The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I am just writing to say, I am so tired of the Redskins and even MORE SO of our fans. The Redskins have a bad team, BUT I have not lost faith in Zorn. I like a lot of the things he has done for this team. People need to take a step back and realize this is 2008 and not 1988. This ISN'T the Joe Gibbs era. This is 21st century football. There are teams that are 0-13 right now *cough*LIONS*cough*. Dear God, could you imagine our team going 0-13??? Our fans would be asking to fold the friggin franchise! I'm just as tired as y'all for having a losing a$$ franchise, but this is what sports is all about!!! I'm sick of watching the Skins lose then coming on this site and seeing STUPID ideas tossed around (fire Jim Zorn anyone?) like it's the end of the world. One day, football fans around the country will unite to realize that losing a game, a season, even a Super Bowl after going 18-0, in the end, its all just a game, and no matter what you say about the team, nothings gonnna change. We all want our time in the lime light. I would love to be one of the Patriots, Steelers, Giants, or even (who woulda guessed) the Titans of the NFL, but you know what makes me a die hard Redskins fan? The fact that I will go to a game, scream myself hoarse, stick with my team through thick and thin, and believe that this team will restore itself to the champions they once were. Our coaches and owner may make stupid decisions, but its about time, we as the fans, might look at ourselves as the problem. We all prance around this site like we know what the eff we are talking about, but in reality, 90% of us would not have had the nuts to give Jim freakin Zorn the reigns to a playoff caliber team, and that same 90% were praising Zorn after the first half of the season. Thats where my closing point comes. Maybe one day, when our fans show the logic and change of heart that our FO has had, we will go back to those historic (before my time) days. Until then, lets all stop b!tchin about the O line and D line and this, that, and the other, and start realizing what kind of fan we really are.

I have yet to read anyone with any criticism of VINNY CERRATO. The man arranges the team like a fantasy football roster. Everyone calls for the rookie WR's heads when their routes consist of six steps from the line before Cambell is under severe pressure. The Oline and Dline have been allowed to deteriorate to this point and now the cracks are turning to potholes. Here's my list for replacements.

Randel El- sometimes he seems like a bright spot but it really feels to me that he is taking playing time away from someone who could ease up the pressure on Moss/Cooley.

Randy Thomas- Did you see him get Pancaked? It was the ugliest thing I've ever seen, I don't know if any Olinemen has fallen so far from his strengths or the way he played the year prior(Jansen is terrible normaly)

Jansen - no team should ever have to line up with a Tackle who clearly cannot pass protect. If Heyer can get stronger in the offseason we may have a solution to RT.

Betts - it's a shame we couldn't get any value for him after he ran for 1000 yds, he's no changeup like Mclain

Kendall - plays awfully well for his age, but we've seen what not addressing the future can do to eveyone's position. Here's hoping for Rinehart's success

Rabach - How much did we pay this guy? the best centers in the draft usually go between the 2nd and 3rd rounds, that should be a sure target this offseason

Washington/Blades - am I the only one that doesn't feel like Blades is a long term solution? How much of the cap is going to Washingon?

DT - they all seem adequate, but adequate never collapses the pocket

Special thanks to SSprings, thanks-for nothing. nothing like playing for your next team's contract

Zorn- a good move, but nobody can work these kinds of miracles. I hope he is here next year...Cerrato should be on the radio show today but he announced last week that he's going to miss it. hmmm

This is what you get when you have fans that have tasted victory, under Gibbs. When was the last time Detroit won a Super Bowl? The really bad teams in this league don't have three Super Bowl trophies sitting in their case.

I'm not saying that our fans are right in what they do sometimes but you have to realize that it is a level of frustration happening with a team whose talent is slowly drifting away year after year.

I personally feel right now that it takes time to build a winning franchise. The problem here is that you have a team with talent that needs a seasoned coach that could win now because these guys are getting older and personally don't think they have the patience to wait or deal with Zorn and his new system. It's evident right now. Do you think that this team with Gibbs at the helm at 6-2 would have tanked like they have? Probably not.

I say to give this guy a chance to built stability and a solid program, blew this team up and start fresh. If you have veteran guys like we have that can't get up enough for this coach to put on a better effort, then blew it up.

roybus14 wrote:This is what you get when you have fans that have tasted victory, under Gibbs. When was the last time Detroit won a Super Bowl? The really bad teams in this league don't have three Super Bowl trophies sitting in their case.

I'm not saying that our fans are right in what they do sometimes but you have to realize that it is a level of frustration happening with a team whose talent is slowly drifting away year after year.

I personally feel right now that it takes time to build a winning franchise. The problem here is that you have a team with talent that needs a seasoned coach that could win now because these guys are getting older and personally don't think they have the patience to wait or deal with Zorn and his new system. It's evident right now. Do you think that this team with Gibbs at the helm at 6-2 would have tanked like they have? Probably not.

I say to give this guy a chance to built stability and a solid program, blew this team up and start fresh. If you have veteran guys like we have that can't get up enough for this coach to put on a better effort, then blew it up.

With a full off season to prepare with, I think this FA/trade/draft will be much more comprehensive for JZ. I'm hoping this is the dark before the light. Only time will tell if I'm just being naive.

I always rant and rave about the Redskins not drafting well or whatever, but if they screw it up this yr, the Skins are in real trouble. I sat down and watched Alex Mack (C from Cal) on Saturday, this guy in unbelievable. If you sign Gross as your RT in FA and draft mack in the 1st (he is projected at pick 20-25), then put Rhineheart at LG you might be okay. Im not saying that these guys will absolutely pan out, but at least we will have some youth and talent on the line.

For everyone bashing Campbell, IF YOU CANT STAND IN THE POCKET, YOU CANT MAKE YOUR READS. Dan freakin Marino could not be successful behind our O Line, there is simply no time to go through your reads. People get open eventually, but JC does not have the time to let the plays develop.

If you want to win, you rebuild the OLine and DLine. Forget about "Core Redskins" and realize its a buisness, if they are not getting it done get rid of them. Haynesworth should be brought in (even though he is going to be expensive) and Montgomery should be resigned. After that I cut Griffin and Taylor and dot resign Gholston.

Simple things can be done to make this team successful quickly (NYG) and it starts in the trenches. Cerrato needs to get this done or needs to get outta dodge

All these things yet no one really took a look at the salary cap ramifications that this would bring.

I don't have the figures but I'm sure some of you can find out that the O-line isn't going anywhere until they retire. They make too much money and have way too much of it guaranteed.

Why would Cerrato get criticism? He's only been general manager for a year. Who was he supposed to get in the draft for the offensive line? All the good tackles and such were taken before we even picked. You'd take a guard or a center in the first round?

it's true we had an opportunity to take Quentin Groves but he's a little undersized to play opposite Andre Carter as is seen with the problems we're having with Jason Taylor. Groves was also flagged with character and durability concerns by scouts inc. For what it's worth he's far back on the Jags depth chart and has played only sparingly this season.

Yeah, we'd all love it if players would just drop into our laps during the draft, but IMO Vinny got the best players he could who will benefit our team in the long run. Receivers take a little while to develop and I for one was glad to see the Redskins look to the future for a change.

Well, we have two young tackles and a backup center. We have some guys to evaluate and hopelly they'll pan out. We need to get the next generation of our line in the works. It'll take about 2 years.

here's an excerpt from sportingnews who feels the redskins have fallen into a black hole(on offense anyway)

Redskins' Offense. Through their first eight games, the Skins averaged 20.6 points per game. In their last five, that number’s been cut in half, down to 10.6. Not coincidentally, Washington was 6-2 in those opening eight, and is 1-4 since. There are several places where Skins fans could look to lay blame for this midseason implosion -- Jason Campbell’s struggles, Jim Zorn’s passing offense, Clinton Portis’ injuries, etc. -- but the real problem is obvious: The offensive line is awful. It’s an old, overmatched group that has been completely man-handled against above average defenses, such as Pittsburgh, New York and, last night, Baltimore.

If you want to play the blame game (and as a Skins fan, I do) look no further than VP Vinny Cerrato, who continues to destroy this team one failed draft day at a time. This year, with glaring needs on both sides of the line, Vinny went with two wideouts and a receiving tight end with the team’s first three picks. Washington will never return to glory so long as Cerrato is in charge of personnel decisions.

To be fair about the line, NO ONE saw the offensive line imploding like this. The line wasn't great last year, but that was because we had our starting RG, and our starting AND second string RT out. With Thomas and Jansen back, our line seemed okay to hold together for another year. And the Redskins DID draft a guard in the 3rd round.

Our most pressing needs were d-line and WR...but as I've posted before, there weren't any d-linemen in the 2nd round that have done squat so far.

I think Heyer is a good start but Rinehart seems too inexperienced to play the outside. That isn't such a problem considering our guards have fallen off but I really, really feel that it is time for the new breed of offensive line, with 6-8 340 tackles and 6-3 330 guards. Even if they're completely untested the bigger guys in the trenches will hold their own more often than not and the size and wingspans can cover up what they lack. At the very least the edge rushers will have to run farther around to get to Campell. This is the very reason I hate matchups with Philly. They spend primo draft picks on the trenches EVERY year, not just one in 9. McNabb, Romo and countless others have up to five whole seconds to do the following-

Drop back

Assess the reciever's in their breaks

choose one, get the feeling that there isn't risk and finally

plant and throw

Campell is scrambling when he should be watching the recievers. He has to feel which godawful way the pocket is collapsing and move WHILE assesing the recievers. He's trying to think about two frantic things in the same 1.4 seconds and trying to get the pass off within that time frame as well. I can't remember the last time he took a snap and waited 8 seconds because no one got open. It just doesn't happen.

PulpExposure wrote:To be fair about the line, NO ONE saw the offensive line imploding like this. The line wasn't great last year, but that was because we had our starting RG, and our starting AND second string RT out. With Thomas and Jansen back, our line seemed okay to hold together for another year. And the Redskins DID draft a guard in the 3rd round.

You're mostly right, but still, just the fact that they're all 30+ should've suggested they were all in decline. I'll have to admit, though, that I, along with the front office apparently, thought they'd hold up for one more year. Guess not.

As for their replacements, anyone know if there will be any stud O-linemen in free agency? And don't we still have Kerry Brown stashed away on IR? Wasn't he the one who won that "Best D2 O-lineman" award in college? He might just be a find. Whatever happens, the whole O-line is now officially overdue for an overhaul.

Absolutely I blame Cerrato. He has the official name now, but he has been at this with the skins for a while now. I would absolutely take a guard or center in the 1st round if we solitify some other needs in free agency. I would be ecstatic with Mack (C) OR Duke Robinson (G) and there are others too. They are just the 2 that pop out. Obviously its not that crazy either, bc RObinson I have seen go as high as 6 and Mack is 20-25 on mocks.
Groves is undersized yes, but Campbell was not undersized and was there for the taking (i know he has not panned out wither, just making a point)

You can say that Vinny got the best players available, but you also have to have a plan on drafting NEEDS. We had needs that were not addressed in the draft. We did get SOME depth which is good, but Horton is the only draftee that has become a NFL starter....and he was our last pick overall

PulpExposure wrote:To be fair about the line, NO ONE saw the offensive line imploding like this. The line wasn't great last year, but that was because we had our starting RG, and our starting AND second string RT out. With Thomas and Jansen back, our line seemed okay to hold together for another year. And the Redskins DID draft a guard in the 3rd round.

Our most pressing needs were d-line and WR...but as I've posted before, there weren't any d-linemen in the 2nd round that have done squat so far.

Agreed, and hindsight is always 20/20 when it comes to the draft.

Bob 0119 wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:To be fair about the line, NO ONE saw the offensive line imploding like this. The line wasn't great last year, but that was because we had our starting RG, and our starting AND second string RT out. With Thomas and Jansen back, our line seemed okay to hold together for another year. And the Redskins DID draft a guard in the 3rd round.

Our most pressing needs were d-line and WR...but as I've posted before, there weren't any d-linemen in the 2nd round that have done squat so far.

Agreed, and hindsight is always 20/20 when it comes to the draft.

Well... I agree but I also feel that it was a ticking time bomb. The warning signs were there.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:

Bob 0119 wrote:

PulpExposure wrote:To be fair about the line, NO ONE saw the offensive line imploding like this. The line wasn't great last year, but that was because we had our starting RG, and our starting AND second string RT out. With Thomas and Jansen back, our line seemed okay to hold together for another year. And the Redskins DID draft a guard in the 3rd round.

Our most pressing needs were d-line and WR...but as I've posted before, there weren't any d-linemen in the 2nd round that have done squat so far.

Agreed, and hindsight is always 20/20 when it comes to the draft.

Well... I agree but I also feel that it was a ticking time bomb. The warning signs were there.

There were many people who were upset that the line hadn't been addressed with more vigor. I think it was the top 7 out of 8 lineman that were over 30 in the beginning of this year (and this was arguable if you counted Heyer in our top 8 ). I know I took it with a grain of salt hoping that the o-line could hold up, but it was asking a lot of them to stay healthy for a whole season. Now we've lost both starting T (Jansen won't be 100% and even if he is, is it enough anymore?).

VetSkinsFan wrote:There were many people who were upset that the line hadn't been addressed with more vigor. I think it was the top 7 out of 8 lineman that were over 30 in the beginning of this year (and this was arguable if you counted Heyer in our top . I know I took it with a grain of salt hoping that the o-line could hold up, but it was asking a lot of them to stay healthy for a whole season. Now we've lost both starting T (Jansen won't be 100% and even if he is, is it enough anymore?).

I actually got the feeling that most people were pleasantly surprised we drafted Rheinhart in the 3rd round. Most people seemed ticked off we drafted Davis instead of a d-lineman (despite no d-linemen that were drafted around his pick having panned out so far)...I didn't hear a lot of clamoring to spend a 2nd on an offensive lineman who would be sitting this year anyways.

PulpExposure wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:There were many people who were upset that the line hadn't been addressed with more vigor. I think it was the top 7 out of 8 lineman that were over 30 in the beginning of this year (and this was arguable if you counted Heyer in our top 8 ). I know I took it with a grain of salt hoping that the o-line could hold up, but it was asking a lot of them to stay healthy for a whole season. Now we've lost both starting T (Jansen won't be 100% and even if he is, is it enough anymore?).

I actually got the feeling that most people were pleasantly surprised we drafted Rheinhart in the 3rd round. Most people seemed ticked off we drafted Davis instead of a d-lineman (despite no d-linemen that were drafted around his pick having panned out so far)...I didn't hear a lot of clamoring to spend a 2nd on an offensive lineman who would be sitting this year anyways.

I didn't like the fact that we only had 1 o-lineman in all of the off-season. I do remember more noise about the D, though.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Well, we have two young tackles and a backup center. We have some guys to evaluate and hopelly they'll pan out. We need to get the next generation of our line in the works. It'll take about 2 years.

AMEN even the qb could be ready, for then and I believe only then will we win A SB, however with a little help from the draft and a little luck 2009 might be the year, then we will go back to back.

comment of the day colt brennan is 6'3'' is that big enough?

frankcal20 wrote:All these things yet no one really took a look at the salary cap ramifications that this would bring.

I don't have the figures but I'm sure some of you can find out that the O-line isn't going anywhere until they retire. They make too much money and have way too much of it guaranteed.

We have a Ballet-Dancing owner tippy toeing the salary cap every year and always manages to make it work, for the last few years, it should've been salary cap hell and we always end up OK, we might not get the players we NEED but we sure get the players we want.

maybe we should go sign some guys who play Rugby to be in our O&D front line. theyre usually HUGE and used to shoving the other side around....

especially since it seems good linemen are scarce(this draft seems geared for more Qbs than linemen)

zorns offense needs to be called droped passes or do it again.

BurgundyandGoldfaith wrote:I have yet to read anyone with any criticism of VINNY CERRATO. The man arranges the team like a fantasy football roster. Everyone calls for the rookie WR's heads when their routes consist of six steps from the line before Cambell is under severe pressure. The Oline and Dline have been allowed to deteriorate to this point and now the cracks are turning to potholes. Here's my list for replacements.

Randel El- sometimes he seems like a bright spot but it really feels to me that he is taking playing time away from someone who could ease up the pressure on Moss/Cooley.

Randy Thomas- Did you see him get Pancaked? It was the ugliest thing I've ever seen, I don't know if any Olinemen has fallen so far from his strengths or the way he played the year prior(Jansen is terrible normaly)

Jansen - no team should ever have to line up with a Tackle who clearly cannot pass protect. If Heyer can get stronger in the offseason we may have a solution to RT.

Betts - it's a shame we couldn't get any value for him after he ran for 1000 yds, he's no changeup like Mclain

Kendall - plays awfully well for his age, but we've seen what not addressing the future can do to eveyone's position. Here's hoping for Rinehart's success

Rabach - How much did we pay this guy? the best centers in the draft usually go between the 2nd and 3rd rounds, that should be a sure target this offseason

Washington/Blades - am I the only one that doesn't feel like Blades is a long term solution? How much of the cap is going to Washingon?

DT - they all seem adequate, but adequate never collapses the pocket

Special thanks to SSprings, thanks-for nothing. nothing like playing for your next team's contract

Zorn- a good move, but nobody can work these kinds of miracles. I hope he is here next year...Cerrato should be on the radio show today but he announced last week that he's going to miss it. hmmm

WOW!!!!!
Dude, you should be our GM!
Seriously, what great observations. And, right on the money.

PulpExposure wrote:To be fair about the line, NO ONE saw the offensive line imploding like this. The line wasn't great last year, but that was because we had our starting RG, and our starting AND second string RT out. With Thomas and Jansen back, our line seemed okay to hold together for another year. And the Redskins DID draft a guard in the 3rd round.

Our most pressing needs were d-line and WR...but as I've posted before, there weren't any d-linemen in the 2nd round that have done squat so far.

Not so. A number of us foresaw the collapse of the line this year and anticipated injuries we couldn't cover. I thought, correctly, that the line would hold up the first half of the season and then collapse. Next year will be worse, unless we start grabbing OL studs from the draft and FA, regardless of cost. We also need to jettison a number of players. I don't know about finances--maybe the above isn't possible. My best guess is that there will only be a pickup or two, that Rhineheart won't work out, and the other old guys will be a year older.

Also alarming, Portis will only last a part of the season next year and Campbell with never be a player we can win with. The defense is also a problem, regardless of what some here think. Blades is a weak link and the pass rush is terrible. Griff has gotten too old and our DE are effective neither against the run nor in rushing the passer. Next year, they'll pound us into submission unless we come up with a stud tackle to go with Montgomery.

SoulDOut wrote:maybe we should go sign some guys who play Rugby to be in our O&D front line. theyre usually HUGE and used to shoving the other side around....

especially since it seems good linemen are scarce(this draft seems geared for more Qbs than linemen)

nah, Sumo wrestlers would be better since they are already trained to keep their guy in front of them and not give ground.