The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I didn't want to derail the Orakpo thread, so I'll start this:

ArlingtonSkinsFan wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:I want to know what the projected lineup is going to be for week 1.

I wish we could get this excited about our offense!!

I actually am excited for the offense as well. JC's 2nd year in the offense. I feel that we only have 1 potential hole at RT if Jansen or Heyer can't return to form or step respectively. The rest of the line, IMO, can be solid.

CP's can actually get some help b/c JC's in the 2nd year of JZ's offense. Couple that with the chance of pace back they the skins seem to be pursing in Aldridge, Mason, and the other guy that escapes me. This is what we need.

I think we have a good choance of 1 of the new WRs stepping up this year. If just one of these guys develop in to a starter this year, that puts El in the slot, and I don't think many nickel CBs or safeties will be able to keep up with him. I think it's a safe bet to safe a LB couldn't handle that. This would also free up Moss a bit and loosen up some of those doubles he sees throughout the year.

I'm excited about our offense, I just have no one to talk offense with.

Shouldn't a thread about offensive thoughts be in smack?



Anyway, I'm excited about the offense. I think Zorn saw things that didn't work last year and is changing them for this year. For instance he saw how ey has got to get out in the passing game and that's going to happen if the line is better and if the passing game opens up a little. We have Thomas, Kelly, Williams and others on the way and SOMEONE will push ARE to the slot.

As for CP I don't know what to expect. We gotta do something to keep him fresh... and I don't know if we can expect camp fodder to blossom into a change of pace back worthy of the final roster. That's the key IMO. If Portis can stay healthy we're going to the playoffs.

The passing game can keep him fresh, if successful, at least in part. Opening those running lanes by backing off the LBs will help. Also, if the line can keep DL off of him, that would improve his shelf life as well.

I think we will be ok. As someone said in another thread- If we could only average 21 points a game... As far a CP goes I have no idea how to keep him fresh with what we have in camp this year. We depend too much on him to carry the offense. I know this is key. If he was spelled properly he would be the difference in the post season for us. JC I believe will be better this year. I think we have wide covered. We are bringing in a few vets that could help if our rookies from last year struggle. I think this is key. I think the staff is doing all they can with whats available. Jansen is supposedly coming in camp in great shape and this will help him not run out of gas in the second half of the season. Our running game is much better when he is in the game. I know this thread is about offense but our defense will give our offense more opportunities. If all goes well and Kelly can be healthy then we finally might have someone to stretch those chains consistently. I think he has more potential than Thomas. I am even excited about Thomas. He should be the guy that should take advantage if and when Moss is doubled. So all in all things look better at least on paper.

Kilmer72 wrote:I think we will be ok. As someone said in another thread- If we could only average 21 points a game... As far a CP goes I have no idea how to keep him fresh with what we have in camp this year. We depend too much on him to carry the offense. I know this is key. If he was spelled properly he would be the difference in the post season for us. JC I believe will be better this year. I think we have wide covered. We are bringing in a few vets that could help if our rookies from last year struggle. I think this is key. I think the staff is doing all they can with whats available. Jansen is supposedly coming in camp in great shape and this will help him not run out of gas in the second half of the season. Our running game is much better when he is in the game. I know this thread is about offense but our defense will give our offense more opportunities. If all goes well and Kelly can be healthy then we finally might have someone to stretch those chains consistently. I think he has more potential than Thomas. I am even excited about Thomas. He should be the guy that should take advantage if and when Moss is doubled. So all in all things look better at least on paper.

Key to preserving CP is to have a good passing game. If he doesn't have to carry the whole team for us to win, he'll have more breathers and breaks in a game. It will also mean more carry for Betts. I'd love to see him sit out the first 6 to 8 games and let betts do his thing, then bring CP in strong for the rest of the games and have him peak at the post season.

SKINFAN wrote:

Kilmer72 wrote:I think we will be ok. As someone said in another thread- If we could only average 21 points a game... As far a CP goes I have no idea how to keep him fresh with what we have in camp this year. We depend too much on him to carry the offense. I know this is key. If he was spelled properly he would be the difference in the post season for us. JC I believe will be better this year. I think we have wide covered. We are bringing in a few vets that could help if our rookies from last year struggle. I think this is key. I think the staff is doing all they can with whats available. Jansen is supposedly coming in camp in great shape and this will help him not run out of gas in the second half of the season. Our running game is much better when he is in the game. I know this thread is about offense but our defense will give our offense more opportunities. If all goes well and Kelly can be healthy then we finally might have someone to stretch those chains consistently. I think he has more potential than Thomas. I am even excited about Thomas. He should be the guy that should take advantage if and when Moss is doubled. So all in all things look better at least on paper.

Key to preserving CP is to have a good passing game. If he doesn't have to carry the whole team for us to win, he'll have more breathers and breaks in a game. It will also mean more carry for Betts. I'd love to see him sit out the first 6 to 8 games and let betts do his thing, then bring CP in strong for the rest of the games and have him peak at the post season.

Betts and CP are very similar in the fact that they need to be feature backs. We still have the problem of a spell back for either one of them.

WIth that said, I still don't like not having CP on the field if he's healthy. He's a playmaker. He's one of the best blocking backs in the league (Betts isn't). He catches very well out of the backfield. CP strengths you could build your offense around. He can't sit out 1/2 the year.

Those are some offensive thoughts you've got there, Vet.

Irn-Bru wrote:Those are some offensive thoughts you've got there, Vet.

Irn-Bru wrote:Those are some offensive thoughts you've got there, Vet.

And Irn-Bru snags the low-hanging fruit!

VetSkinsFan wrote: I'm excited about our offense, I just have no one to talk offense with.

so let's look at it

JC's 2nd year in the offense.

My issue is that when Zorn took over last year he indicated he was going to help and ensure that Campbell would be very comfortable with what the team needed from him as a player and with whatever game plan suited him as a QB.
Before the season, Zorn indicated that we all would see Campbell playing at a much better level - NOT - I just think he cannot do the basics very well - as Chris keeps saying "why can't he hit Moss in stride?" Good QBs get the job done, somehow, someway - not this guy!
I just am not sure that Campbell has the ability to be a lot better. At this time and with this group of players we do not need him to be a good QB (which he is), we need him to be a very good QB.

I feel that we only have 1 potential hole at RT if Jansen or Heyer can't return to form or step up respectively. The rest of the line, IMO, can be solid.

I am sorry but I am very concerned about what I saw last year especially against lines like the Steelers and the Ravens - we need a serious upgrade along the offensive line.

Clinton Portis can actually get some help b/c JC's in the 2nd year of JZ's offense.

How does that "help" Portis?

Couple that with the change of pace back that the skins seem to be pursuing in Aldridge, Mason, and the other guy that escapes me (Dorsey?). This is what we need.

I agree but this is not a given - we are looking at these guys but also because we have other needs - I do hope that one of them can provide that but that is a bit of a stretch

I think we have a good choance of 1 of the new WRs stepping up this year. If just one of these guys develop in to a starter this year, that puts El in the slot, and I don't think many nickel CBs or safeties will be able to keep up with him. I think it's a safe bet to say a LB couldn't handle that. This would also free up Moss a bit and loosen up some of those doubles he sees throughout the year.

agree - but if the line cannot be a lot more effective than we saw last year - Campbell will not get much time to throw and we know that he needs a lot of time

I am hopeful about the offense and we do have some talented players but I am still concerned about how much better we need to be from what we saw last year and I'm not sure we have made that much of a quantum leap

but - it is going to be fun watching this defense play

SkinsJock wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote: I'm excited about our offense, I just have no one to talk offense with.

so let's look at it

JC's 2nd year in the offense.

My issue is that when Zorn took over last year he indicated he was going to help and ensure that Campbell would be very comfortable with what the team needed from him as a player and with whatever game plan suited him as a QB.
Before the season, Zorn indicated that we all would see Campbell playing at a much better level - NOT - I just think he cannot do the basics very well - as Chris keeps saying "why can't he hit Moss in stride?" Good QBs get the job done, somehow, someway - not this guy!
I just am not sure that Campbell has the ability to be a lot better. At this time and with this group of players we do not need him to be a good QB (which he is), we need him to be a very good QB.

So, after less than a full off-season, you're ready to condemn a rookie head coach and a QB that's never been in a system for 3 consecutive years? I don't think JC's the second coming of Montana, but I'm willing to give him at least two years (that's not even having two full off-seasons) under Zorn in the same offense. I think he at least deserves that.

SkinsJock wrote:

I feel that we only have 1 potential hole at RT if Jansen or Heyer can't return to form or step up respectively. The rest of the line, IMO, can be solid.

I am sorry but I am very concerned about what I saw last year especially against lines like the Steelers and the Ravens - we need a serious upgrade along the offensive line.

To overkill a point, use arguably the two best defenses in the league after our star RB was dinged up along with 1/2 of the offensive line. Please note that I never said we had a new Hogs generation of offensive line, but I think the offensiveline can work. Double D came back (he did well with us the first time around with these same guys and also under Buges). I have optimism, not blind fanaticism, please note the difference!

SkinsJock wrote:

Clinton Portis can actually get some help b/c JC's in the 2nd year of JZ's offense.

How does that "help" Portis?

Because if we can actually pass the ball, the sole game plan of the opposing defensive coordinator isn't going to be stuff CP!

SkinsJock wrote:

Couple that with the change of pace back that the skins seem to be pursuing in Aldridge, Mason, and the other guy that escapes me (Dorsey?). This is what we need.

I agree but this is not a given - we are looking at these guys but also because we have other needs - I do hope that one of them can provide that but that is a bit of a stretch

This is optimism. I see what they appear to be doing and I like it. Please show me where I said we'll now have a Roger Craig on 3rd down? Stop reading in to what I'm saying and read what I'm saying.

SkinsJock wrote:

I think we have a good chance of 1 of the new WRs stepping up this year. If just one of these guys develop in to a starter this year, that puts El in the slot, and I don't think many nickel CBs or safeties will be able to keep up with him. I think it's a safe bet to say a LB couldn't handle that. This would also free up Moss a bit and loosen up some of those doubles he sees throughout the year.

agree - but if the line cannot be a lot more effective than we saw last year - Campbell will not get much time to throw and we know that he needs a lot of time

That's where we stray...
I do believe that we have improved the line. I think I addressed that in an above point. We still have work to do on the line, but we've made progress with Double D.

I also have said that I believed that Jansen wasn't fully confident in his ankle, and who would blame him. With a full year of no set backs, I think his confidence is back. Isn't this where all of the Heyer fans chime in as well?

Same with Thomas and that neck injury. Whoever thinks that he wasn't concerned with a jolt and a bit of bad luck ending his career and paralyzing him didn't affect his game play is naive.

SkinsJock wrote:I am hopeful about the offense and we do have some talented players but I am still concerned about how much better we need to be from what we saw last year and I'm not sure we have made that much of a quantum leap

but - it is going to be fun watching this defense play

Is there a little bit of optimism mixed in with my analysis? Hell yeah, there is, but why not err on the side of success when analyzing your favorite team? I realize that all of my analysis uses favorable outcomes and realistically, I'm not expecting ALL of it to be true. To say that none of it can be true, though, isn't my way. It's the off-season and this is when I renew my faith in my team.

People keep saying defense wins championships. Well, I think we have that defense now. All we need from JC is to manage the game. Isn't that what the Ravens philosophy is, the same Ravens that people keep bashing the Redskins with?

I am going to enjoy watching all those little things come together for our offense this season

I am very big on Zorn and hope that he is given an opportunity here to show he's a good HC no matter what happens with Campbell this year - even if we go less than 8-8, which I think is very likely - that is, unless he demonstrates that he is clearly not suited for the job

VetSkinsFan wrote: Is there a little bit of optimism mixed in with my analysis? Hell yeah, there is, but why not err on the side of success when analyzing your favorite team? I realize that all of my analysis uses favorable outcomes and realistically, I'm not expecting ALL of it to be true. To say that none of it can be true, though, isn't my way. It's the off-season and this is when I renew my faith in my team.

Been there, done that - even got the T shirt check my posts in 2006 and 2007
Like looking in a mirror for me but I have recently realized that we are going nowhere but middle of the road with this group, managing this team - I am also hopeful like you, but at the same time I realize we are not going to be able to compete against better managed franchises until we get a better group managing the players and coaches and we have a better team

Each year we have a great 'team' on paper but they are not able to make each other better because nobody knows how to find players that make each other better and play together as a team

I have never been one to admit defeat. I refuse to let the mediocrity that manages this team dimish my love or optimism for my favorite team in all of sports.

I have never claimed Super Bowl in the pre-season and I never will. I will, however, hold the thought that we can do it any given year. The Giants did it two years ago. Flip that thought and you have the Cowboys who are always slotted to go to the big game. When's the last time they won a playoff game?

I will continue to see the glass half full in every new off-season and every circumstance and give that circumstance the opportunity to prove me wrong.

I believe in this off-season we've gained more than we've lost. By that formula, we have improved our team overall. The only loss really was Springs, and he was part time due to his injury past. Yes, there are still needs, but every team has needs every year. Maybe not as strong as ours this year, but they all have needs none the less.

VetSkinsFan wrote:I believe in this off-season we've gained more than we've lost. By that formula, we have improved our team overall. The only loss really was Springs, and he was part time due to his injury past. Yes, there are still needs, but every team has needs every year. Maybe not as strong as ours this year, but they all have needs none the less.

QFT

PulpExposure wrote:

Irn-Bru wrote:Those are some offensive thoughts you've got there, Vet.

And Irn-Bru snags the low-hanging fruit!

When that's about all you're capable of, it doesn't seem so cheap. . .

VetSkinsFan wrote:I believe in this off-season we've gained more than we've lost. By that formula, we have improved our team overall. The only loss really was Springs, and he was part time due to his injury past. Yes, there are still needs, but every team has needs every year. Maybe not as strong as ours this year, but they all have needs none the less.

I agree with this, but I think SkinsJock makes a compelling case that, while our team is getting better compared to itself, relative to other teams (esp. the NFC East) we seem to be falling a little behind.

Irn-Bru wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:I believe in this off-season we've gained more than we've lost. By that formula, we have improved our team overall. The only loss really was Springs, and he was part time due to his injury past. Yes, there are still needs, but every team has needs every year. Maybe not as strong as ours this year, but they all have needs none the less.

I agree with this, but I think SkinsJock makes a compelling case that, while our team is getting better compared to itself, relative to other teams (esp. the NFC East) we seem to be falling a little behind.

a "little behind" wins the euphemism of the day in the most competitive Division in the Conference.

Jokko is right. End of story. Call a spade a spade.

Being that the case, Go Skins!!!

VetSkinsFan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote: I'm excited about our offense, I just have no one to talk offense with.

so let's look at it

JC's 2nd year in the offense.

My issue is that when Zorn took over last year he indicated he was going to help and ensure that Campbell would be very comfortable with what the team needed from him as a player and with whatever game plan suited him as a QB.
Before the season, Zorn indicated that we all would see Campbell playing at a much better level - NOT - I just think he cannot do the basics very well - as Chris keeps saying "why can't he hit Moss in stride?" Good QBs get the job done, somehow, someway - not this guy!
I just am not sure that Campbell has the ability to be a lot better. At this time and with this group of players we do not need him to be a good QB (which he is), we need him to be a very good QB.

So, after less than a full off-season, you're ready to condemn a rookie head coach and a QB that's never been in a system for 3 consecutive years? I don't think JC's the second coming of Montana, but I'm willing to give him at least two years (that's not even having two full off-seasons) under Zorn in the same offense. I think he at least deserves that.

In terms of your last statement, what makes you believe he deserves that? What has he done? What has he accomplished besides being a first round draft pick that, as a team, we invested 2 first rounders on. I don't see what he deserves. He has accomplished absolutely nothing for the skins organization. In the 4 years he has been here, we have gone to the playoffs twice --- both times being when he was NOT the starting QB. Both years he was the starting QB, we didn't make the playoffs. You can also argue that had JC not been injured, we wouldn't have made the playoffs then either.

jc is the main reason why the teams not good there the most positive thing on the board
It is ridiculous to try to top his performance from last year because that was then this year if he can dodge the sad method the skins had to try to stop the defense then prhaps his arm speed will increase and thats goingt o help the recievers hand just a good try to make sense out of the coaching change and why we did not get a coach that would run plays to require a slower release and 3 probowl recievers

the QB and the widouts will have much better timing this year and if the oline cmes through like expected they will have a great offense I do not see a problem with the oline it is full of veteran leaders and good young reliable blockers, Jansen and Samuel will be fine on the corners and the Qb is going to be able to pass with more confidence I think he did good last year not getting sacked and throwing INTS< is all, Zorns offense is a project in the making and atleast was not a complete emabrassment.

I am trying to be as positive as I can but the reality is that we have to hope that too many things go right for us offensively - I understand that each team is going through the same scenario of putting things in place at this time of year but when I look at where we are and what has to happen for this team to be effective offensively it is just a little frustrating.

The reality is that I think that if all the minor miracles happen to this offense - I still do not think it is enough to consider that we are a team that is going to win a lot of games this year. The other reality is that is mainly due in my opinion to who the management here has selected to be a part of this team this year.

It will be very interesting to see how Snyder responds to the fact that the team did not do very well because of the players that his group are responsible for I'll be very disapointed if we have a new coach again next year when this coach has not been given the type of players who give him the best chance at successfully making into a good team

ya it is a a long shot, really if I could asses the turn around fron the first eight games and the second eight games of last year then I could find the problem I am optimistic and I think the offense does well, # 1 thing the deep ball thats the miricle and it aint likly to happen

markshark84 wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote: I'm excited about our offense, I just have no one to talk offense with.

so let's look at it

JC's 2nd year in the offense.

My issue is that when Zorn took over last year he indicated he was going to help and ensure that Campbell would be very comfortable with what the team needed from him as a player and with whatever game plan suited him as a QB.
Before the season, Zorn indicated that we all would see Campbell playing at a much better level - NOT - I just think he cannot do the basics very well - as Chris keeps saying "why can't he hit Moss in stride?" Good QBs get the job done, somehow, someway - not this guy!
I just am not sure that Campbell has the ability to be a lot better. At this time and with this group of players we do not need him to be a good QB (which he is), we need him to be a very good QB.

So, after less than a full off-season, you're ready to condemn a rookie head coach and a QB that's never been in a system for 3 consecutive years? I don't think JC's the second coming of Montana, but I'm willing to give him at least two years (that's not even having two full off-seasons) under Zorn in the same offense. I think he at least deserves that.

In terms of your last statement, what makes you believe he deserves that? What has he done? What has he accomplished besides being a first round draft pick that, as a team, we invested 2 first rounders on. I don't see what he deserves. He has accomplished absolutely nothing for the skins organization. In the 4 years he has been here, we have gone to the playoffs twice --- both times being when he was NOT the starting QB. Both years he was the starting QB, we didn't make the playoffs. You can also argue that had JC not been injured, we wouldn't have made the playoffs then either.

What makes me believe this? I believe ANY QB deserves at least two conescutive years in the same offense before condemning them to the term bust. Jason has not had this. H looked good in college (I am aware it was one year and I am aware of the two elite RBs he had behind him).

He's shown flashes of above average QBing in the times that it seems he's doing what he can instinctually(no huddle).

Personally, at this point, I'm not worried about the playoffs. If JC becomes a solid average consistant QB this year, then we have something to work with. At this point, we don't even know what he's capable of. One year (didn't even have the whole off-season to prepare) in a new system with a great QB now coach with a young QB under his wing doesn't strike me as giving him a fair shake.

Look back in time. The greats, as a rule, had consistancy in their schemes and offenses. Not 100% conistancy, but there was a nice element of consistancy.

I'm not saying that Jason will succeed or fail, but me personally, I would like to see what he can do given a little consistancy. Maybe he'll fail and maybe he won't. I'm not comfortable condemning him with a revolving door of schemes...

VetSkinsFan wrote: .... I believe ANY QB deserves at least two conescutive years in the same offense before condemning them to the term bust. Jason has not had this. He looked good in college (I am aware it was one year and I am aware of the two elite RBs he had behind him).

He's shown flashes of above average QB skills in the times that it seems he's doing what he can instinctively (no huddle).

Personally, at this point, I'm not worried about the playoffs. If JC becomes a solid average consistant QB this year, then we have something to work with. At this point, we don't even know what he's capable of. One year (didn't even have the whole off-season to prepare) in a new system with a great QB now coach with a young QB under his wing doesn't strike me as giving him a fair shake.

Look back in time. The greats, as a rule, had consistancy in their schemes and offenses. Not 100% conistancy, but there was a nice element of consistancy.

I'm not saying that Jason will succeed or fail, but me personally, I would like to see what he can do given a little consistency. Maybe he'll fail and maybe he won't. I'm not comfortable condemning him with a revolving door of schemes ...

I think (and hope) that Campbell can be a better QB. I just would like to see the next QB already here because after what we have seen from him since he came in, coupled with what we saw last year, I do not think he's going to be good enough. I am not "condemning" him, I think he's going to be a good QB but I do not see him succeeding at the position as well as I think we need.
There are certain traits and leadership abilities that he seems to lack.


The thing is, this franchise has different 'schemes' that are put in place each year when a lot of other franchises have a long term plan that they continually upgrade (or try to).
We need to make a plan and stick with it.
Then you find that we have certain people managing that plan that really don't know how to plan in the first place and have no patience to let the plan develop or not.
I agree with you in that we need to have more patience with our players and our coaches but with this group that is not likely and I'll bet that heads will roll if we are not a whole lot better.
I do not mind changing what needs to be changed but those changes needs to be made to better suit the team not the owner and his advisors.

I like Campbell I just feel that the group here is not looking far enough ahead - we always seem to find a "gem" to bring in here each year but we do not seem to care how the additions fit in with what we have and where we are going.

I hope Campbell shows a huge improvement - I just wish we already had both his replacement here and had started work on the offensive side of the ball.

I am not against anything and like to look on the bright side as well - I just am very concerned about the plan for the future and who is managing that plan - I think these guys have no plan except to just add more expensive "gems" each year with no thought or plan for the long term.




I made the mistake of sitting next to RiC for the opening game of 2007 and since then I have thought that maybe my blind faith in the guys at the top is more than a little misplaced