The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Nineteen QBs in 15 seasons. We have a problem!

http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/ ... b-problem/

The best way to obtain a franchise QB is to steal one from another team through free agency. Very few drafted QB's survive three seasons in the NFL. Even fewer become a Tom Brady or a Peyton Manning.

The Redskins head coaches have been responsible for the number of QB's who had no business playing the position in the NFL. Honestly, it isn't all Steve Spurrier's fault, although enough of it is. Is there any Redskins fan who wouldn't like to slap the stupid out of him for every QB mistake in the last twenty-plus seasons? I would, not only for his mistakes, but I'd also like to blame him for all of the others. Florida QB's are awful, woeful, horrendous, pitiful. Beyond that, they are never NFL caliber QB's.

The rule of thumb is that if your team needs a QB, get one from Tampa Bay. They produce more good QB's than anyone else, just not for their own team.

Yea but no team is going to trade a Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. That won't happen.

You would have to get the guy before he has proven himself. Like Faver. If the Falcons knew Faver would be as good as he ended up being, they wouldn't have traded him either. But you get into trading for backups..

Well, thats just as big of chance as a draft pick.

The only one playing now that I could think of, would be Brady Quinn. But again he is still unproven.

The only other QB we would be able to trade for is the ones on the down side of their career. Like Brunell.

I think the QB carousel is more of a function of the instability in coaches, than some other problem. Every coach basically started over with new QBs.

Let's not also forget that the Skins developed Trent Green, but then when JKC died, and the team was in limbo, they couldn't resign him. Eventually, they went for Brad Johnson instead until he flaked out.

marty decided to try to make Jeff George a WCO QB, then dumped him for Tony Banks. When Spurrier came in, he brought his schlubs, hoping to develop Patrick Ramsey. He basically killed that guy's career with his minimum protection schemes.

Then Gibbs came in and hopefully drafted our QB for the next decade. We'll see if that pans out...

Campbell will turn it around. wait and see. he might not be manning or brady but i kno he will be good

RobJanis wrote:Nineteen QBs in 15 seasons. We have a problem!

http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/ ... b-problem/

Ya think?

The best way to obtain a franchise QB is to steal one from another team through free agency.

Not really. Look at the best qb's in the NFL and most are playing with the teams that originally drafted them. Brady, Peyton, Romo, Palmer, Roethlisberger, etc. are all still with their original teams. It's very difficult to pry away a top qb from another team.

Skeletor wrote:marty decided to try to make Jeff George a WCO QB, then dumped him for Tony Banks.

No...Snyder brought in Jeff George, whom Marty didn't want...

You don't need a franchise quality QB to win Super Bowls, but you do need your QB to make plays and limit mistakes-- and stay healthy!

Looking back, the Skins have developed a lot of QBs from obscurity that became successful in DC or other places in a starting role: Jay Schoeder, Mark Rypien, Trent Green, Stan Humphries, and Gus Frerotte. We let go of Rich Gannon who went on to put up some stats in Oakland. Sage Rosenfels surprised a lot of Houston fans last year. Patrick Ramsey was never given a chance to develop or live up to his own hype. I think that was Gibbs's only real miscue; not giving Ramsey a chance to prove himself. He could have been good-- he had an arm and some intangibles, stuff you can't teach. Brunell was never the guy to carry the team although he gave it a good shot.

Theismann was drafted by the Skins and came to the team via the CFL, gaining some experience there first. It took him years to get good and the right system. Doug Williams was an amazing talent at QB and had enough left in him and surrounding cast to get it done.

Picking a franchise QB in the draft is not easy and a ton of luck figures into it. It's risky business if a prized rookie QB fails (see Heath Schuler). You have to keep digging until you finally hit on a good QB.

I think for now what the Skins are doing is a good start. That is, they're trying to draft or bring in rookie free agents at QB that they can develop. They drafted QBs 3 out of the last 4 years and I expect they'll pick one every year at some slot until they strike gold. Is Colt Brennan going to develop into a good QB? I don't like his size but Theismann wasn't big either. If he does, it'll take three or four years on the roster.

Meanwhile, keep drafting/signing QBs. I'm not high on Jason Campbell. He has all the tools but he can't sense pressure well and lands awkwardly when he's hit so he's more prone to injury. Maybe with great OL he can succeed but his window is not long to prove he's the guy. Now he starts from square one again in a new offense.

HanburgerHelper wrote:You don't need a franchise quality QB to win Super Bowls, but you do need your QB to make plays and limit mistakes-- and stay healthy!

Looking back, the Skins have developed a lot of QBs from obscurity that became successful in DC or other places in a starting role: Jay Schoeder, Mark Rypien, Trent Green, Stan Humphries, and Gus Frerotte. We let go of Rich Gannon who went on to put up some stats in Oakland. Sage Rosenfels surprised a lot of Houston fans last year. Patrick Ramsey was never given a chance to develop or live up to his own hype. I think that was Gibbs's only real miscue; not giving Ramsey a chance to prove himself. He could have been good-- he had an arm and some intangibles, stuff you can't teach. Brunell was never the guy to carry the team although he gave it a good shot.

Theismann was drafted by the Skins and came to the team via the CFL, gaining some experience there first. It took him years to get good and the right system. Doug Williams was an amazing talent at QB and had enough left in him and surrounding cast to get it done.

Picking a franchise QB in the draft is not easy and a ton of luck figures into it. It's risky business if a prized rookie QB fails (see Heath Schuler). You have to keep digging until you finally hit on a good QB.

I think for now what the Skins are doing is a good start. That is, they're trying to draft or bring in rookie free agents at QB that they can develop. They drafted QBs 3 out of the last 4 years and I expect they'll pick one every year at some slot until they strike gold. Is Colt Brennan going to develop into a good QB? I don't like his size but Theismann wasn't big either. If he does, it'll take three or four years on the roster.

Meanwhile, keep drafting/signing QBs. I'm not high on Jason Campbell. He has all the tools but he can't sense pressure well and lands awkwardly when he's hit so he's more prone to injury. Maybe with great OL he can succeed but his window is not long to prove he's the guy. Now he starts from square one again in a new offense.

ramsey's failure wasnt gibbs' fault it was steve spurrier who didnt protect him in his early years and by the time gibbs got there he had taken a beating and his confidence was gone along with his career. another example of how spurriers run n gun and most college offenses dont work in the NFL. this was also the case with david carr in houston. i think he had talent but by the time he got a real chance to play in carolina he was so beat up from getting sacked 70+ times a year that he was just done physicaly and mentally. but i do think campbell is gonna be good only if he can get better at sensing pressure from the blind side

Our problem is Sammy Baugh isn't in playing shape anymore.

Jake wrote:Our problem is Sammy Baugh isn't in playing shape anymore.

Sonny J is. He's in about the same shape as his playing days.

You don't need a franchise quality QB to win Super Bowls, but you do need your QB to make plays and limit mistakes-- and stay healthy!

Right. Gibbs won 3 Superbowls with 3 different QB's.

Bump

You don't need a franchise quality QB to win Super Bowls, but you do need your QB to make plays and limit mistakes-- and stay healthy!

Yeah, I remember Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson, Jim McMahon winning a Super Bowl and they're not going to be anywhere near the Hall-Of-Hame.

I'm not seeing the big problem. We can't do anything about the past. Currently we have JC who threw for 2700 yards, 12 TD's and 11 Int's with major injuries along the O-line and WR and a lack of talent at WR. If he had played the full 16 games, he was on a pace for over 3300 yards passing which would have put him 13th in the NFL. Now look at the WR's the top 12 QB's had to throw to and you'll start feeling a little better about what JC can do. With Collins as the backup there is no reason we should not be excited about the future with Zorn and the new WR's to help out.

fleetus wrote:I'm not seeing the big problem. We can't do anything about the past. Currently we have JC who threw for 2700 yards, 12 TD's and 11 Int's with major injuries along the O-line and WR and a lack of talent at WR. If he had played the full 16 games, he was on a pace for over 3300 yards passing which would have put him 13th in the NFL. Now look at the WR's the top 12 QB's had to throw to and you'll start feeling a little better about what JC can do. With Collins as the backup there is no reason we should not be excited about the future with Zorn and the new WR's to help out.

I still think Collins is a system QB, cheaper mentor than Brunell, and I don't think Collins will fare quite as well in Zorn's system as AS system he was a student of for a decade.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

fleetus wrote:I'm not seeing the big problem. We can't do anything about the past. Currently we have JC who threw for 2700 yards, 12 TD's and 11 Int's with major injuries along the O-line and WR and a lack of talent at WR. If he had played the full 16 games, he was on a pace for over 3300 yards passing which would have put him 13th in the NFL. Now look at the WR's the top 12 QB's had to throw to and you'll start feeling a little better about what JC can do. With Collins as the backup there is no reason we should not be excited about the future with Zorn and the new WR's to help out.

I still think Collins is a system QB, cheaper mentor than Brunell, and I don't think Collins will fare quite as well in Zorn's system as AS system he was a student of for a decade.

Maybe, but I still think he's a solid backup.

yupchagee wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

fleetus wrote:I'm not seeing the big problem. We can't do anything about the past. Currently we have JC who threw for 2700 yards, 12 TD's and 11 Int's with major injuries along the O-line and WR and a lack of talent at WR. If he had played the full 16 games, he was on a pace for over 3300 yards passing which would have put him 13th in the NFL. Now look at the WR's the top 12 QB's had to throw to and you'll start feeling a little better about what JC can do. With Collins as the backup there is no reason we should not be excited about the future with Zorn and the new WR's to help out.

I still think Collins is a system QB, cheaper mentor than Brunell, and I don't think Collins will fare quite as well in Zorn's system as AS system he was a student of for a decade.

Maybe, but I still think he's a solid backup.

I won't even go that far.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

yupchagee wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

fleetus wrote:I'm not seeing the big problem. We can't do anything about the past. Currently we have JC who threw for 2700 yards, 12 TD's and 11 Int's with major injuries along the O-line and WR and a lack of talent at WR. If he had played the full 16 games, he was on a pace for over 3300 yards passing which would have put him 13th in the NFL. Now look at the WR's the top 12 QB's had to throw to and you'll start feeling a little better about what JC can do. With Collins as the backup there is no reason we should not be excited about the future with Zorn and the new WR's to help out.

I still think Collins is a system QB, cheaper mentor than Brunell, and I don't think Collins will fare quite as well in Zorn's system as AS system he was a student of for a decade.

Maybe, but I still think he's a solid backup.

I won't even go that far.

Collins is a better QB than Campbell at this point. I think that's pretty obvious. Look up their relative records with the same supporting cast.

People on this site are constantly thinking with their hearts instead of their heads. Everyone wants to see Campbell do well, so automatically they assume he's great. Right now, he's not very good. A big part of that is our weak offensive line and weak pass protection. How many unforced fumbles did Campbell have last year? At one point it seemed like he fumbled every time he got hit. How many misfires on the long ball? I can think of at least two big-time misses to deep, wide-open receivers, and many other poorly thrown 'touch' passes. And the minute he got knocked out of the Bears game, things started turning around for us.

Granted, poor o-line was not so much a factor with Collins because Collins was a more effective passer. Mainly, I think, because he did not have to think so much about where he was going with the ball. But no matter how you slice it, Collins was a better QB for us last year than Campbell. I doubt we would have made the playoffs with Campbell.

old-timer wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

yupchagee wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

fleetus wrote:I'm not seeing the big problem. We can't do anything about the past. Currently we have JC who threw for 2700 yards, 12 TD's and 11 Int's with major injuries along the O-line and WR and a lack of talent at WR. If he had played the full 16 games, he was on a pace for over 3300 yards passing which would have put him 13th in the NFL. Now look at the WR's the top 12 QB's had to throw to and you'll start feeling a little better about what JC can do. With Collins as the backup there is no reason we should not be excited about the future with Zorn and the new WR's to help out.

I still think Collins is a system QB, cheaper mentor than Brunell, and I don't think Collins will fare quite as well in Zorn's system as AS system he was a student of for a decade.

Maybe, but I still think he's a solid backup.

I won't even go that far.

Collins is a better QB than Campbell at this point. I think that's pretty obvious. Look up their relative records with the same supporting cast.

People on this site are constantly thinking with their hearts instead of their heads. Everyone wants to see Campbell do well, so automatically they assume he's great. Right now, he's not very good. A big part of that is our weak offensive line and weak pass protection. How many unforced fumbles did Campbell have last year? At one point it seemed like he fumbled every time he got hit. How many misfires on the long ball? I can think of at least two big-time misses to deep, wide-open receivers, and many other poorly thrown 'touch' passes. And the minute he got knocked out of the Bears game, things started turning around for us.

Granted, poor o-line was not so much a factor with Collins because Collins was a more effective passer. Mainly, I think, because he did not have to think so much about where he was going with the ball. But no matter how you slice it, Collins was a better QB for us last year than Campbell. I doubt we would have made the playoffs with Campbell.

I can only agree with you in the "right pace, right time" scenario. Collins was an AS system QB. He probably dreamt about that GD playbood he's studied it for so long (11 years I think?). JC didn't even have a full year.

On a side note, did you ever wonder why Collins had so many years between starts? Also, I think the o-line had actually had ~1 month to play together (HELLO COHESION) to actually semi protect Collins. Our running game also improved, WR injuries diminished....

I'm not sold on JC, so don't think I'm a bleeding heart JC fan. I think he needs two years in 1 system and he'll look pretty good(without the whole line breaking down on him). TBH, I wanna see Brennan toss the ole pigskin around and see what he's got this pre-season as well. I don't want a 38 career back-up in for 1-2 seasons MAX and then we're at square one again.

old-timer wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

yupchagee wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

fleetus wrote:I'm not seeing the big problem. We can't do anything about the past. Currently we have JC who threw for 2700 yards, 12 TD's and 11 Int's with major injuries along the O-line and WR and a lack of talent at WR. If he had played the full 16 games, he was on a pace for over 3300 yards passing which would have put him 13th in the NFL. Now look at the WR's the top 12 QB's had to throw to and you'll start feeling a little better about what JC can do. With Collins as the backup there is no reason we should not be excited about the future with Zorn and the new WR's to help out.

I still think Collins is a system QB, cheaper mentor than Brunell, and I don't think Collins will fare quite as well in Zorn's system as AS system he was a student of for a decade.

Maybe, but I still think he's a solid backup.

I won't even go that far.

Collins is a better QB than Campbell at this point. I think that's pretty obvious. Look up their relative records with the same supporting cast.

People on this site are constantly thinking with their hearts instead of their heads. Everyone wants to see Campbell do well, so automatically they assume he's great. Right now, he's not very good. A big part of that is our weak offensive line and weak pass protection. How many unforced fumbles did Campbell have last year? At one point it seemed like he fumbled every time he got hit. How many misfires on the long ball? I can think of at least two big-time misses to deep, wide-open receivers, and many other poorly thrown 'touch' passes. And the minute he got knocked out of the Bears game, things started turning around for us.

Granted, poor o-line was not so much a factor with Collins because Collins was a more effective passer. Mainly, I think, because he did not have to think so much about where he was going with the ball. But no matter how you slice it, Collins was a better QB for us last year than Campbell. I doubt we would have made the playoffs with Campbell.

I can only agree with you in the "right pace, right time" scenario. Collins was an AS system QB. He probably dreamt about that GD playbood he's studied it for so long (11 years I think?). JC didn't even have a full year.

On a side note, did you ever wonder why Collins had so many years between starts? Also, I think the o-line had actually had ~1 month to play together (HELLO COHESION) to actually semi protect Collins. Our running game also improved, WR injuries diminished....

I'm not sold on JC, so don't think I'm a bleeding heart JC fan. I think he needs two years in 1 system and he'll look pretty good(without the whole line breaking down on him). TBH, I wanna see Brennan toss the ole pigskin around and see what he's got this pre-season as well. I don't want a 38 career back-up in for 1-2 seasons MAX and then we're at square one again.

VetSkinsFan wrote:

old-timer wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

yupchagee wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

fleetus wrote:I'm not seeing the big problem. We can't do anything about the past. Currently we have JC who threw for 2700 yards, 12 TD's and 11 Int's with major injuries along the O-line and WR and a lack of talent at WR. If he had played the full 16 games, he was on a pace for over 3300 yards passing which would have put him 13th in the NFL. Now look at the WR's the top 12 QB's had to throw to and you'll start feeling a little better about what JC can do. With Collins as the backup there is no reason we should not be excited about the future with Zorn and the new WR's to help out.

I still think Collins is a system QB, cheaper mentor than Brunell, and I don't think Collins will fare quite as well in Zorn's system as AS system he was a student of for a decade.

Maybe, but I still think he's a solid backup.

I won't even go that far.

Collins is a better QB than Campbell at this point. I think that's pretty obvious. Look up their relative records with the same supporting cast.

People on this site are constantly thinking with their hearts instead of their heads. Everyone wants to see Campbell do well, so automatically they assume he's great. Right now, he's not very good. A big part of that is our weak offensive line and weak pass protection. How many unforced fumbles did Campbell have last year? At one point it seemed like he fumbled every time he got hit. How many misfires on the long ball? I can think of at least two big-time misses to deep, wide-open receivers, and many other poorly thrown 'touch' passes. And the minute he got knocked out of the Bears game, things started turning around for us.

Granted, poor o-line was not so much a factor with Collins because Collins was a more effective passer. Mainly, I think, because he did not have to think so much about where he was going with the ball. But no matter how you slice it, Collins was a better QB for us last year than Campbell. I doubt we would have made the playoffs with Campbell.

I can only agree with you in the "right pace, right time" scenario. Collins was an AS system QB. He probably dreamt about that GD playbood he's studied it for so long (11 years I think?). JC didn't even have a full year.

Yep, and let's face it. Campbell is still learning. Rypien, who he reminds me of, took years to develop, and that was with a great offensive line, max protect, and great WR's. Ryp also had the same fumble problem.

On a side note, did you ever wonder why Collins had so many years between starts?

Two words: Trent Green

Also, I think the o-line had actually had ~1 month to play together (HELLO COHESION) to actually semi protect Collins. Our running game also improved, WR injuries diminished....

Running game is chicken-and-egg with a better passer. Campbell didn't scare anyone as a passing threat, so the opposing LB's played more 8-in-the-box defense, blitzing, and smothering the running game. But when Collins started hitting timing passes consistently, defenses had to loosen up, that opened holes for the running game. This worked great for us until we ran into a strong D-line (Seattle, or NYG), that exposed our fundamental weakness on the o-line (4 failed tries from inside the 5, both costing us entire games). A weakness that still has not been corrected.

I'm not sold on JC, so don't think I'm a bleeding heart JC fan. I think he needs two years in 1 system and he'll look pretty good(without the whole line breaking down on him).

Maybe. I hope he gets a fighting chance. That would be more than Ramsey got, and a lot of good potential QB's get.

I don't want a 38 career back-up in for 1-2 seasons MAX and then we're at square one again.

I think in some ways this would be a good thing for Campbell. He gets an extra year or two to come up to speed, and Collins takes the chances with our suspect o-line. People don't want to see this happen because they're impatient to see Campbell play, but putting him in too soon could ruin his chances forever. I think people need to be more patient, and our front office definitely needs to smarten up when it comes to beefing up both our lines. Not too optimistic about the latter.

Breaking news folks! Pay attention the Redskins need a QB!

old-timer wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

old-timer wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

yupchagee wrote:

VetSkinsFan wrote:

fleetus wrote:I'm not seeing the big problem. We can't do anything about the past. Currently we have JC who threw for 2700 yards, 12 TD's and 11 Int's with major injuries along the O-line and WR and a lack of talent at WR. If he had played the full 16 games, he was on a pace for over 3300 yards passing which would have put him 13th in the NFL. Now look at the WR's the top 12 QB's had to throw to and you'll start feeling a little better about what JC can do. With Collins as the backup there is no reason we should not be excited about the future with Zorn and the new WR's to help out.

I still think Collins is a system QB, cheaper mentor than Brunell, and I don't think Collins will fare quite as well in Zorn's system as AS system he was a student of for a decade.

Maybe, but I still think he's a solid backup.

I won't even go that far.

Collins is a better QB than Campbell at this point. I think that's pretty obvious. Look up their relative records with the same supporting cast.

People on this site are constantly thinking with their hearts instead of their heads. Everyone wants to see Campbell do well, so automatically they assume he's great. Right now, he's not very good. A big part of that is our weak offensive line and weak pass protection. How many unforced fumbles did Campbell have last year? At one point it seemed like he fumbled every time he got hit. How many misfires on the long ball? I can think of at least two big-time misses to deep, wide-open receivers, and many other poorly thrown 'touch' passes. And the minute he got knocked out of the Bears game, things started turning around for us.

Granted, poor o-line was not so much a factor with Collins because Collins was a more effective passer. Mainly, I think, because he did not have to think so much about where he was going with the ball. But no matter how you slice it, Collins was a better QB for us last year than Campbell. I doubt we would have made the playoffs with Campbell.

I can only agree with you in the "right pace, right time" scenario. Collins was an AS system QB. He probably dreamt about that GD playbood he's studied it for so long (11 years I think?). JC didn't even have a full year.

Yep, and let's face it. Campbell is still learning. Rypien, who he reminds me of, took years to develop, and that was with a great offensive line, max protect, and great WR's. Ryp also had the same fumble problem.

On a side note, did you ever wonder why Collins had so many years between starts?

Two words: Trent Green

Also, I think the o-line had actually had ~1 month to play together (HELLO COHESION) to actually semi protect Collins. Our running game also improved, WR injuries diminished....

Running game is chicken-and-egg with a better passer. Campbell didn't scare anyone as a passing threat, so the opposing LB's played more 8-in-the-box defense, blitzing, and smothering the running game. But when Collins started hitting timing passes consistently, defenses had to loosen up, that opened holes for the running game. This worked great for us until we ran into a strong D-line (Seattle, or NYG), that exposed our fundamental weakness on the o-line (4 failed tries from inside the 5, both costing us entire games). A weakness that still has not been corrected.

I'm not sold on JC, so don't think I'm a bleeding heart JC fan. I think he needs two years in 1 system and he'll look pretty good(without the whole line breaking down on him).

Maybe. I hope he gets a fighting chance. That would be more than Ramsey got, and a lot of good potential QB's get.

I don't want a 38 career back-up in for 1-2 seasons MAX and then we're at square one again.

I think in some ways this would be a good thing for Campbell. He gets an extra year or two to come up to speed, and Collins takes the chances with our suspect o-line. People don't want to see this happen because they're impatient to see Campbell play, but putting him in too soon could ruin his chances forever. I think people need to be more patient, and our front office definitely needs to smarten up when it comes to beefing up both our lines. Not too optimistic about the latter.

On a side note, did you ever wonder why Collins had so many years between starts?

Two words: Trent Green

That was 5 of the 13 years....

I can only agree with you in the "right pace, right time" scenario. Collins was an AS system QB. He probably dreamt about that GD playbood he's studied it for so long (11 years I think?). JC didn't even have a full year.

Yep, and let's face it. Campbell is still learning. Rypien, who he reminds me of, took years to develop, and that was with a great offensive line, max protect, and great WR's. Ryp also had the same fumble problem.

This can be said about almost all QBs at any time. I'll bet a dollar to a donut that Collins will not excel as he did last year in the new system.

Also, I think the o-line had actually had ~1 month to play together (HELLO COHESION) to actually semi protect Collins. Our running game also improved, WR injuries diminished....

Running game is chicken-and-egg with a better passer. Campbell didn't scare anyone as a passing threat, so the opposing LB's played more 8-in-the-box defense, blitzing, and smothering the running game. But when Collins started hitting timing passes consistently, defenses had to loosen up, that opened holes for the running game. This worked great for us until we ran into a strong D-line (Seattle, or NYG), that exposed our fundamental weakness on the o-line (4 failed tries from inside the 5, both costing us entire games). A weakness that still has not been corrected.

I said that it was right place right time with the line coming together at the time that Collins was starting. We're arguing two sides of the same point I think. When the line solidified, the run and pass game got better. With a system QB like Collins, he SHOULD come in warm off the bench.

As bringing up the Giants/Seahawks (especially the Giants) those were some of het best defensive lines in the league. If I recall, even the Patriots had problems with the Giants BOTH times they played.