The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

First off let me start off by saying whats up with the message board at the redskins.com website? they don't allow anyone to post or reply? whats the point of their message board if the moderators are the only ones who can post?

Anywho, now that the redskins are out of the playoff picture can jim zorn please sit Jason Fumble and start Colt brennan? Lets start giving Malcolm Kelly, Devin Thomas and Fred Davis some burn and prep for next season.
From what iv'e seen in todays game the o-line has been injured so i think picking up at least two offensive linemen in the draft or from free agent should be the skins #1 concern. Also Jim Zorn's been making some questionable decisions throughout the game especially calling timeouts at the end of the game when he let the time run out and out of nowhere decided to stop the clock with somewhere around 50 seconds left. He also won a challenge to get back 5 yards. I also thought the time management was terrible because he could've gotten off a play with 12 seconds left in the third quarter down 17 points and again before the two minute warning in the fourth quarter down 14.

Both defenses played outstanding but the ravens defense gave them 7 points and their offense scored a td from a skins turnover. whereas the skins had two turnovers and got away with 3points. That tells you the skins offense has some problems. This offense is the problem and they let the skins defense down every game. i haven't witnessed the skins score more than 15 points the past 7 games. When the skins win though they dont win by big margins, the most ive seen was by 6points.

I can't believe im going to say this but i think that Joe Flacco outplayed Jason Fumble and Joe Flaccos a rookie and Jason Fumbles suppose to be the franchise quarterback? I know the offensive linemen hasn't played well but seriously is that the excuse were going to make, for him playing poorly the past 3 years? The consecutive passes without an into is a stat thats not too impressive to me because all those passes were short, quick and mostly like the 1st or 2nd options. Jason Fumble plays way too conservative and doesn't look like a leader out there. Qbs such as Big Ben and Tony Romo are players that can either hurt you or win for you. Those guys take chances, they might throw intos here and there but they manage the offensive side of the game and they get the job done, whereas Jason Fumble (playing way too conservative) never throws the ball deep, doesn't look too accurate and sits in a collapsing pocket when he was a good scrambler in auburn. This team looks like it copied the same offensive playbook when they were coached by joe gibbs. they can run the ball but they suck in passing. They never throw the ball deep, the qb never gets in rhythm therefore leading to three and outs. how does jim zorn expect Jason Fumble to play well when portis runs the ball for no or negative yardages in their first two plays then they have a 3rd and 10 and expect Jason Fumble to make plays (which he still hasn't proven himself yet).

So many problems too fix and the skins have plenty of time since there seasons practically over so hope they make the correct moves and coaching to do well next season. By the way John Madden called jason campbell jason fumble so thats why i used it. Now let me hear what you guys think or have to say!

I really like Colt Brennan but having him go into this situation may not be the best thing for his development. How can we fairly judge jason when he has no time to set and throw, we can't, not to mention the NEW offense yet again, to give up on Cam now is to make him a scapegoat and that's not fair. We need alot of new personnel on the LINE's.

Gibbs4Life wrote:I really like Colt Brennan but having him go into this situation may not be the best thing for his development. How can we fairly judge jason when he has no time to set and throw, we can't, not to mention the NEW offense yet again, to give up on Cam now is to make him a scapegoat and that's not fair. We need alot of new personnel on the LINE's.

We had a prefectly healthy line last year and campbell was a no show. I still see the same problems in him which are no deep passes, inaccuracy, and deosn't like to use his legs to get more time. if someones at a stage where he is not progressing and theres no playoff hopes left then why not give brennan a try? Not saying campbells been playing terrible but hes been pretty mediocre. Like John Madden said the skins are good but not elite and i think it starts at the qb. I just wanna see Brennan get a shot and if he is mediocre as well you can always go back to campbell.

AGREED!!!

Please put Colt in... I've followed him throughout his entire college career, and the day we drafted him was one of the most exciting for me as a redskin fan... There is something to be said for all him collegiate accomplishments. Ken Dorsey he is not! I have also given up on this season as of the end of this game. I always root for them to win, but the best thing that can happen is that they loose the last three so they can get a better draft choice next April. Somewhere around 13-15 would be nice. O-line or D-line please.... Also, we better resign D. Hall, and look into getting a solid D tackle (Haynesworth anyone).

Anyways, yes lets put Brennan in... Not because I hate Campbell, but because I believe he will always be a game manager and never a game changer!!!

Alright! I'm going to attempt to respond to this one section at a time, forgive me if it's not entirely coherent. It's 2:00am over here. I'll address other issues first, and end with my thoughts on the Campbell/Collins/Brennan "situation".

Crakaplz wrote:...Anywho, now that the redskins are out of the playoff picture can jim zorn please sit Jason Fumble and start Colt brennan? Lets start giving Malcolm Kelly, Devin Thomas and Fred Davis some burn and prep for next season.
From what iv'e seen in todays game the o-line has been injured so i think picking up at least two offensive linemen in the draft or from free agent should be the skins #1 concern. Also Jim Zorn's been making some questionable decisions throughout the game especially calling timeouts at the end of the game when he let the time run out and out of nowhere decided to stop the clock with somewhere around 50 seconds left. He also won a challenge to get back 5 yards. I also thought the time management was terrible because he could've gotten off a play with 12 seconds left in the third quarter down 17 points and again before the two minute warning in the fourth quarter down 14.

Both defenses played outstanding but the ravens defense gave them 7 points and their offense scored a td from a skins turnover. whereas the skins had two turnovers and got away with 3points. That tells you the skins offense has some problems. This offense is the problem and they let the skins defense down every game. i haven't witnessed the skins score more than 15 points the past 7 games. When the skins win though they dont win by big margins, the most ive seen was by 6points.

I can't believe im going to say this but i think that Joe Flacco outplayed Jason Fumble and Joe Flaccos a rookie and Jason Fumbles suppose to be the franchise quarterback? I know the offensive linemen hasn't played well but seriously is that the excuse were going to make, for him playing poorly the past 3 years? The consecutive passes without an into is a stat thats not too impressive to me because all those passes were short, quick and mostly like the 1st or 2nd options. Jason Fumble plays way too conservative and doesn't look like a leader out there. Qbs such as Big Ben and Tony Romo are players that can either hurt you or win for you. Those guys take chances, they might throw intos here and there but they manage the offensive side of the game and they get the job done, whereas Jason Fumble (playing way too conservative) never throws the ball deep, doesn't look too accurate and sits in a collapsing pocket when he was a good scrambler in auburn. This team looks like it copied the same offensive playbook when they were coached by joe gibbs. they can run the ball but they suck in passing. They never throw the ball deep, the qb never gets in rhythm therefore leading to three and outs. how does jim zorn expect Jason Fumble to play well when portis runs the ball for no or negative yardages in their first two plays then they have a 3rd and 10 and expect Jason Fumble to make plays (which he still hasn't proven himself yet).

So many problems too fix and the skins have plenty of time since there seasons practically over so hope they make the correct moves and coaching to do well next season. By the way John Madden called jason campbell jason fumble so thats why i used it. Now let me hear what you guys think or have to say!

Thomas, Kelly and Davis
I've seen both Kelly and Thomas in games, and while Thomas is impressing, Kelly has shown an affinity for dropping the ball (literally), so I'm confused on how you want them to get more "burn and prep". My understanding on Fred Davis is that he isn't trusted by Zorn and has shown an inability to understand the offense thus far. How accurate is that? I have no idea, I think I remember reading it somewhere.

The O-Line
The O-line has been completely mediocre this year. They can beat the average D-line, but if they are matched up against one of those "elite teams", they fall apart. The age of some of them is definitely starting to show. The O-line was a major concern last year, and nothing was done about it. Those problems came back to haunt us, as I'm sure many of you said would happen when we didn't make any line moves during the offseason.

Zorn
Zorn's clock management came under fire early in the season, and it seems to me that is something that comes with experience managing the clock. Remember, he's still a first year head coach.

Defense, Defense!
Coming into this game I had a conversation with my brother about the strengths and weaknesses of our teams. The one thing we both agreed on that gave a significant advantage to the Ravens is the fact that they have an extremely opportunistic defense. Their defense makes the plays that our's does not. I'm not saying anything bad about the Redskin's defense, they are a good unit, but the amount of dropped interceptions/missed opportunities and the lack of a pass rush is astounding (especially because we blitz more than anyone else in the league!). The Ravens have had an extremely successful defense for many years now, and that leads in large part to their success. Strong defenses win games. The Giants showed the Patriots that one last year.

Campbell
In another thread I defended Jason Campbell, citing the fact that he's behind a leaky offensive line, has no targets to throw at, and really is the product of unfortuate circumstances, and I still agree... with myself.

The QB isn't the end-all, be-all to a successful offense. Take a good Quarterback, let's say...Big Ben. Put him behind a leaky offensive line (that actually happened to him this year). He gets hit a lot, but he can still make plays to his big recievers. Now, take away his 6'0 Hines Ward, his 6'1 Nate Washington, and his Santonio Holmes, who is right under 6'0. Give him a really fast 5'10 (Moss) and a reciever who drops 50% of what's thrown to him (Randel El). Slap him with two big rookies, one of which has been injured all season, and Big Ben would have similar troubles to Campbell. Tony Romo? Same thing, take away his speedy 6'3 T.O., his other big guy at 6'3, Roy Williams, and his 6'0 Patrick Crayton, and he has the same problems that Jason Campbell is having. My point is, for a quarterback to be great, he needs to have people to throw to, he needs to be able to trust those people, and they need to be able to make plays after recieving the ball. Campbell is just one piece of the puzzle, and he's not the piece that is malfunctioning right now.

Even through all the problems that Campbell has had around him this year (O-line, recievers) let's compare some statistics;
Cmp Att Cmp% Yds YP TD Int
Jason Campbell: 262 415 63.1 2,778 6.7 11 6

Tony Romo: 211 336 62.8 2,769 8.2 22 11

Ben Roethlisberger: 225 376 59.8 2,616 7.0 14 12

Looking at these, the completion percentages are similar, the yardage is similar. The YPA is slightly less in Campbell's case, and the TD to INT ratio is about 50% for Romo and Campbell, and significantly higher for Roethlisberger. So why are the Redskins sitting at 7-6, while the Cowgirls enjoy 8-5, and the Steelers enjoy 10-3? The Cowgirls have an effective offense, and a solid defense. They have 2 big recieving weapons in T.O. and Roy E. Williams, a good tight end in Witten, and even a good third string reciever in Crayton. Romo sits behind a solid offensive line and has plenty of giant men to throw to. Big Ben is consistently bailed out by a dominant defense. The Steelers D wins their games, and when Ben has to be clutch, he has big recievers to throw it up to.

I have no doubt that one day we'll see Colt Brennan lighting up the field with his bravado and insane playmaking ability, but throwing him in right now is a mistake in my opinion. I'm a firm believer in having rookie QBs learn before they are thrown into the fire, and throwing Colt into this situation would be a mistake.

... But back to Campbell.... I know that O-line problems, lack of recievers, and the fact that he's in yet another new offensive system really doesn't explain why the team can't score points. Oh wait. Yes it does!

Crakaplz wrote:

Gibbs4Life wrote:I really like Colt Brennan but having him go into this situation may not be the best thing for his development. How can we fairly judge jason when he has no time to set and throw, we can't, not to mention the NEW offense yet again, to give up on Cam now is to make him a scapegoat and that's not fair. We need alot of new personnel on the LINE's.

We had a prefectly healthy line last year and campbell was a no show. I still see the same problems in him which are no deep passes, inaccuracy, and deosn't like to use his legs to get more time. if someones at a stage where he is not progressing and theres no playoff hopes left then why not give brennan a try? Not saying campbells been playing terrible but hes been pretty mediocre. Like John Madden said the skins are good but not elite and i think it starts at the qb. I just wanna see Brennan get a shot and if he is mediocre as well you can always go back to campbell.

I'm reasonably sure our O-line was pretty decimated by injuries last year. Maybe that's just my foggy memory though....

no... sooo tired of the Skins and the fans....

Colt Brennan? What? So, let me get this straight. JC can't get any time to throw, so let's put the 3rd stringer in the game to see what he can do? I'm as frustrated as everyone else, but this doesn't make any sense.

Calling for the back-up QB is the annual chant at FedEx Field....but the 3rd stringer would be new, even for us. I think I called for Babe Laufenberg, once or twice at old RFK, and maybe even John Friesz, but I think Colt's a little too wet behind the ears to be called under fire right away. Didn't we completely destroy Patrick Ramsey the same way?

As for Fred Davis...he's not playing because he doesn't know when to stay in to block and when to go out for a pass. I was at the game, when he mistakenly let the blitzing LB come in untouched as he went out on a route and Zorn let him have it...and he hasn't played since. If you'll remember, they actually tried to run the offense around him 1 week, and even ran a reverse with him. He made nothing happen and he was done.

Kelly I think has been taking receiving instructions from Carlos Rogers. He has at least 3 balls dropped directly into his hands which he's dropped. If caught, these would have doubled his receptions.

Another point...It's time to cut the punter and the kicker. Now that we are basically eliminated its time to find some pieces that can help us next year. I know that everyone's going to come online taking about 10-6 is still an option, but with our offense, you can't be serious.

Finally, can we officially turn the page on Jason Taylor, I'm sick of watching him not get to the QB. He's not even close.

I can't wait 'til we make a run at Michael Vick in July and start running the Wildcat. Don't act like its not going to happen....'cause it is.

jbxrocker23 wrote:

Crakaplz wrote:

Gibbs4Life wrote:I really like Colt Brennan but having him go into this situation may not be the best thing for his development. How can we fairly judge jason when he has no time to set and throw, we can't, not to mention the NEW offense yet again, to give up on Cam now is to make him a scapegoat and that's not fair. We need alot of new personnel on the LINE's.

We had a prefectly healthy line last year and campbell was a no show. I still see the same problems in him which are no deep passes, inaccuracy, and deosn't like to use his legs to get more time. if someones at a stage where he is not progressing and theres no playoff hopes left then why not give brennan a try? Not saying campbells been playing terrible but hes been pretty mediocre. Like John Madden said the skins are good but not elite and i think it starts at the qb. I just wanna see Brennan get a shot and if he is mediocre as well you can always go back to campbell.

I'm reasonably sure our O-line was pretty decimated by injuries last year. Maybe that's just my foggy memory though....

I'm reasonably sure that whatever condition the line was in, and however mediocre the receiving corps was, they were the same when Collins came in and turned the entire offense around, instantly.

The Chicago game last year was almost a clone of the Ravens game. With JC at the helm, the offense stalled time and again....3 minutes left in the half, and a big goose egg on the scoreboard, Collins came in and scored a TD before the half, and another in the opening drive of the second half. Same o-line, same receivers, same everything, 2 TD's in less than 4 minutes. So, all of the Jason Campbell apologists claimed then, and still do, that it was Collins familiarity with the offense that was the difference, and not Collins ability to actually make plays.

But you can't have it both ways. You can't say that Jason Campbell is failing because the o-line isn't protecting him and the receivers aren't catching the ball, only to turn around and say that the reason for Collin's success was familiarity with the offense. I mean, how does that help the line block, or the receivers to catch? After all, you said anybody would have the same problem playing under the conditions Campbell has had to play, did you not? Well????

I find such analysis of the situation to be idiotic. To simply refuse to consider cause and effect is rather puzzling. No, the window didn't break because the temperature combined with the outside wind reacted to an odd change in barometric pressure effecting a particular defect in the glass that was made during the manufacturing process, causing the glass to break apart just a split second before the rock went through the opening. No. It was most likely the rock that broke the window.

Every team has "issues". Every team has sacks and pressure, and last time I checked, Steve Smith was a pretty decent receiver for a short guy at 5'-9. DeSean Jackson, the rookie is short too, 5-10. Others? Wes Welker 5-9, Derrick Mason 5-10, Greg Jennings 5-11. Then there are the real tall guys at 6-0....Reggie Wayne. Marvin Harrison, Hines Ward, Tory Holt, Donald Driver, Roddy White. Sorry, but I'm not convinced that you need receivers to be 6-4 for a QB to throw TD passes.

As for the horrible o-line. The Ravens sacked Campbell twice. Guess what, the Ravens average just over 2 sacks per game, so nothing new there. The Cowboys have 45 sacks so far...that's almost 4 per game average. So it seems the Redskins have lots of company in the NFL.

Campbell has been sacked 34 times this year, while averaging 16 points per game. The Patriots are averaging 23 per game and have given up 43 sacks. Pittsburg 41 sacks/22 ppg, San Fran-45 sacks and 22 ppg....you get the picture I'm drawing here?

Sadly, our 16.8 points per game is exactly equal to the Detroit Lions. And it's lower than the 18.3 ppg average at week 10, in 2006 when everyone wanted to publicly execute Mark Brunell, and cheered when he was benched. But, of course, no one mentioned that Brunell was playing in only his 9th game under the new Al Saunders system (after he'd learned Gibbs system and took us to the playoffs the year before).....you know....that system that Brunell was supposed to learn overnight, yet Campbell was given 2 years and 20 games to get comfortable? That's right, old Mark was thrown to the wolves, and no one mentioned that he had two systems to learn in three years....just like Campbell.

Back then, it was the QB, Mark Brunell that was to blame if a kick returner fumbled. If it rained, Brunell was blamed.

I find the hypocrisy of all this incredible.