The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I hear alot of opinion on our OL and I've often criticized certain players. While I realize that stats only tell a small part of the story, I bet not many of you would have guessed that Kendall, who played through injury last season, gave up the least sacks. I also bet that most of you, who have been praising the signing of Dockery to replace Kendall, would not have guessed that Dockery gave up more sacks than any Redskin lineman.

Samuels - 12 games (12 starts) - 3 Sacks - 4 holding and 1 false start
Dockery - 16 games (16 starts) - 8.25 sacks - 2 holding and 2 false starts
Kendall - 16 games (16 starts) - 3 sacks - 1 holding and 1 false start
Rabach - 16 games (16 starts) - 5.5 sacks - 2 holding and 0 false starts
Thomas - 16 games (16 starts) - 4 sacks - 0 holding and 0 false starts
Jansen - 14 games (11 starts) - 6.5 sacks - 4 holding and 1 false start
Heyer - 9 games (7 starts) - 3 sacks - 2 holding, 1 false start

Thanks for the stat breakdown; I hope Jansen's 5% loss in body fat makes him a little faster off the line.

At first when I saw your break down, I thought it would be due to the fact that the bills played more 3-4 defenses than we do, which create more pressure up the middle with inside linbackers blitzing, but they only played 2 more 3-4 defenses than we did. That would not account for that much of a difference.

Another thing I considered was the presence Jason Peters, so maybe teams ran inside stunts against the bills....but Hey! we have our own top shelf tackle (while he lasts). Then I thought maybe since we did not have Samuels for 4 games, teams did not need to blitz inside, they just beat the guy filling in for him...but the fill ins did not give up a crazy number of sacks, and Jason Peters was out just one less game than Samuels.

While I could not find a reason to account for that stats other than the quality of play, I am not sure I buy we are better off with Kendall than Dock (not saying that was your point), but what it does tell me, is that especially since he has not drawn interest from other teams yet, and we can get him for a good price, Kendall has a spot on this team.

I don't think the concern is as much about Kendall's pass-blocking ability as it is his (in)ability to pull effectively. He has also been pretty clearly running on fumes in the past couple of seasons, which is why he sits out most of the week during the season.

So Dockery was the solution to these problems. He's presumably going to play here more than 2-3 seasons, and he's athletic in addition to being a solid cog in the machine.

I hadn't noticed that sack stat before, though.

In regards to the sack numbers.....HEY, WHAT'S UP DOC....???

fleetus wrote:I hear alot of opinion on our OL and I've often criticized certain players. While I realize that stats only tell a small part of the story, I bet not many of you would have guessed that Kendall, who played through injury last season, gave up the least sacks. I also bet that most of you, who have been praising the signing of Dockery to replace Kendall, would not have guessed that Dockery gave up more sacks than any Redskin lineman.

Samuels - 12 games (12 starts) - 3 Sacks - 4 holding and 1 false start
Dockery - 16 games (16 starts) - 8.25 sacks - 2 holding and 2 false starts
Kendall - 16 games (16 starts) - 3 sacks - 1 holding and 1 false start
Rabach - 16 games (16 starts) - 5.5 sacks - 2 holding and 0 false starts
Thomas - 16 games (16 starts) - 4 sacks - 0 holding and 0 false starts
Jansen - 14 games (11 starts) - 6.5 sacks - 4 holding and 1 false start
Heyer - 9 games (7 starts) - 3 sacks - 2 holding, 1 false start

Can i see a stat for the amount of TD's we got called back because of one or two of these guys... was it Rabach that cost us a TD or two with penalties, or was it a TD and a big play or something?? as for playing more 3-4 defenses, if Doc did face two more, that could equate to 2-3 sacks, which would put him in line with the rest of our guys...

i'm just hoping that Boldin doesn't sign with the iggles or gnats, because that is what i heard on ESPN as of yesterday...

fleetus wrote:I hear alot of opinion on our OL and I've often criticized certain players. While I realize that stats only tell a small part of the story, I bet not many of you would have guessed that Kendall, who played through injury last season, gave up the least sacks. I also bet that most of you, who have been praising the signing of Dockery to replace Kendall, would not have guessed that Dockery gave up more sacks than any Redskin lineman.

Samuels - 12 games (12 starts) - 3 Sacks - 4 holding and 1 false start
Dockery - 16 games (16 starts) - 8.25 sacks - 2 holding and 2 false starts
Kendall - 16 games (16 starts) - 3 sacks - 1 holding and 1 false start
Rabach - 16 games (16 starts) - 5.5 sacks - 2 holding and 0 false starts
Thomas - 16 games (16 starts) - 4 sacks - 0 holding and 0 false starts
Jansen - 14 games (11 starts) - 6.5 sacks - 4 holding and 1 false start
Heyer - 9 games (7 starts) - 3 sacks - 2 holding, 1 false start

Trent Edwards isn't exactly Randall Cunningham. They must have given a ton of Jansen and Heyer's sacks to ey or something, their numbers are way too low. Dockery will run block well, I am concerned about the sacks though. That's way too many for a guard.

brad7686 wrote:

fleetus wrote:I hear alot of opinion on our OL and I've often criticized certain players. While I realize that stats only tell a small part of the story, I bet not many of you would have guessed that Kendall, who played through injury last season, gave up the least sacks. I also bet that most of you, who have been praising the signing of Dockery to replace Kendall, would not have guessed that Dockery gave up more sacks than any Redskin lineman.

Samuels - 12 games (12 starts) - 3 Sacks - 4 holding and 1 false start
Dockery - 16 games (16 starts) - 8.25 sacks - 2 holding and 2 false starts
Kendall - 16 games (16 starts) - 3 sacks - 1 holding and 1 false start
Rabach - 16 games (16 starts) - 5.5 sacks - 2 holding and 0 false starts
Thomas - 16 games (16 starts) - 4 sacks - 0 holding and 0 false starts
Jansen - 14 games (11 starts) - 6.5 sacks - 4 holding and 1 false start
Heyer - 9 games (7 starts) - 3 sacks - 2 holding, 1 false start

Trent Edwards isn't exactly Randall Cunningham. They must have given a ton of Jansen and Heyer's sacks to ey or something, their numbers are way too low. Dockery will run block well, I am concerned about the sacks though. That's way too many for a guard.

ads up to 25 for our guys, with only person who saw time missing being fabini who started 2 games. J-Cam was sacked 38 times. Fabini probably had 2 count against him....that leaves 11 against TE's and RB's?
if ey is up against a Premier DE or OLB is that his fault, or J-cams for not seeing this match and tossing cooley the ball after he releases his defender?...and seriously, can you count a sack against a RB who takes on Defender who came clean off the edge...thats not fair....point being, looks like the stats can be very skewed.

fleetus, where did you get the stats...do they show them for TE and RB as well?

Redskins RT Jon Jansen reported to offseason conditioning at 18% body fat, down from the 23% he ended 2008 at, and vows to keep his starting job.
A leaner Jansen could be more effective in pass protection, where he struggled badly last year.

The Skins need a defensive end more than a tackle, even though they're hellbent on replacing Jansen. If Jansen keeps it up perhaps an end will be a more realistic pick at No. 13 overall.

The Washington Times Jon Jansen: "I'm going to be here this year, and you can put a Pro Bowl by my name."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/19/jansen-says-starting-job-is-his/


I like his fight and heart. May be we can get away with Jansen and Heyer for one more year and draft Orakpo.

1. You CANNOT use Dock's numbers from last year. The same way you cannot look at how D. Hall played in Oakland. Different team, chemistry, scheme, etc. It's a moot point until he plays this year, we can discuss him at this time next year.

2. I want to believe that Jansen can return to form. We can't plug every hole this year and I hope that he can give us another year or two.

The Washington Times Jon Jansen: "I'm going to be here this year, and you can put a Pro Bowl by my name."

I like the talk, hope to see the walk

dad23hogjrs wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

fleetus wrote:I hear alot of opinion on our OL and I've often criticized certain players. While I realize that stats only tell a small part of the story, I bet not many of you would have guessed that Kendall, who played through injury last season, gave up the least sacks. I also bet that most of you, who have been praising the signing of Dockery to replace Kendall, would not have guessed that Dockery gave up more sacks than any Redskin lineman.

Samuels - 12 games (12 starts) - 3 Sacks - 4 holding and 1 false start
Dockery - 16 games (16 starts) - 8.25 sacks - 2 holding and 2 false starts
Kendall - 16 games (16 starts) - 3 sacks - 1 holding and 1 false start
Rabach - 16 games (16 starts) - 5.5 sacks - 2 holding and 0 false starts
Thomas - 16 games (16 starts) - 4 sacks - 0 holding and 0 false starts
Jansen - 14 games (11 starts) - 6.5 sacks - 4 holding and 1 false start
Heyer - 9 games (7 starts) - 3 sacks - 2 holding, 1 false start

Trent Edwards isn't exactly Randall Cunningham. They must have given a ton of Jansen and Heyer's sacks to ey or something, their numbers are way too low. Dockery will run block well, I am concerned about the sacks though. That's way too many for a guard.

ads up to 25 for our guys, with only person who saw time missing being fabini who started 2 games. J-Cam was sacked 38 times. Fabini probably had 2 count against him....that leaves 11 against TE's and RB's?
if ey is up against a Premier DE or OLB is that his fault, or J-cams for not seeing this match and tossing cooley the ball after he releases his defender?...and seriously, can you count a sack against a RB who takes on Defender who came clean off the edge...thats not fair....point being, looks like the stats can be very skewed.

fleetus, where did you get the stats...do they show them for TE and RB as well?

Assigning blame for a sack is not always easy. Sometimes guys only get a 1/2 sack allowed because another player shared the assignment. I am not sure, but I think there may even be some sacks that don't get blamed on anyone because the QB ran right into a defensive player or was rolling outside the pocket or it just becomes too complicated to blame it on just one or two players.

fleetus wrote:

dad23hogjrs wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

fleetus wrote:I hear alot of opinion on our OL and I've often criticized certain players. While I realize that stats only tell a small part of the story, I bet not many of you would have guessed that Kendall, who played through injury last season, gave up the least sacks. I also bet that most of you, who have been praising the signing of Dockery to replace Kendall, would not have guessed that Dockery gave up more sacks than any Redskin lineman.

Samuels - 12 games (12 starts) - 3 Sacks - 4 holding and 1 false start
Dockery - 16 games (16 starts) - 8.25 sacks - 2 holding and 2 false starts
Kendall - 16 games (16 starts) - 3 sacks - 1 holding and 1 false start
Rabach - 16 games (16 starts) - 5.5 sacks - 2 holding and 0 false starts
Thomas - 16 games (16 starts) - 4 sacks - 0 holding and 0 false starts
Jansen - 14 games (11 starts) - 6.5 sacks - 4 holding and 1 false start
Heyer - 9 games (7 starts) - 3 sacks - 2 holding, 1 false start

Trent Edwards isn't exactly Randall Cunningham. They must have given a ton of Jansen and Heyer's sacks to ey or something, their numbers are way too low. Dockery will run block well, I am concerned about the sacks though. That's way too many for a guard.

ads up to 25 for our guys, with only person who saw time missing being fabini who started 2 games. J-Cam was sacked 38 times. Fabini probably had 2 count against him....that leaves 11 against TE's and RB's?
if ey is up against a Premier DE or OLB is that his fault, or J-cams for not seeing this match and tossing cooley the ball after he releases his defender?...and seriously, can you count a sack against a RB who takes on Defender who came clean off the edge...thats not fair....point being, looks like the stats can be very skewed.

fleetus, where did you get the stats...do they show them for TE and RB as well?

Assigning blame for a sack is not always easy. Sometimes guys only get a 1/2 sack allowed because another player shared the assignment. I am not sure, but I think there may even be some sacks that don't get blamed on anyone because the QB ran right into a defensive player or was rolling outside the pocket or it just becomes too complicated to blame it on just one or two players.

I'm not at all surprised at the negative Dock stat. I simply don't recall him ever being a top player with us and was appalled when he was given big money to leave town. I think he's younger than Pete and a better run blocker, but he'll only improve us marginally. If we don't do more for the OL we can expect to again be hot to replace JC by the end of the season. By the way, Haynesworth's not enough to give us a much better pass rush. On both line's we have as yet taken only half-way measures.
We don't really have more that one viable DE.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:1. You CANNOT use Dock's numbers from last year. The same way you cannot look at how D. Hall played in Oakland. Different team, chemistry, scheme, etc. It's a moot point until he plays this year, we can discuss him at this time next year.

2. I want to believe that Jansen can return to form. We can't plug every hole this year and I hope that he can give us another year or two.

make or break year for Jansen, or should I say make it or retire year, I think he will be fine this year, I hope.

crazyhorse1 wrote:

fleetus wrote:

dad23hogjrs wrote:

brad7686 wrote:

fleetus wrote:I hear alot of opinion on our OL and I've often criticized certain players. While I realize that stats only tell a small part of the story, I bet not many of you would have guessed that Kendall, who played through injury last season, gave up the least sacks. I also bet that most of you, who have been praising the signing of Dockery to replace Kendall, would not have guessed that Dockery gave up more sacks than any Redskin lineman.

Samuels - 12 games (12 starts) - 3 Sacks - 4 holding and 1 false start
Dockery - 16 games (16 starts) - 8.25 sacks - 2 holding and 2 false starts
Kendall - 16 games (16 starts) - 3 sacks - 1 holding and 1 false start
Rabach - 16 games (16 starts) - 5.5 sacks - 2 holding and 0 false starts
Thomas - 16 games (16 starts) - 4 sacks - 0 holding and 0 false starts
Jansen - 14 games (11 starts) - 6.5 sacks - 4 holding and 1 false start
Heyer - 9 games (7 starts) - 3 sacks - 2 holding, 1 false start

Trent Edwards isn't exactly Randall Cunningham. They must have given a ton of Jansen and Heyer's sacks to ey or something, their numbers are way too low. Dockery will run block well, I am concerned about the sacks though. That's way too many for a guard.

ads up to 25 for our guys, with only person who saw time missing being fabini who started 2 games. J-Cam was sacked 38 times. Fabini probably had 2 count against him....that leaves 11 against TE's and RB's?
if ey is up against a Premier DE or OLB is that his fault, or J-cams for not seeing this match and tossing cooley the ball after he releases his defender?...and seriously, can you count a sack against a RB who takes on Defender who came clean off the edge...thats not fair....point being, looks like the stats can be very skewed.

fleetus, where did you get the stats...do they show them for TE and RB as well?

Assigning blame for a sack is not always easy. Sometimes guys only get a 1/2 sack allowed because another player shared the assignment. I am not sure, but I think there may even be some sacks that don't get blamed on anyone because the QB ran right into a defensive player or was rolling outside the pocket or it just becomes too complicated to blame it on just one or two players.

I'm not at all surprised at the negative Dock stat. I simply don't recall him ever being a top player with us and was appalled when he was given big money to leave town. I think he's younger than Pete and a better run blocker, but he'll only improve us marginally. If we don't do more for the OL we can expect to again be hot to replace JC by the end of the season. By the way, Haynesworth's not enough to give us a much better pass rush. On both line's we have as yet taken only half-way measures.
We don't really have more that one viable DE.

I agree. I see Dock as another reclamation project like Smoot. Like Smoot, we probably overpaid a little for Dock's talent level, but in the end, it probably makes some sense for both sides and he may play better football in burgundy and gold than he did elsewhere.

I hope, if we draft a tackle at #13, that Danny and Vinny get Buges some one on one time with the player to get his approval first. They have a past history of making personnel decisions without much position coach input. For example, I wonder if Oher will project well as a RT in the NFC East. He looks like an LT project, who could become one of the top LT's in the game with the right coaching. But is his frame and strength good enough to drive block LE's?

fleetus wrote:I hear alot of opinion on our OL and I've often criticized certain players. While I realize that stats only tell a small part of the story, I bet not many of you would have guessed that Kendall, who played through injury last season, gave up the least sacks. I also bet that most of you, who have been praising the signing of Dockery to replace Kendall, would not have guessed that Dockery gave up more sacks than any Redskin lineman.

Samuels - 12 games (12 starts) - 3 Sacks - 4 holding and 1 false start
Dockery - 16 games (16 starts) - 8.25 sacks - 2 holding and 2 false starts
Kendall - 16 games (16 starts) - 3 sacks - 1 holding and 1 false start
Rabach - 16 games (16 starts) - 5.5 sacks - 2 holding and 0 false starts
Thomas - 16 games (16 starts) - 4 sacks - 0 holding and 0 false starts
Jansen - 14 games (11 starts) - 6.5 sacks - 4 holding and 1 false start
Heyer - 9 games (7 starts) - 3 sacks - 2 holding, 1 false start

Kendall benefited from playing next to Samuels, but not vice versa. Meanwhile, Dockery was not all that special his first time around, and also benefited greatly from playing next to Samuels. Dock is a far better run blocker than pass blocker. I was amazed that the Bills vastly overpaid for him two years ago, but that is what raised his price tag to come back. It's no wonder the Bills realized they had to cut their losses; he would have had to be the best guard in the game to actually earn that money. Still, it's nice to have a lineman back that we actually drafted. After this year's draft, we should be back to 3/5 of the line in that respect.

Edit: I also noticed Heyer and Jansen's starts total 18. What's up with that?

Deadskins wrote:Edit: I also noticed Heyer and Jansen's starts total 18. What's up with that?

Didn't Heyer replace Samuels when he was out?

spudstr04 wrote:

Redskins RT Jon Jansen reported to offseason conditioning at 18% body fat, down from the 23% he ended 2008 at, and vows to keep his starting job.
A leaner Jansen could be more effective in pass protection, where he struggled badly last year.

The Skins need a defensive end more than a tackle, even though they're hellbent on replacing Jansen. If Jansen keeps it up perhaps an end will be a more realistic pick at No. 13 overall.

The Washington Times Jon Jansen: "I'm going to be here this year, and you can put a Pro Bowl by my name."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/19/jansen-says-starting-job-is-his/


I like his fight and heart. May be we can get away with Jansen and Heyer for one more year and draft Orakpo.

Good article! It gives me hope JJ might actually be effective this season.

PulpExposure wrote:

Deadskins wrote:Edit: I also noticed Heyer and Jansen's starts total 18. What's up with that?

Didn't Heyer replace Samuels when he was out?

You're right. Who got those other two starts, then?

I said earlier that I think Jansen and Thomas will bounce back strong next year. I also love that Jansen believes he is going to the pro bowl next year, must mean he is working his tail off.

HEROHAMO wrote:I said earlier that I think Jansen and Thomas will bounce back strong next year. I also love that Jansen believes he is going to the pro bowl next year, must mean he is working his tail off.

It would be great if he could walk the walk, but I am very skeptical that it will happen. First, he has to stay healthy which has been an issue for him. Second, he has never made a pro bowl and it is kind of late in his career to have that hope now. I hope he proves my skepticism to be wrong and has a monster year. Maybe he is being fueled by all of the reports that our glaring weakness is the position he occupies. Can't blame the guy for being confident.

HEROHAMO wrote:I said earlier that I think Jansen and Thomas will bounce back strong next year. I also love that Jansen believes he is going to the pro bowl next year, must mean he is working his tail off.

A 5% drop in bodyfat would seem to validate this impression, HH. This would equate to a stronger Jansen, and that could only be a good thing.

It would be very cool if it turns out that he has at least one more year of top level play... None the less, I don't think we can afford to stand pat.

Cappster wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:I said earlier that I think Jansen and Thomas will bounce back strong next year. I also love that Jansen believes he is going to the pro bowl next year, must mean he is working his tail off.

It would be great if he could walk the walk, but I am very skeptical that it will happen. First, he has to stay healthy which has been an issue for him. Second, he has never made a pro bowl and it is kind of late in his career to have that hope now. I hope he proves my skepticism to be wrong and has a monster year. Maybe he is being fueled by all of the reports that our glaring weakness is the position he occupies. Can't blame the guy for being confident.

I agree.

Countertrey wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:I said earlier that I think Jansen and Thomas will bounce back strong next year. I also love that Jansen believes he is going to the pro bowl next year, must mean he is working his tail off.

A 5% drop in bodyfat would seem to validate this impression, HH. This would equate to a stronger Jansen, and that could only be a good thing.

It would be very cool if it turns out that he has at least one more year of top level play... None the less, I don't think we can afford to stand pat.

Agreed.

I have moved this here as it was not really about Carlos Rogers

PulpExposure wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:... Dockery's contract with the Redskins is in essence a 3 year, 13 million contract, with zero signing bonus up-front. 4 million a year is a totally reasonable contract for a starting guard in today's NFL FA world.

I'm sorry Pulp - I should have qualified this - I do not think that Dockery's contract is bad for a starting guard in the NFL I just do not think that Dockery is a starting guard in the NFL. I think he's good and he might prove himself again but, from last year's effort (I hesitate to call it 'effort') NOT the year before, he did not look like he was worth the money that we are now giving him. I think he's an excellent back-up and we need him but he's being paid starter money here and he needs to earn that before he gets it, not in hopes that he will work out to be good again.

I just wish the contract were structured to reward him IF he should play well this year

Interesting, and I disagree completely. I think he's a fine starter; not an all-star, but a decent starter. He started his rookie season, and has started every game since. I know I'm not alone in this. For example,

Scouts.com has him ranked a 72, which equals:

79-70: Good Starter
Solid starter who is close to being an outstanding player ... Has few weaknesses and will usually win his individual matchup but does not dominate in every game, especially when matched up against the top players in the league.

Comment: Dockery is one of the most consistent and durable players in the league. He has excellent size, strength and limited-area athleticism. He has great power and punch at the point of attack as a zone-run blocker, while having the strength and size to anchor versus interior bull rushers. He is at his best in a limited area. He does a good job of locking on and staying connected with proper hand use and leg drive. He isn't great on the second level or in space to hit his target. He will overextend at times and tends to lose his technique towards the end of the contest. Dockery is a competitive player, but may have some conditioning concerns that affect his play late in the game. He isn't nifty-footed to open turn and pull effectively. His lateral agility is limited and quick defenders are tough for him to contend with. He isn't great versus counter moves inside and needs to engage defenders early in the play to be successful. Dockery has continued to improve his overall play as an offensive guard and with more consistency he could become a premiere lineman.

And from friends who are Bills fans, Dockery played fine last year. He just didn't play up to his contract ... which was an insane contract anyways.

I hope for our sakes that returning to play with these guys and for Bugel has the desired result - again, I just did not see or hear many great things about his play and I feel that he basically took the money and did not seem to want to play his guts out to earn it.

I guess that I don't care if the contract was too big - he signed it and he should have made more of an effort to live up to it .... I really do not understand how having a huge contract can possibly affect how he played

Our line needs a lot of help and we need the depth that Dockery provides - I am just not sure they needed to pay him that much, as I did not think he was going to be exactly a desired commodity after his performance in Buffalo - I will be very happy for the team and Dockery if he is as good as you think he is - I have my doubts