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Play Calling Isn't the Only Problem (RedskinsInsider)
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:15 am
by riggofan
We've been talking about some of this stuff on here this week. I just thought Jason Reid's piece was pretty good even though he is overly defensive of Zorn. My question about this piece is, yeah maybe the front office has totally sucked at building the team. But doesn't a good coach fight those battles and get the players he needs?
I just can't see Cowher or Parcells or somebody like that letting Vinny and Danny draft two WRs when our offensive line is beat to heck. With your career and reputation on the line as a coach, you have to fight for these things.
Here's the blog if you want to check it out:
Play-Calling Isn't the Only Problem
The loss of Randy Thomas is another blow to an offensive line that has struggled to start the season. It was highly unlikely that Thomas, who underwent neck and knee surgeries in the offseason, would make it through the season. Offensive line coach Joe Bugel expressed concern about Thomas in the preseason after he experienced knee pain, and Coach Jim Zorn acknowledged that Thomas would have to take it easy at times during the week. And then Thomas suffers a season-ending torn right triceps against the Rams.
Right tackle Stephon Heyer has performed poorly in pass protection at key moments in the first two games and been ineffective in run blocking, league sources said, and center Casey Rabach was not especially effective in the running game against the Rams. Pro Bowl left tackle Chris Samuels still is the team's best lineman, but how long will his knee hold up? Second-year guard Chad Rinehart showed promise at times in the preseason, and will move into the starting lineup in place of Thomas, but he has never played in a regular-season game.
"It just a tough situation right now," quarterback Jason Campbell said. "To lose the experience a guy like Randy brings ... you definitely don't want to lose that. Rinehart is a young guy, he showed some good things, and we have confidence in everybody we put out there. But Randy is a big loss."
In their internal offseason evaluation of the roster, the Redskins identified the offensive line as their main deficiency. Thomas sat out most of the 2007 season because of a left triceps injury and was slowed by neck and knee problems in 2008. But the Redskins would have taken a $9.6 million salary-cap hit if they released him, so that wasn't an option.
In the offseason, defensive tackle Albert Haynesworth received $41 million guaranteed and cornerback DeAngelo Hall almost $23 million guaranteed. In the biggest addition for the offensive line, the Redskins signed tackle Mike Williams, who hasn't played in a regular-season game since 2005.
Is it Zorn's fault the people in charge of player personnel have not appropriately addressed an offensive line clearly in need of help? I don't think it can be overstated what a bad job management has done constructing and replenishing the offensive line.
Anyone who reads the Insider, or the print edition of our sports section, knows we've written a lot about the Redskins' draft philosophy. Jason La Canfora and I combined on a long story in the previous offseason in which we compared the Redskins' approach to that of others teams.
Under owner Daniel Snyder, our reporting showed the Redskins have not built their line through the drafts as others have. Is the Redskins' approach successful? Well, judge for yourselves: They've failed to qualify for the playoffs in seven of Snyder's 10 seasons as owner.
As I wrote in another recent post, the Redskins haven't been a consistent offensive force since the days of Joe Gibbs 1.0. Former play-caller Al Saunders directed a big-time offense while with the Kansas City Chiefs, but he came to Washington and couldn't get it done. Regardless what you think of Saunders, that's just a fact.
I'm not saying Zorn does not deserve some of the blame for the Redskins' current problems on offense. I disagree with his reasoning for attempting that end-around option pass on the second play of the season in the opener against the New York Giants and the halfback-option pass against the St. Louis Rams.
But is it Zorn's fault that wide receiver Devin Thomas and fullback Mike Sellers couldn't come up with catches in the end zone early against the Rams? Is it his fault he's working with a roster that doesn't have nearly the amount of talent as some of the people in the big offices at Redskins Park seem to believe? I mean, really, what's the expectation level around here with the way they've constructed the team?
Gibbs won three Super Bowls in his first stint with Washington. The best he could do under Snyder was a 10-victory season and one playoff win in 2005. Gibbs also went 9-7 in 2007 and qualified for the playoffs, but the Redskins were 6-10 under him in 2004 and 5-11 in 2006.
From what people around here often tell me, there never has been a better coach in any sport than Gibbs, and the Redskins weren't that good despite all his football knowledge and Snyder's money. Washington hasn't won as many as 11 games since it went 14-2 and won the Super Bowl under Gibbs after the 1991 season.
My point is, this has not been an elite franchise in a long, long time, and that's not Zorn's fault. As for Zorn's spread offense and play-calling, well, that is on him.
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:43 am
by VetSkinsFan
JC had fairly decent protection, especially vs the Rams. I also read that the O-line's blocking scheme has changed to alleviate JC of some of the protection responsibility. It's FUBAR'd the running game, but that's a different point.
El is good in the slot.
ey's good. I blame Smith/Zorn for not adapting to the Giants not letting Moss off the line, at least partially.
If JC has the time, receivers will get open (see
ey's 14 and El's 11 receptions for the 1st two games). When the field shrinks, so does Zorn's playcalling. As illustrated, two non-established receivers (sorry, Sellers is a FB, not an established receiver) dropped TDs last week; that's not on Zorn. The halfback option on 3rd...that's on Zorn.
Something's got to change.
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:14 pm
by MEZZSKIN
We can talk about change this or change that...at the end of the day.
Campbell needs to make a play or make more plays ..PERIOD END OF STORY
funny --Ravens had a bad offense for over a decade---draft FLACCO --BOOM THERE AN EFFICIENT OFFENSE
Cowboys stunk offensively for years --post Aikman
Romo EMERGES...boom they score a ton
Saints went from decent offense to JUGGERNAUT on the O side of the ball
who did they get couple years back
Brees!
Chiefs Lost Trent Green...have you seen there offense lately
Cardinals plug in Warner last year---BOOM--POINTS GALORE
Dolphins get Pennington---BOOM contender for playoffs
there is a common demoninator here-----its not play calling..its not coaches
ITS THE QB's!!!!
We need better QB play !!!..
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:45 pm
by roybus14
They say that the NFL is a "copy-cat" league. Maybe for the other 27 teams (minus Washington, Oakland, Detroit, St. Louis, KC) in the NFL but not here.
The biggest problem with this team is two-fold.
The personnel gambling and the other is personality.
1. The personnel gambling was that we took three skilled positions in last year's draft with the hopes that one or two would be a stud in year one and definitely a stud this year. Didn't happen. So now you've gambled one or two of those picks on skill positions instead of getting a stud guard.
Is it Zorn's fault? Maybe.. It could be a situation where he not's allowed to "shop for the groceries". Is it the front office's fault? Definitely. It's their job to plan properly for the future. Someone called into to 980 yesterday and made the comparison between this organization and the pro football operation 35 miles up 95 North. There is no comparison. The front office is solid and they have a "culture" up there. Harbaugh planted his flag and got buy in from the "franchise guy" Ray-Ray. Made him give up one of his two lockers he had. They got a stud (Gaither) on their line that played with Heyer at Maryland that they actually got in the supplemental draft. They are able to reload with the right pieces every year and put themselves in contention to via for the playoffs and Super Bowl.
2. Personality. This team has not developed a personality like that of the Ravens, the Steelers, the Patriots, etc. that actually coaches it's players to become studs, put's them in position to succeed and develops a "swagger". Don't get me wrong, speaking about the defense, it has been pretty good for a few years now but it appears that players are taught to be in "position" and not coached to make plays. Baltimore has a culture and a personality on defense and they've lost two defensive coordinators (Lewis then Ryan) but have been able to maintain a high level of play and get the most out of the players that they plug in when guys leave. They coach them and encourage a certain attitude/swagger and it's made them pretty damn good. Part of that is Ray and part of that is the culture that has been cultivated there. It's survived coaching and player changes. But it all starts from the top down. Steelers' management is a perfect of example of effective "top down" leadership. Six Super Bowls including two in this decade with two different head coaches and a young QB....
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:34 pm
by riggofan
MEZZSKIN wrote:We can talk about change this or change that...at the end of the day.
Campbell needs to make a play or make more plays ..PERIOD END OF STORY
Make more plays? You mean like scrambling twice for 13 and 14 yards?
I get what you're saying. There's no doubt we would be a better offense if we had Drew Brees.
But you're wrong to write "END OF STORY" here.
In the Rams game inside the 20, we ran the ball on 10 of 16 snaps. Another snap we gave it to Portis to throw. So Campbell gets 5 chances to "make a play". Oh but wait, two of those chances to "make a play" are dropped TD passes by Sellers and Thomas.
So the blame the QB crowd is demanding that Campbell make more plays. How about they call some plays for him to make?
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:08 pm
by brad7686
Before this turns into another off topic Qb thread, lets just get back to the point. The right side of the line has been completely horrible, especially vs. the run. When they try to run left, teams know its coming, and when they try to run right, they fail. Obviously, this means more passing is necessary, which was seen last week. But this has been for quite a while a good running team. Losing that balance is not going to be good for this offense. It will be especially evident against teams like the rams, who should get absolutely trampled by the line. Did you see Dallas run all over the G-men? If Romo didn't lay an egg they would have won easily because of the run, against the friggin Giants D-line. The line is really avoiding a lot of blame, because lets face it, nobody cares about the line. They care about the QB, RB, WR's, etc.
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:47 pm
by Gametime33
"So the blame the QB crowd is demanding that Campbell make more plays. How about they call some plays for him to make?"
Absolutely on the money with this observation.
Jason can't make his case to stay beyond this season as the starting QB if he is not allowed to show us what he can do in a meaningful game situation.
4th and goal from the three-yard line and Zorn asks his makeshift o-line to open up a hole which happens to be where the Rams had stacked their d-linemen for better or for worse.
As Zorn said on Monday, "I call the plays to work. They just didn't work."
Sounds like a coach who is in denial.
Whatever system you are trying to run Coach is not good enough.
I saw Jason make plays by avoiding the rush. He didn't get sacked due to his in the pocket awareness.
A few of
ey's catches were a direct result of Jason's field vision.
He didn't let the Umenyora play happen again which shows me he can think on his feet when the pressure is on.
Jason has not been a consistent performer, which has hurt him in the fickle fan world known as Ol DC.
I have no excuses for what he has not done.
I can only analyze the potential of what he can do given the proper guidance.
I'll be tuning in to the next round of As the Zorn Turns on Sunday with the rest of the die-hards.
Go Skins.'
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:54 am
by SkinsJock
This is and always has been a team game - teams that play together will almost always beat better teams and coaches who for whatever reason on that particular day are not on the same page together - I feel that, while we have various issues, we should acknowlege that we have talented players and coaches who unfortunately are not doing their jobs well enough together
The coach needs to call plays that suit the players he has and the plays that he has designed to be most effective against the opposing team - if he cannot adjust then nothing else matters
The offensive line needs to play better together and execute - if they cannot work well together then it will not matter 1) If the game calling is perfect OR 2) the QB is doing his job well OR 3) the RBs are executing the play where it was designed to go OR 4) the receivers run the correct routes or execute their blocks downfield
The QB and the offensive play caller have to really have a lot of trust in each other to get the job done - if either one is not exactly sure of both what he can and will do at all times then you have an issue with all facets of the offense
It is easy to point to this or that (and the QB in DC always seems to be a popular scapegoat) but my opinion is that we have a lot of issues because we have a group of talented players and coaches that are not working well together - that means we are not a very good team
I am not sure about Zorn anymore and I am more convinced than ever that Campbell is not a good fit BUT we do not have a very good offensive line either and while they may have moments of making decent plays together they are not dominating like they need to and I have serious doubts about how well they will be playing at the end of the season
we have assembled a talented group but unfortunately as some here keep trying to point out they were not selected by people that know the NFL game very well and as a result they are not playing together as well as we would like - some can point to the coach or the QB but a good team is able to overcome these issues and be successful - when you play together nobody notices the problems, they all point to the good things that happen
Re: Play Calling Isn't the Only Problem (RedskinsInsider)
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:32 am
by Redskin in Canada
Play-Calling Isn't the Only Problem
...
Under owner Daniel Snyder, our reporting showed the Redskins have not built their line through the drafts as others have. Is the Redskins' approach successful? Well, judge for yourselves: They've failed to qualify for the playoffs in seven of Snyder's 10 seasons as owner.
...
But is it Zorn's fault that wide receiver Devin Thomas and fullback Mike Sellers couldn't come up with catches in the end zone early against the Rams? Is it his fault he's working with a roster that doesn't have nearly the amount of talent as some of the people in the big offices at Redskins Park seem to believe? I mean, really, what's the expectation level around here with the way they've constructed the team?
...
My point is, this has not been an elite franchise in a long, long time, and that's not Zorn's fault. As for Zorn's spread offense and play-calling, well, that is on him.
These three paragraphs summarise the points we have been making in a LONG while.
Glad to see that this is becoming popular and a generally accepted view among fans and reporters.
It starts at the top folks, at the top.
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:37 am
by Redskin in Canada
Your second point is an inescable conclusion from your first point:
roybus14 wrote:Is it Zorn's fault? Maybe.. It could be a situation where he not's allowed to "shop for the groceries". Is it the front office's fault? Definitely. It's their job to plan properly for the future. Someone called into to 980 yesterday and made the comparison between this organization and the pro football operation 35 miles up 95 North. There is no comparison. The front office is solid and they have a "culture" up there. Harbaugh planted his flag and got buy in from the "franchise guy" Ray-Ray. Made him give up one of his two lockers he had. They got a stud (Gaither) on their line that played with Heyer at Maryland that they actually got in the supplemental draft. They are able to reload with the right pieces every year and put themselves in contention to via for the playoffs and Super Bowl.
I hate the Ravens but I do not have the slightest question in my mind that the FO is in much better hands there. No question whatsoever.
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:03 am
by Bob 0119
MEZZSKIN wrote:funny --Ravens had a bad offense for over a decade---draft FLACCO --BOOM THERE AN EFFICIENT OFFENSE
Did you forget that they also had a new head coach?
MEZZSKIN wrote:Cowboys stunk offensively for years --post Aikman
Romo EMERGES...boom they score a ton
and yet that have still not won a playoff game...
MEZZSKIN wrote:Saints went from decent offense to JUGGERNAUT on the O side of the ball
who did they get couple years back
Brees!
Yes, they went from being a 3-13 team to a 10-6 team the first year they got Brees. They have gone 7-9, and 8-8 since then. They look tough this year, but they should; same coach and QB for four years. Hell we are on Zorn's second year and already many on this board are ready to run him out of town on a rail.
MEZZSKIN wrote:Chiefs Lost Trent Green...have you seen there offense lately
Yeah, they lost Dick Vermeil that same year too.
MEZZSKIN wrote:Cardinals plug in Warner last year---BOOM--POINTS GALORE
You mean the same Kurt Warner they've had for the past four years, entering his fifth season. Who made the playoffs with a 9-7 record last year? Yeah, he was an instant answer, that's why they keep trying to replace him.
MEZZSKIN wrote:Dolphins get Pennington---BOOM contender for playoffs
They also got a new head coach the same year.
MEZZSKIN wrote:there is a common demoninator here-----its not play calling..its not coaches
ITS THE QB's!!!!
We need better QB play !!!..
That wasn't proven with these examples
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:04 pm
by roybus14
"we have assembled a talented group but unfortunately as some here keep trying to point out they were not selected by people that know the NFL game very well and as a result they are not playing together as well as we would like - some can point to the coach or the QB but a good team is able to overcome these issues and be successful - when you play together nobody notices the problems, they all point to the good things that happen."
Good observation but let me take it one step further. The talent is here but I don't think that we have the right coaches coaching it. This team right now and even for the past couple of years, needs a veteran HC or a new HC that is a stickler for discipline and accountability and a task master. Blache has done a good job with this defense but with the talent on it, it should be more of an attacking and dictating defense instead of a "bend but don't break" one. Playing "bend but don't break" defense wears down a defense because can't get off the field until they have held which usually after a long drive and the team kicks FG. CBs continuously setting up 5 yards pass the marker on a 3rd and 5 is silly. The offense could be alot more effective if they were held accountable and more disciplined.
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:30 pm
by CanesSkins26
Did you forget that they also had a new head coach?
Harbaugh is a defensive coach and has very little to do with the offense. The Ravens are a much better offensive team not because of Flacco. That should be clear to anybody that watches their games.
Yes, they went from being a 3-13 team to a 10-6 team the first year they got Brees. They have gone 7-9, and 8-8 since then. They look tough this year, but they should; same coach and QB for four years. Hell we are on Zorn's second year and already many on this board are ready to run him out of town on a rail.
Their struggles were because of their defense, not their offense.
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:57 pm
by Deadskins
roybus14 wrote:"we have assembled a talented group but unfortunately as some here keep trying to point out they were not selected by people that know the NFL game very well and as a result they are not playing together as well as we would like - some can point to the coach or the QB but a good team is able to overcome these issues and be successful - when you play together nobody notices the problems, they all point to the good things that happen."
Good observation but let me take it one step further. The talent is here but I don't think that we have the right coaches coaching it. This team right now and even for the past couple of years, needs a veteran HC or a new HC that is a stickler for discipline and accountability and a task master. Blache has done a good job with this defense but with the talent on it, it should be more of an attacking and dictating defense instead of a "bend but don't break" one. Playing "bend but don't break" defense wears down a defense because can't get off the field until they have held which usually after a long drive and the team kicks FG. CBs continuously setting up 5 yards pass the marker on a 3rd and 5 is silly. The offense could be alot more effective if they were held accountable and more disciplined.
If the defense can't get off the field, then how did we win the time of posession battle?
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:58 am
by VetSkinsFan
Deadskins wrote:roybus14 wrote:"we have assembled a talented group but unfortunately as some here keep trying to point out they were not selected by people that know the NFL game very well and as a result they are not playing together as well as we would like - some can point to the coach or the QB but a good team is able to overcome these issues and be successful - when you play together nobody notices the problems, they all point to the good things that happen."
Good observation but let me take it one step further. The talent is here but I don't think that we have the right coaches coaching it. This team right now and even for the past couple of years, needs a veteran HC or a new HC that is a stickler for discipline and accountability and a task master. Blache has done a good job with this defense but with the talent on it, it should be more of an attacking and dictating defense instead of a "bend but don't break" one. Playing "bend but don't break" defense wears down a defense because can't get off the field until they have held which usually after a long drive and the team kicks FG. CBs continuously setting up 5 yards pass the marker on a 3rd and 5 is silly. The offense could be alot more effective if they were held accountable and more disciplined.
If the defense can't get off the field, then how did we win the time of posession battle?
This season, we're actually 1-1 with the ToP battle.
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:48 am
by RayNAustin
Deadskins wrote:roybus14 wrote:"we have assembled a talented group but unfortunately as some here keep trying to point out they were not selected by people that know the NFL game very well and as a result they are not playing together as well as we would like - some can point to the coach or the QB but a good team is able to overcome these issues and be successful - when you play together nobody notices the problems, they all point to the good things that happen."
Good observation but let me take it one step further. The talent is here but I don't think that we have the right coaches coaching it. This team right now and even for the past couple of years, needs a veteran HC or a new HC that is a stickler for discipline and accountability and a task master. Blache has done a good job with this defense but with the talent on it, it should be more of an attacking and dictating defense instead of a "bend but don't break" one. Playing "bend but don't break" defense wears down a defense because can't get off the field until they have held which usually after a long drive and the team kicks FG. CBs continuously setting up 5 yards pass the marker on a 3rd and 5 is silly. The offense could be alot more effective if they were held accountable and more disciplined.
If the defense can't get off the field, then how did we win the time of posession battle?
Keeping the ball for more than three plays on offensive series would help. And scoring points would help too. If the defensive didn't need to limit the opposition to 10 points or less each week in order to win, maybe they could employ a more aggressive strategy . But when the offense only scores 12 points on average, the defense can't afford to take many gambles.
In the end though, as proven by the Colts last week (they lost the time of possession battle 45-15 and still won and still scored 27 points) the only battle that really counts is the point battle.
The defense is doing it's job ... and the offense is not. That is the bottom line.
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:14 pm
by Deadskins
RayNAustin wrote:Deadskins wrote:roybus14 wrote:"we have assembled a talented group but unfortunately as some here keep trying to point out they were not selected by people that know the NFL game very well and as a result they are not playing together as well as we would like - some can point to the coach or the QB but a good team is able to overcome these issues and be successful - when you play together nobody notices the problems, they all point to the good things that happen."
Good observation but let me take it one step further. The talent is here but I don't think that we have the right coaches coaching it. This team right now and even for the past couple of years, needs a veteran HC or a new HC that is a stickler for discipline and accountability and a task master. Blache has done a good job with this defense but with the talent on it, it should be more of an attacking and dictating defense instead of a "bend but don't break" one. Playing "bend but don't break" defense wears down a defense because can't get off the field until they have held which usually after a long drive and the team kicks FG. CBs continuously setting up 5 yards pass the marker on a 3rd and 5 is silly. The offense could be alot more effective if they were held accountable and more disciplined.
If the defense can't get off the field, then how did we win the time of posession battle?
Keeping the ball for more than three plays on offensive series would help. And scoring points would help too. If the defensive didn't need to limit the opposition to 10 points or less each week in order to win, maybe they could employ a more aggressive strategy . But when the offense only scores 12 points on average, the defense can't afford to take many gambles.
In the end though, as proven by the Colts last week (they lost the time of possession battle 45-15 and still won and still scored 27 points) the only battle that really counts is the point battle.
The defense is doing it's job ... and the offense is not. That is the bottom line.
Obviously, you can win a game without winning the TOP battle, but it's idiotic to say keep the ball for more than 3 plays when we win the TOP. I understand you want more points out of the offense. Everyone does. But they are generating sustained drives, and keeping the D off the field and therefor, fresh.