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Why not an OT, and why a TE and WR instead?
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:51 pm
by Irn-Bru
One of the main discussions evolving from this draft was the Redskins drafting strategy in the 3rd to 7th rounds. You can put me in the camp that is a little baffled that the Redskins appeared to pass on the opportunity to grab
value in the 5th round by selecting an offensive tackle—an area of need, no less!—who most analysts believed was 3rd-4th round talent.
Maybe that wouldn't have been so bad, save that we drafted someone who (Cody Glenn) likely wasn't going to be picked up until the 6th and 7th rounds, anyway. (Yes, this is in practice impossible to know, since the Skins grabbed him. But there was some surprise over this pick from everyone I was listening to.)
OK. Well in the meantime Meredith and Robinson go off the board to other teams.
Then we draft a TE, and then a WR.
Take the TE first. I'm willing to grant that the FO sees him as developing, undiscovered talent. But even if he is, what's the point in drafting him?
ey is signed long-term, and Fred Davis can't get on the field as it is. Todd Yoder is a
very serviceable backup—worthy of 2nd string in the NFL, let alone being our emergency guy.
As for the WR. Well, maybe there is something here: another big guy to throw in the mix. But I get the distinct sense that the FO does not see the OL as a primary need for this team. They either think our returning starters are likely to play a full season, or they think recent signings are enough of a fix that drafting value in the 5th round wasn't needed.
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:11 pm
by Countertrey
Perhaps, FFA, but the possibility exists that Cerrato is just doing what he has said in the past that he was going to do during the draft... taking the best availible talent, as listed on their board.
Keep in mind... this philosophy is used by several of the most successful GM's in the league. No matter what approach he chooses to take, someone is going to be unhappy.
Re: Why not an OT, and why a TE and WR instead?
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:16 pm
by skinsfan#33
Irn-Bru wrote:One of the main discussions evolving from this draft was the Redskins drafting strategy in the 3rd to 7th rounds. You can put me in the camp that is a little baffled that the Redskins appeared to pass on the opportunity to grab
value in the 5th round by selecting an offensive tackle—an area of need, no less!—who most analysts believed was 3rd-4th round talent.
Maybe that wouldn't have been so bad, save that we drafted someone who (Cody Glenn) likely wasn't going to be picked up until the 6th and 7th rounds, anyway. (Yes, this is in practice impossible to know, since the Skins grabbed him. But there was some surprise over this pick from everyone I was listening to.)
OK. Well in the meantime Meredith and Robinson go off the board to other teams.
Then we draft a TE, and then a WR.
Take the TE first. I'm willing to grant that the FO sees him as developing, undiscovered talent. But even if he is, what's the point in drafting him?
ey is signed long-term, and Fred Davis can't get on the field as it is. Todd Yoder is a
very serviceable backup—worthy of 2nd string in the NFL, let alone being our emergency guy.
As for the WR. Well, maybe there is something here: another big guy to throw in the mix. But I get the distinct sense that the FO does not see the OL as a primary need for this team. They either think our returning starters are likely to play a full season, or they think recent signings are enough of a fix that drafting value in the 5th round wasn't needed.
The four letter network has E. williams listed as a FB. Maybe this is insurance for Sellers. Although the write up made him sound more like a TE/HB.
I still can't believe they didn't draft a OL! The only thing I can think is when they were picking in the third, maybe they didn't think anyone left in the entire draft was worth selecting. Or maybe they liked the kid from MD that much that they could pass him up in the third. but the two they drafted in the 5th and 6th probably could have been picked up as free agents. I'm certain that he could have been a FA.
They should have picked Meredith in the 5th and Glenn in the 6th (he still would have been there - and big deal if he wasn't). I'm fine with the guys they picked in the 7th.
I just can't see ANY of the guys we picked in the 5th round or below making the team!
We have gone through Free agency and the draft and we still don't have someone to start at SAM!
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:18 pm
by Irn-Bru
Countertrey wrote:Perhaps, FFA, but the possibility exists that Cerrato is just doing what he has said in the past that he was going to do during the draft... taking the best available talent, as listed on their board.
Maybe, but we took three players to meet areas of great need: one DE and two OLBs. Is it just coincidence, and the 'Skins had those two OLBs as the highest talent on their board when their pick came up?
What I think is going on is that they
are conscious of needs. They just don't think OL
is one of those needs. Or, at least, that's what I'm afraid of.
Keep in mind... this philosophy is used by several of the most successful GM's in the league. No matter what approach he chooses to take, someone is going to be unhappy.
Sure. But why specifically pass on these OLs in favor of an OLB and WR, not to mention the TE? (The TE is the biggest head-scratcher for me)
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:30 pm
by Countertrey
(The TE is the biggest head-scratcher for me)
Several sources list him as either an H Back or a Fullback as well. We have no idea what the Redskins call him. I do recall a statement by Zorn sometime last spring about how important the Fullback was to his system. We have only one player who could be called a fullback...
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:55 pm
by Wahoo McDaniels
I guess we plan on playing this season without a Right Tackle.
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:55 pm
by SkinsFreak
If you listen to Cerrato and Zorn's pressers from today, they drafted Eddie Williams as a fullback and said that's where they see him fitting in.
Cerrato said WR Marko Mitchell is 6'4 and ran a 4.36 in Indy. He is a developmental guy that has loads of talent and will compete for the 5th WR spot.
As far as the o-line goes, Vinny addresses that as well. He said this draft class was weak at o-line and when it came time to pick, there simply wasn't any good ones to be had. He also said that we have some depth and youngsters like Chad Rinehart and Devin Clark, guys who have already spent a year in the system and getting coached up by Buges, who will be expected to step up this year. And in reality, perhaps some of our young depth guys already on the roster were more appealing than a 7th round long term prospect.
Heyer was signed as an undrafted rookie and he's turned out to be a pleasant surprise. There will be undrafted players brought in and perhaps a player or two might get a shot.
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:01 pm
by SkinsFreak
Wahoo McDaniels wrote:I guess we plan on playing this season without a Right Tackle.
Yes, that's right. They're going to leave that spot open. On the right side, they'll go with a center, a guard, an open space, and then a TE split wide. Since Portis is such a good blocker, they figured he could just plug the hole. They'll also cut Jansen, ditch Williams, trade Heyer, cut the half dozen other OL depth players on the roster, not look at any undrafted rookies and ignore all other potential cuts or free agents from around the league.
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:10 pm
by brad7686
If I was Campbell, I'd try to get cut. He's going to get killed before he hits free agency. He surely isn't going to do enough with this O-line to get an extension. Other than Orakpo, Barnes, and Mitchell, the other people drafted shouldn't have been taken in a 14 round draft.
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:39 pm
by Countertrey
Other than Orakpo, Barnes, and Mitchell, the other people drafted shouldn't have been taken in a 14 round draft.
It's always good to get the thoughts of a top flight NFL talent evaluator.
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:54 pm
by brad7686
Countertrey wrote:Other than Orakpo, Barnes, and Mitchell, the other people drafted shouldn't have been taken in a 14 round draft.
It's always good to get the thoughts of a top flight NFL talent evaluator.
I think some of them would echo what i said. Obviously, its slight exaggeration anyway. I can guarantee the ones I was talking about would have gone undrafted if the skins didn't take them. So why not bring them in as free agents and draft higher rated players? It makes no sense.
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:00 pm
by Countertrey
So why not bring them in as free agents and draft higher rated players? It makes no sense.
Classic. So, you even have access to the Redskins draft board? How cool is that. So, who did they have rated higher?
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:09 pm
by brad7686
Countertrey wrote:So why not bring them in as free agents and draft higher rated players? It makes no sense.
Classic. So, you even have access to the Redskins draft board? How cool is that. So, who did they have rated higher?
Its not about who they had rated higher. Obviously, they had those goons rated pretty high. Its about the fact that no one else would have drafted certain players they did. So they can bring them in as free agents, and take players that actually should be drafted.
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:19 pm
by Kilmer72
brad7686 wrote:Countertrey wrote:Other than Orakpo, Barnes, and Mitchell, the other people drafted shouldn't have been taken in a 14 round draft.
It's always good to get the thoughts of a top flight NFL talent evaluator.
I think some of them would echo what i said. Obviously, its slight exaggeration anyway. I can guarantee the ones I was talking about would have gone undrafted if the skins didn't take them. So why not bring them in as free agents and draft higher rated players? It makes no sense.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=s ... &type=lgns
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:24 pm
by Kilmer72
Pretty simple, then: Need doesn't trump talent. Or in other words, by taking a player who isn't good enough to fill a need to do just that, you really aren't doing yourself much good.
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:36 pm
by brad7686
Kilmer72 wrote:Pretty simple, then: Need doesn't trump talent. Or in other words, by taking a player who isn't good enough to fill a need to do just that, you really aren't doing yourself much good.
What you don't understand is that the point of taking the best player available is to take good players.
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:49 pm
by Kilmer72
brad7686 wrote:Kilmer72 wrote:Pretty simple, then: Need doesn't trump talent. Or in other words, by taking a player who isn't good enough to fill a need to do just that, you really aren't doing yourself much good.
What you don't understand is that the point of taking the best player available is to take good players.
I'm not an expert Brad but I think it was slim pickings this draft. It wasn't a good one from what I read. Lots of teams took players that I bet they wish could have filled a different role. I do understand that you are saying the ones we picked aren't very good. I sympathize. The problem is if you have a basket full of rotten or half rotten apples do you take a chance and dig deeper and hope for the best? I think thats what happen.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:50 am
by brad7686
As hard as it is to knock people for 5th to 7th round picks, the redskins did pretty bad. The 5th rounder would have gone undrafted, and there were actually talented players at that point. Vinny can talk all he wants about the offensive line, there were tackles available in that round that were better than Stephon Heyer. I can definitely guarantee that. I usually am not that critical of the skins drafts other than the fact they have no picks, but this one was historically bad. The top of the draft was fine, but the later rounds were horrific at best. I like the WR pick, thats about it. Why bring in guys who aren't that talented AND have no set position? At least bring in guys that can compete for starting spots like horton did.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:01 am
by Kilmer72
brad7686 wrote:As hard as it is to knock people for 5th to 7th round picks, the redskins did pretty bad. The 5th rounder would have gone undrafted, and there were actually talented players at that point. Vinny can talk all he wants about the offensive line, there were tackles available in that round that were better than Stephon Heyer. I can definitely guarantee that. I usually am not that critical of the skins drafts other than the fact they have no picks, but this one was historically bad. The top of the draft was fine, but the later rounds were horrific at best. I like the WR pick, thats about it. Why bring in guys who aren't that talented AND have no set position? At least bring in guys that can compete for starting spots like horton did.
I know Brad, maybe this LB/RB might turn into a short yardage guy for us as a running back. We need one. Maybe the receiver will turn out to be our Horton this year. Anything can happen. Lets just wait and see. If these things happen then this was a great draft for us.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:46 am
by crazyhorse1
Countertrey wrote:Other than Orakpo, Barnes, and Mitchell, the other people drafted shouldn't have been taken in a 14 round draft.
It's always good to get the thoughts of a top flight NFL talent evaluator.
I don't know anything about these guys. Maybe they're all sleepers. but it seems sure to me that we will still have one of the worse offenses in the NFL this year. Only one of our OL is above the NFL average and two of them probably shouldn't be playing football. Maybe it's a two year plan so we'll have top draft picks next year. Big question: Can Portis survive another year of pounding. I expect a rash of 14 to 7 losses and Kelly on the disabled list early on. On paper, at least, the new batch, other than our No 1 seem to be at best candidates for special teams or early cuts.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:35 am
by Wahoo McDaniels
SkinsFreak wrote:Wahoo McDaniels wrote:I guess we plan on playing this season without a Right Tackle.
Yes, that's right. They're going to leave that spot open. On the right side, they'll go with a center, a guard, an open space, and then a TE split wide. Since Portis is such a good blocker, they figured he could just plug the hole. They'll also cut Jansen, ditch Williams, trade Heyer, cut the half dozen other OL depth players on the roster, not look at any undrafted rookies and ignore all other potential cuts or free agents from around the league.
It's called sarcasm.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:42 am
by Kilmer72
Wahoo McDaniels wrote:SkinsFreak wrote:Wahoo McDaniels wrote:I guess we plan on playing this season without a Right Tackle.
Yes, that's right. They're going to leave that spot open. On the right side, they'll go with a center, a guard, an open space, and then a TE split wide. Since Portis is such a good blocker, they figured he could just plug the hole. They'll also cut Jansen, ditch Williams, trade Heyer, cut the half dozen other OL depth players on the roster, not look at any undrafted rookies and ignore all other potential cuts or free agents from around the league.
It's called sarcasm.
Ha ha ha...It is funny Wahoo you got to admit... silly but funny.
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:57 am
by SkinsJock
SkinsFreak wrote:If you listen to Cerrato and Zorn's pressers from today, they drafted Eddie Williams as a fullback and said that's where they see him fitting in.
Cerrato said WR Marko Mitchell is 6'4 and ran a 4.36 in Indy. He is a developmental guy that has loads of talent and will compete for the 5th WR spot.
As far as the o-line goes, Vinny addresses that as well. He said this draft class was weak at o-line and when it came time to pick, there simply wasn't any good ones to be had. He also said that we have some depth and youngsters like Chad Rinehart and Devin Clark, guys who have already spent a year in the system and getting coached up by Buges, who will be expected to step up this year. And in reality, perhaps some of our young depth guys already on the roster were more appealing than a 7th round long term prospect.
Heyer was signed as an undrafted rookie and he's turned out to be a pleasant surprise. There will be undrafted players brought in and perhaps a player or two might get a shot.
I'm okay with that statement but I do hope that someone pays careful attention to the offensive linemen that were selected by other teams that become really good players over the next 3 years because that will then show (admittedly in retrospect) that Cerrato and whoever is advising him know very little about evaluating talent at a position of great need by this team.
I may be wrong but it seems to me that we had a fairly good defense last year and while I love the pick at #13 I am still very concerned about the offensive line and to not add anyone to that group is going to hurt this team rebuild that line to be as good as it needs to be.
I think we will have a very good defense but we are still going to need a lot of things to be significantly better on the offensive side of the ball for us to have a decent chance to compete and to not add to that group or to look to next year's draft is a bad move in my opinion.
New England seemed to not only trade for more picks in this draft (I think they picked up 12-13 players) they also added a #2 pick in next year's draft - now that is "managing" your team and that is why some of us are so down on the group we have.
I love my team but I am tired of us ending up looking so good during the off season and then being mediocre during the games that count
I'm all for giving people 3 years to evaluate a draft but what happens in 3 years from now when we are still hoping that the players who have not proven to be anything more than mediocre players (Dockery, Rinehart and Clark) are just not the players we hoped
We had a decent draft but in my opinion our ineffective offense from last year needed a lot more attention than these guys apparently think it did.
but, everything's good - "we'll be one of the top teams ....... soon. Give us a little more time!" - and we'll be able to say that each year with these guys running the team
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:00 am
by PulpExposure
brad7686 wrote:there were tackles available in that round that were better than Stephon Heyer. I can definitely guarantee that.
Who?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:06 am
by sch1977
Wahoo McDaniels wrote:I guess we plan on playing this season without a Right Tackle.
I still think we are planning to keep Jansen in there.