the WCO because he does not have "his" system ironed out at the professional level, let alone the expertise in personnel matters to get the right talent to make it work. As it stands today the Redskins are a mess, and are no better than the day Norv Turner left. We're a perpetual 6-10 to 10-6 team who can't advance in the playoffs.

What this team needs, and what any elite team did was to engage in a serious rebuilding effort at some point. Elminate waste and build a team core. (The fact is, it doesn't even matter WHAT the premise is... fast WR's, smashmouth football, d-line, o-line, linebackers.... whatever you build your team around is fine as long as there's a consistent plan that is followed through with.)

Zorn isn't the man to do that and as a fan I am fine with parting ways with him. I don't like Cowher or Shannahan in particular as coaches, but either one would be much better at building a winner than Zorn could ever be, they have the experience, they know their system and unlike Joe Gibbs their system is not so old and well understood that it's no longer effective.

This team isn't even a WCO team, and even if they were, so what? Portis is old and will be gone in a couple seasons, and Moss and ARE (who aren't right for the WCO anyway) will be gone too. ey is successful in all types of offenses and the line will need a complete remodel.

The Redskins just need a new captain at the helm, with the vision, leadership and patience to build a winner in Washington.

Will Dan Snyder ever let that happen? Time will tell, but if the next head coach of the Redskins is a failure as well, I hope he finally sells the team.

Skinsfan55 wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:I want to make two points about Snyder, Zorn and the WCO.

1) My view on the booing, win now mentality is that fans need to settle down a bit. First off, it's the second game and we're 1-1. I want to remind fans that Zorn needs more time to install the WCO. Go back and look at all the old threads about it when he was hired. This will take time, and by booing, and putting the heat on, it's just making Snyder's trigger finger itch. By comparison of other coaches who were in Zorn's coaching tree, Bill Walsh took three years to get his team out of mediocracy, Mike Holmgren took four, Shannahan got fired his second year as coach with the Raiders and then took two years with the Broncos, Reid it took two years, Dungy four years, Gruden took four years. I haven't listed them all because most of them were replacements of a WCO coach who was fired like Gruden with the bucs, Seifert, Mariucci, Sherman, Mccarthy (which is my next point). It'll come. Dennis Green is the exception.

2) I'm alright with keeping the pressure off of Zorn this year. That's what I said I would do January of 2008. Next year, expectations will go up. And if he is fired, he had better be replaced with a WCO coach. If Snyder has committed to the West Coast Offense for this team for the forseable future, and is building a team around that philosophy, he had better stick to it. Once you have a system installed, you can find different drivers, but to switch cars every three years sets you back...big time.

I just don't think this post could be much more off base. Zorn does not "need more time to install the WCO", because more time is only more time we'll be putting off the inevitable. I like Jim Zorn, he seems like a nice guy, and he would probably make a great OC in time... but he was thrust into the position of HC.

so he'll make a great OC in time, yet, my insistance that this win now mentality that fans like you exibit is off base?

Skinsfan55 wrote: The guy cannot install the WCO because he does not have "his" system ironed out at the professional level, let alone the expertise in personnel matters to get the right talent to make it work.

Wouldn't you rather have a long term solution then trying to continue with this coaching carousel (sp?)? Actually, after re-reading your post, it sounds like you want him replaced...and the beat goes on.

Skinsfan55 wrote: whatever you build your team around is fine as long as there's a consistent plan that is followed through with.)

didn't I just state this??? Pick a system, pick a coach, and stick to it. If he's replaced, replace him with another coach in that system. And yet the post is off base?

Skinsfan55 wrote:Zorn isn't the man to do that and as a fan I am fine with parting ways with him. I don't like Cowher or Shannahan in particular as coaches, but either one would be much better at building a winner than Zorn could ever be, they have the experience, they know their system and unlike Joe Gibbs their system is not so old and well understood that it's no longer effective.

Wait a minute. The last paragraph you are saying that we need to have a consistant plan and stick with it. Now you say we need to part ways with Zorn and start over again. Dude, this is getting frustrating. Not only are you talking out of two side of your ..., but what you say here is exactly the mentality I'm talking about. Lets forgo building something long term (or at least longer than 18 games) and hire a high profile coach because of the promise of a super bowl. It's a layup. All we need is one of those two guys and we win the super bowl. Man. That's pretty easy. I wonder why every team doesn't do that...

Skinsfan55 wrote:This team isn't even a WCO team, and even if they were, so what? Portis is old and will be gone in a couple seasons, and Moss and ARE (who aren't right for the WCO anyway) will be gone too. ey is successful in all types of offenses and the line will need a complete remodel.

This paragraph is a bunch of babble. What's the point of it? That we need to cut them now, cooley's a good fit and something about remodeling?

Skinsfan55 wrote: The Redskins just need a new captain at the helm, with the vision, leadership and patience to build a winner in Washington.

Will Dan Snyder ever let that happen? Time will tell, but if the next head coach of the Redskins is a failure as well, I hope he finally sells the team.

How is anyone supposed to have patience with fans like you breathing down their neck after going 9-9 over their first 18 games? I mean really. You are now calling for the firing of a coach who just took control of this team 18 games ago, and has managed to go 9-9...all with players like, quote..."Portis is old ... and Moss and ARE (who aren't right for the WCO anyway) and the line will need a complete remodel [overhaul]."

chiefhog44 wrote:How is anyone supposed to have patience with fans like you breathing down their neck after going 9-9 over their first 18 games? I mean really. You are now calling for the firing of a coach who just took control of this team 18 games ago, and has managed to go 9-9...all with players like, quote..."Portis is old ... and Moss and ARE (who aren't right for the WCO anyway) and the line will need a complete remodel [overhaul]."

No need for patience with some fans. Read there post shake your head and move on. The debate is subject to lower your IQ.
Two games into the second year of a head coach that was brought in to me more or less a QB coach. He knows the west coast version of the WCO, but he had never called a game before last year. The year that he got promoted to the top spot before camp even started. He has no excuse for going .500 last year and to be in the same boat after two games heads must roll.
For the record Portis just turned 28 and they have been running him into the ground.
ARE and Moss can fit the WCO, but they fit the same postion, Moss gives you more options.


That's 1 out 3 correct and for a Skinsfan55 post that's not bad.

ARE switched positions this offseason and is currently in the top 20 in receptions and just outside the top 25 in yards. If he stays on that pass and Chris ey continues to put up better numbers, defenses will have to adjust and give Moss more freedom even if none of last year's 2nd round picks steps up.

The O-line has been remodled, only two of last years starters are on the active roster as of today. Now maybe they should look at upgrading it.

As far as CP goes I commented on him in the JC shotgun thread

1niksder wrote:

chiefhog44 wrote:How is anyone supposed to have patience with fans like you breathing down their neck after going 9-9 over their first 18 games? I mean really. You are now calling for the firing of a coach who just took control of this team 18 games ago, and has managed to go 9-9...all with players like, quote..."Portis is old ... and Moss and ARE (who aren't right for the WCO anyway) and the line will need a complete remodel [overhaul]."

No need for patience with some fans. Read there post shake your head and move on. The debate is subject to lower your IQ.

My head hurts I've shaken it so much, and I think your right. I am dumber now that I engaged in that conversation.

chiefhog44, I apologize for assuming you could read. My mistake.

Yes, the Redskins need an actual plan, and they need to stick with it. But, as I made painfully clear in my post: Jim Zorn is NOT THE RIGHT GUY FOR THE JOB. He MAY someday be a good OC, but will probably never be head coach material and he's certainly not the type of personality who will make a cohesive plan that the Redskins can stick with. Even if he could he would never have enough time to do so because he's spent two years spinning his wheels with NO PLAN in place.

What the Redskins need (again, is there an echo in here? I made this all very clear earlier) is a strong personality for a Head Coach who also has the vision and know-how to actually BUILD A TEAM not a collection of players who don't compliment each others abilities. The last time the Redskins had any kind of 3 year plan in place was 2000, when Marty Schottenheimer got rid of the high priced vets and in the next seasons to come was going to build through the draft and free agency with players WHO ACTUALLY FIT A COHESIVE SYSTEM.

Instead his strong personality (one we badly needed IMO) clashed with Danny's and Coach Marty got fired. (Before going on to turn the Chargers into a powerhouse in the AFC.)

Zorn doesn't even have an "offense" he's got a handful of Holmgren plays and some QB coaching knowledge. As an OC under Fassel (who we SHOULD have hired.) He probably would have been fine adding to his knowledge under a great QB coach and offensive mind like Jim Fassel. Instead he was miscast as HC and he hasn't got the slightest chance of ever becoming successful... he doesn't have a system, which makes it impossible to find players to work well together.

The Redskins need to start over and make a serious rebuilding effort where they don't trade draft picks for any reason other than acquiring a franchise QB. Never trade a draft pick, never sign a star player over 27 and don't take big chances in the draft, only draft guys who actually have football skills and at worst could be a backup/special teams. Good teams like the Pats, Colts, Giants, Cowboys etc. don't take wild chances in the late rounds, they get guys with football IQ who can actually play... rather than rolling the dice on finding a diamond in the rough.

The Skins need a plan, we can all agree on that, but the idea that Zorn is the man to put that plan in place is so ridiculous I can't even imagine it.

Skinsfan55 wrote:The Skins need a plan, we can all agree on that,

Agree that they need to stick to a plan. disagree that they actually need one.

Skinsfan55 wrote: but the idea that Zorn is the man to put that plan in place is so ridiculous I can't even imagine it.

I'll agree that fans like you are part of the problem...no patience. How can you (unless you have the war room tapped) come to this comclusion after 18 games going 9-9? End of discussion

Do you really think Zorn is the man to lead the team or that he has a plan in place that just needs a little more time to develop?

If you think either of these things then I could maybe see where you're coming from. I'd strongly disagree, but I'd at least see what your argument was. Jim Zorn has no plan, no progress has been made and he's never going to have the time to develop a plan.

It's not impatient fans, it's the lack of any evidence that he knows how to install a system and build a football team around it.

And fans are surely the most objective and rational judges of that.