The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

The Redskins are basically done? What kind of fair weather far or sunshine soldier would make a statement like this?

Redskins Tight End Chris ey:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... ne/?page=2

He's right though, I thought we had a real outside chance at 10 wins there with those last 3 games, but we blew it. I predict a 7-9 season. It's not so bad if you think about it. We'll get a mid round draft pick (of course, our #2 pick is completely wasted on Jason Taylor.)

If we let Zorn and his staff stay in place we may see some improvement in his system next season, since receivers generally have a steeper learning curve maybe they'll all (Thomas, Kelly and Davis) step up at the same time as some of the new draft picks.

Personally I think we have a shot at Laurinaitis (with Fletcher getting older, it may be a smart pick) but if not him, there's a variety of offensive and defensive linemen. An earlier pick can sometimes handcuff you, but a mid round pick lets you take a position of need. Maybe next season will be brighter.

You on both sides of the fence?

With the 14 game performance, do you see some glimmer of hope? Even I don't see the skins pulling off a win vs Philly. McNabb looked sharp out there last nite. There were some passes he made in excellent coverage.

They're mathematically in the hunt, but I think that's about all it is. With the offense who can't score 14 pts vs the BENGALS, I'm of the mindset to play the young guys. Get 'em some experience, and go in with the best draft pick available. What good is 'finishing strong' if it still falls short of the playoffs?

skin55, 7-9 season isn't bad, sure, but if you factor in 6-2 start, 7-9 is HORRIBLE! I don't think ZOrn is the problem I think it may be mindset of the players. Emotion for one, we ring in ST21 and we go out flat, when was the last time we saw them play inspired at home. The defense played their hearts out but seeing the O do nothing can eat away at you and eventually it's like a contagious disease that spreads to everyone.

Granted, things are pretty bleak. The offensive line is getting older but according to scouts inc. before the season this is how they ranked:

31 yo Chris Samuels 81 (outstanding player) 4th best tackle in the league.

31 yo Casey Rabach 70 (good starter) 11th best center in the league.

35 yo Pete Kendall 69 (average starter) 19th best guard in the league.

32 yo Randy Thomas 75 (good starter) 10th best guard in the league.

32 yo Jon Jansen 20 (not enough scouting info due to injury)

That's a decent offensive line, and with some minor tweaking (say replacing one or two starters) we could get younger and keep that core together.

We also have some youth in the skill positions. Clinton Portis (27) and Chris ey (26) are our best offensive weapons. We also have Fred Davis (22), Devin Thomas (22) and Malcolm Kelly (21) who are improving and learning the offense. It's usually a steep curve for receivers. Marvin Harrison was always an red zone weapon, but he didn't start posting big numbers until his 4th season. Chad Johnson had a slow first season as did T.O., Steve Smith and *gasp* Santana Moss (who's almost 30 and about to post one of his better seasons.)

On defense we have two young tackles in Golston (25) and Montgomery (24) who look like future starters. Washington and Fletcher are getting older but McIntosh (26) seems like a star in the making.

In the secondary Carlos Rogers (27) lacks good hands, but he has every other attribute and elite corner needs. DeAngelo Hall (25) is an amazing football player and IMO a legit star in the league. Re-signing him should be a top offseason priority.

LaRon Landry (24) is the real deal and he will become a superstar FS. Chris Horton (23) actually fell quite a bit in the draft and landed in our laps. He had some surgery on his wrist that scared away a few teams but it's our gain. He looks like a real solid player and ball hawk but may be best suited to platoon with another player. Valuable guy to have around nevertheless.

I mean, the Redskins clearly need some work, but their success clearly rests with Jason Campbell (26). Here's his scouting report:

Grade: 74 (Good starter)

Comment: He is a good overall athlete with good size and a strong arm. He has quick feet in his pass drops and set up. He adjusts quickly when he sees pressure, but doesn't have a great feel for the rush yet when his eyes are down field. He will get his eyes locked on receivers at times and be late to escape or avoid. He can buy time with his feet and he is a good athlete, once he is outside the box, to make plays with his legs. He needs to improve his overall vision and pocket adjustments. He will only get better with more experience. He has a little bit of a wind up release, but the ball comes off his hand quickly once he makes his decision. He showed good touch on underneath throws and a strong enough arm to deliver accurately on deeper throws. He has good touch on vertical routes and toward the sideline. He has enough arm strength to put good velocity on the ball and drive it into tight spots. He has shown improved timing with his three and five-step drops since becoming the starter. While he will pre-determine where he is going, he is accurate enough to get the ball into his receivers' hands. He has a good combination of size, athletic ability and arm strength. However, he needs to improve his ball security and overall feel for pressure. He is a solid, young player to build around. He will only get better with experience.

While we'd all like to see him be more of a dynamic leader who can make things happen, look at his numbers this season. Among starters with 400 attempts this season, only Jason Campbell and Chad Pennington have fewer INTs. All that while being one of the most sacked men in the league. Jason Campbell is learning a new system every season and next year he'll have a real shot to build on this years successes. If this team stops trading high draft picks for bums (Jason Taylor... man I miss #93) we can build a real future. (I'm still mad about that pick. A mid 2nd round pick is going to be worth a really nice player. I hope the Dolphins choke on it.)

Skinsfan55 wrote:Granted, things are pretty bleak. The offensive line is getting older but according to scouts inc. before the season this is how they ranked:

31 yo Chris Samuels 81 (outstanding player) 4th best tackle in the league.

31 yo Casey Rabach 70 (good starter) 11th best center in the league.

35 yo Pete Kendall 69 (average starter) 19th best guard in the league.

32 yo Randy Thomas 75 (good starter) 10th best guard in the league.

32 yo Jon Jansen 20 (not enough scouting info due to injury)

That's a decent offensive line, and with some minor tweaking (say replacing one or two starters) we could get younger and keep that core together.

That's how they looked at the BEGINNING of the season, but man, did they age quickly this year! Seems like they just collapsed as a group.

Just curious. Would you be happier to see the Skins win their last two and finish 9-7 or drop them both and have a better spot in the draft?

I wouldn't mind knocking off the Eagles again, but it kind of feels like "so what?" if we beat the 49ers.

Man that Bengals loss really really sucked.

yah Riggo, the bengals loss sucked but the cowboy loss was the backbreaker. I think we need to put the best effort to win these last 2, we need to solidify these doubts we have, make the change and be done with it.

THis new change this year didn't take. Worse yet, it's spreading to the defense. Maybe it needs to marinate a bit more, or maybe we need to switch out pieces, whatever it is we need this resolved this year.


I have never seen a B&G team play like these guys even after trying to get them hyped up. Frankly what's upsetting is that I'm starting to get used to it, expecting them to be inept and fold in the end.

We are not done with this season yet - there are 2 more games to be played I want to win both games because the next game is all that matters.

We win out and are 9-7 - IF Dallass loses their last 2 (which is not impossible) we finish in 2nd place in the NFC East - we could even get in the playoffs

I understand how good and how bad we are but this ain't over yet

I'm sorry, but the DTs we currently have are NOT anything more than rotational guys. They do NOT get pressure/collapse the pocket. Since Griffin has been out with injury (as he has been in recent years), our run defense has suffered. We need TWO good starting DTs or one great DT. I would be satisfied if we got someone like Haynesworth or that NT from the Browns...

Skinsfan55 wrote:The Redskins are basically done? What kind of fair weather far or sunshine soldier would make a statement like this?

Redskins Tight End Chris ey:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... ne/?page=2

He's right though, I thought we had a real outside chance at 10 wins there with those last 3 games, but we blew it. I predict a 7-9 season. It's not so bad if you think about it. We'll get a mid round draft pick (of course, our #2 pick is completely wasted on Jason Taylor.)

If we let Zorn and his staff stay in place we may see some improvement in his system next season, since receivers generally have a steeper learning curve maybe they'll all (Thomas, Kelly and Davis) step up at the same time as some of the new draft picks.

Personally I think we have a shot at Laurinaitis (with Fletcher getting older, it may be a smart pick) but if not him, there's a variety of offensive and defensive linemen. An earlier pick can sometimes handcuff you, but a mid round pick lets you take a position of need. Maybe next season will be brighter.

i honestly would rather loose out at this point.....

serious, after all a win this week or next would drop us several picks down, and without a 2nd a trade the higher the better...cause we might need to trade out....

if we draft middle of the 1st, im praying we take taylor mays out of USC....i know safety is a strong point for us now with horton, but we need a FS a natural FS.

2 years ago we had to put ST21 at ss cause arch was terrible, and ST21 was our best player and we had to move him out of position, just like LL30 is now, he is not a FS he is a SS!! put a 6-3 235lbs 4.3 fourty yard dash back in the FS position and that will put LL30 right back up to the LOS where he belongs..

btw dont those stats sound familar?

if he is not there, trade out and than get as many picks as we can, after all alot of mid round picks of became descent OL...

NJ-SKINS-FAN wrote:i honestly would rather loose out at this point.....

serious, after all a win this week or next would drop us several picks down, and without a 2nd a trade the higher the better...cause we might need to trade out....

if we draft middle of the 1st, im praying we take taylor mays out of USC....i know safety is a strong point for us now with horton, but we need a FS a natural FS.

2 years ago we had to put ST21 at ss cause arch was terrible, and ST21 was our best player and we had to move him out of position, just like LL30 is now, he is not a FS he is a SS!! put a 6-3 235lbs 4.3 fourty yard dash back in the FS position and that will put LL30 right back up to the LOS where he belongs..

btw dont those stats sound familar?

if he is not there, trade out and than get as many picks as we can, after all alot of mid round picks of became descent OL...

To draft a safety in the 1st round when we don't have a 2nd and all of the glaring needs is beyond ludicrous. We're a lotdeeper at safety than a lot of other positions. We don't need any more safeties.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

NJ-SKINS-FAN wrote:i honestly would rather loose out at this point.....

serious, after all a win this week or next would drop us several picks down, and without a 2nd a trade the higher the better...cause we might need to trade out....

if we draft middle of the 1st, im praying we take taylor mays out of USC....i know safety is a strong point for us now with horton, but we need a FS a natural FS.

2 years ago we had to put ST21 at ss cause arch was terrible, and ST21 was our best player and we had to move him out of position, just like LL30 is now, he is not a FS he is a SS!! put a 6-3 235lbs 4.3 fourty yard dash back in the FS position and that will put LL30 right back up to the LOS where he belongs..

btw dont those stats sound familar?

if he is not there, trade out and than get as many picks as we can, after all alot of mid round picks of became descent OL...

To draft a dafety in the 1st round when we don't have a 2nd and all of the glaring needs is beyond ludicrous. We're a lotdeeper at safety than a lot of other positions. We don't need any more safeties.

so you are happy with our best player playing out of position and 25 yards away from the play? (but he was closer to the LOS last week...maybe they changed that)

NJ-SKINS-FAN wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

NJ-SKINS-FAN wrote:i honestly would rather loose out at this point.....

serious, after all a win this week or next would drop us several picks down, and without a 2nd a trade the higher the better...cause we might need to trade out....

if we draft middle of the 1st, im praying we take taylor mays out of USC....i know safety is a strong point for us now with horton, but we need a FS a natural FS.

2 years ago we had to put ST21 at ss cause arch was terrible, and ST21 was our best player and we had to move him out of position, just like LL30 is now, he is not a FS he is a SS!! put a 6-3 235lbs 4.3 fourty yard dash back in the FS position and that will put LL30 right back up to the LOS where he belongs..

btw dont those stats sound familar?

if he is not there, trade out and than get as many picks as we can, after all alot of mid round picks of became descent OL...

To draft a dafety in the 1st round when we don't have a 2nd and all of the glaring needs is beyond ludicrous. We're a lotdeeper at safety than a lot of other positions. We don't need any more safeties.

so you are happy with our best player playing out of position and 25 yards away from the play? (but he was closer to the LOS last week...maybe they changed that)

Yes, I actually am. I can only speculate how he affected opposing offenses game plans with someone with his speed and ballhawking abilities back there, but I think it's safe to say he prevented a lot of downfield passing.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

NJ-SKINS-FAN wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

NJ-SKINS-FAN wrote:i honestly would rather loose out at this point.....

serious, after all a win this week or next would drop us several picks down, and without a 2nd a trade the higher the better...cause we might need to trade out....

if we draft middle of the 1st, im praying we take taylor mays out of USC....i know safety is a strong point for us now with horton, but we need a FS a natural FS.

2 years ago we had to put ST21 at ss cause arch was terrible, and ST21 was our best player and we had to move him out of position, just like LL30 is now, he is not a FS he is a SS!! put a 6-3 235lbs 4.3 fourty yard dash back in the FS position and that will put LL30 right back up to the LOS where he belongs..

btw dont those stats sound familar?

if he is not there, trade out and than get as many picks as we can, after all alot of mid round picks of became descent OL...

To draft a dafety in the 1st round when we don't have a 2nd and all of the glaring needs is beyond ludicrous. We're a lotdeeper at safety than a lot of other positions. We don't need any more safeties.

so you are happy with our best player playing out of position and 25 yards away from the play? (but he was closer to the LOS last week...maybe they changed that)

Yes, I actually am. I can only speculate how he affected opposing offenses game plans with someone with his speed and ballhawking abilities back there, but I think it's safe to say he prevented a lot of downfield passing.

ok, your right....but do you think he is better around the LOS than in the middle of the field? EX. like when he was at LSU and the 10 weeks he was playing SS last year

NJ-SKINS-FAN wrote:ok, your right....but do you think he is better around the LOS than in the middle of the field? EX. like when he was at LSU and the 10 weeks he was playing SS last year

We've had this conversation before. It really took a few years for Taylor to become a great FS. Landry has all the makings of a great FS, but he also could become a great SS. However, it's absolutely ridiculous to draft another safety in the first round.

What would you do with Horton, then? Have him play dime safety? In addition to not drafting for positions where we have much greater need, it's an absolute waste of the talent we do have.

PulpExposure wrote:

NJ-SKINS-FAN wrote:ok, your right....but do you think he is better around the LOS than in the middle of the field? EX. like when he was at LSU and the 10 weeks he was playing SS last year

We've had this conversation before. It really took a few years for Taylor to become a great FS. Landry has all the makings of a great FS, but he also could become a great SS. However, it's absolutely ridiculous to draft another safety in the first round.

What would you do with Horton, then? Have him play dime safety? In addition to not drafting for positions where we have much greater need, it's an absolute waste of the talent we do have.

Let's keep the comparison apples to apples. What he did in college is NOT on the same level as the Pros.

...and I agree with everything Pulp said.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:

NJ-SKINS-FAN wrote:ok, your right....but do you think he is better around the LOS than in the middle of the field? EX. like when he was at LSU and the 10 weeks he was playing SS last year

We've had this conversation before. It really took a few years for Taylor to become a great FS. Landry has all the makings of a great FS, but he also could become a great SS. However, it's absolutely ridiculous to draft another safety in the first round.

What would you do with Horton, then? Have him play dime safety? In addition to not drafting for positions where we have much greater need, it's an absolute waste of the talent we do have.

Let's keep the comparison apples to apples. What he did in college is NOT on the same level as the Pros.

...and I agree with everything Pulp said.

you are right it is not the same as in college, it is a different level, so is it safe to say that playing the a new position at a higher level is going to stunt his growth?? all im saying is he is our best defender and we have him out of position....and i feel in order to get our d better, faster is to put him in the right place where he belongs.

believe me i know this team needs Oline and D line, but what i should have said at the top of this page, is that if the top Oline man is not there and we cant trade down to recoup the 2nd and afew more picks to get the depth for the oline is to take taylor mays if he is there....

look to get gross and hanyesworth in f/a and take taylor will make us all happy.....this is even if taylor declares for the draft

but over all, lets just agree to disagree.....

OL should be the first pick of the draft next year. With Haynesworth meeting his incentives that make him a F/A, do we test it given our history with FA DL????

Skinsfan55 wrote:The Redskins are basically done? What kind of fair weather far or sunshine soldier would make a statement like this?

Redskins Tight End Chris ey:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... ne/?page=2

He's right though, I thought we had a real outside chance at 10 wins there with those last 3 games, but we blew it. I predict a 7-9 season. It's not so bad if you think about it. We'll get a mid round draft pick (of course, our #2 pick is completely wasted on Jason Taylor.)

If we let Zorn and his staff stay in place we may see some improvement in his system next season, since receivers generally have a steeper learning curve maybe they'll all (Thomas, Kelly and Davis) step up at the same time as some of the new draft picks.

Personally I think we have a shot at Laurinaitis (with Fletcher getting older, it may be a smart pick) but if not him, there's a variety of offensive and defensive linemen. An earlier pick can sometimes handcuff you, but a mid round pick lets you take a position of need. Maybe next season will be brighter.

You know, I said this numerous times on this forum back when we got Jason Taylor and I'll say it again now. JT is a lightweight, hybrid DL/LB who is a great talent ONLY if used properly. You can't line him up a LDE, where a real LDE (#93) has played, and expect him to stop the run or consistently terrorize the QB. You need to move him around, line him up at OLB one play, opposite OLB next play, RDE and LDE on other plays. When he gets inside the heads of the QB and offensive line it opens it up for the whole defense and then JT shines. He zone blitzes and drops into coverage the next play. He stunts inside, then comes off the edge next time. Why isn't it obvious that Nick Saban tapped into JT's strengths? Why would a coaching staff be so rigid to line up a 245# guy whose strengths are his versatility and make him play man-up with a 320# RT every play??? This is one of the main things that needs to be changed next year.

Next, we need to give Thomas and Kelly every opportunity to win a starting WR job. #89 and 82 will never get it done as a tandem and they may be too pricey to cut or trade.

We need to develop Rhinehart and Heyer further, then draft another 3rd or 4th round OL for depth.

Maybe if we have a top 20 pick, we'll get lucky and have a chance at a decent DE. Not some hybrid JT clone which are always lurking around the 1st round, but a true big framed DE (6'2"+ and 275# +) who knows how to play 4-3 scheme.

Our OLB are good, but we have no depth there either.

Smoot is average at best and Springs is injury prone, so we may need to consider keeping D. Hall to play ooposite Carlos (who finally stepped up this year). I've argued with people on this forum for three years that Carlos would develop and I think he finally is.

Smoot is average at best and Springs is injury prone, so we may need to consider keeping D. Hall to play ooposite Carlos (who finally stepped up this year). I've argued with people on this forum for three years that Carlos would develop and I think he finally is.

Consider? This is our first order of business. This man is a gem and a steal that we got him for ~$500k for 1/2 a year. If we DON'T keep him you'll see one irate skins fan.

VetSkinsFan wrote:Consider? This is our first order of business. This man is a gem and a steal that we got him for ~$500k for 1/2 a year. If we DON'T keep him you'll see one irate skins fan.

This is one thing you won't have to worry about.

Now if we don't get Hayensworth, I'll be irate.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:Consider? This is our first order of business. This man is a gem and a steal that we got him for ~$500k for 1/2 a year. If we DON'T keep him you'll see one irate skins fan.

This is one thing you won't have to worry about.

Now if we don't get Hayensworth, I'll be irate.

I'm on board with the Haynesworth idea. I don't know about irate over him, but I think he can be the key to our defensive struggles.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:Consider? This is our first order of business. This man is a gem and a steal that we got him for ~$500k for 1/2 a year. If we DON'T keep him you'll see one irate skins fan.

This is one thing you won't have to worry about.

Now if we don't get Hayensworth, I'll be irate.

I'm on board with the Haynesworth idea. I don't know about irate over him, but I think he can be the key to our defensive struggles.

What he could potentially bring will put our defense into the elite category. He'd allow us get a bit more out of Griffin who has at least 1-2 more years left. We can at that point begin to look for a monster DT in the draft to pair with Haynesworth. That rush up the middle will make out ENTIRE secondary look better.

More picks for Hall.
More tipped passes for LB's and Horton.
Easier picks for Carlos.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:Consider? This is our first order of business. This man is a gem and a steal that we got him for ~$500k for 1/2 a year. If we DON'T keep him you'll see one irate skins fan.

This is one thing you won't have to worry about.

Now if we don't get Hayensworth, I'll be irate.

Seriously? I'd like to get Haynesworth, but I see some seriously significant drawbacks to him.

(1) he is due monster money offers from all sorts of teams; and
(2) haynesworth is always injured. Of his 7 NFL seasons, he's only lasted 16 games one year (his rookie year); Since that rookie year, he's played in 74 of 96 possible games (77% of games). As a comparison, it seems like Griffin is always injured and missing games...yet Haynesworth misses more games due to injury than Griffin has with the Skins (he's played in 69 of 78 games as a Redskin...88% of games).

And as Haynesworth gets older, it's not like he'll get more healthy...

It's a sketchy move to invest huge money into him, when you know he's virtually a part-time player.