The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

Could Gibbs have been part of the front office problems some of these past years? Now this could start some flaming in two different directions, so let me first say two things:

1) The front office has gotten better the past couple of years with Gibbs involved. We went from horrendous signings like Deion, Jeff George etc. to mixed bad/good acquisitions like AA, Lloyd, ARE, Springs, Marcus Washington, Fletcher and Andre Carter.

2) Our draft strategy during Gibbs tenure was very mixed, with lots of picks traded away and mediocre results with the picks we did have.

So I ask the question about Gibbs because I think he brought some of that old Beathard style to the FO, where draft picks weren't worth much and were often used to trade for veterans. I've defended Gibbs tooth and nail over the years. but now, after seeing this draft where Cerrato was in charge, I am re-thinking my stance on Gibbs effect on the FO decisions.

Cerrato just managed the best draft the Skins have had in a decade or more. Not only did he keep all of his picks, but he traded down from #21 when no expert anywhere would have criticized him for simply drafting Devin Thomas at 21. Then when he got Thomas at 34 anyway, he didn't waiver from his draft board to reach for some ill-fitting player (Calais - not known as a pass rusher, Groves and Jones are more 3-4 OLB's) but instead took the best TE in the draft and another high quality big bodied WR.

So overall, you could say all three of his 2nd round picks were valued higher than where they were taken. In the NFL world of high priced free agents, any time you can add more picks (with lower salaries) by trading down and maximize the value of those picks by sticking to your draft board, you have accomplished something.

This never happened under Gibbs. We over-reached (according to some) for many players in the draft, including J. Campbell, ey, McIntosh who were all good players, but we traded up for all three of them and probably either did not need to or we gave up too much to get them.

So, maybe Cerrato was part of the problem before and he has just now seen the light and changed his ways OR Gibbs was bringing an old-school "Plan B" free agency strategy to an NFL that pays too much to its veteran free agents and penalizes any team who doesn't covet draft picks.

fleetus wrote:Could Gibbs have been part of the front office problems some of these past years? Now this could start some flaming in two different directions, so let me first say two things:

1) The front office has gotten better the past couple of years with Gibbs involved. We went from horrendous signings like Deion, Jeff George etc. to mixed bad/good acquisitions like AA, Lloyd, ARE, Springs, Marcus Washington, Fletcher and Andre Carter.

2) Our draft strategy during Gibbs tenure was very mixed, with lots of picks traded away and mediocre results with the picks we did have.

So I ask the question about Gibbs because I think he brought some of that old Beathard style to the FO, where draft picks weren't worth much and were often used to trade for veterans. I've defended Gibbs tooth and nail over the years. but now, after seeing this draft where Cerrato was in charge, I am re-thinking my stance on Gibbs effect on the FO decisions.

Cerrato just managed the best draft the Skins have had in a decade or more. Not only did he keep all of his picks, but he traded down from #21 when no expert anywhere would have criticized him for simply drafting Devin Thomas at 21. Then when he got Thomas at 34 anyway, he didn't waiver from his draft board to reach for some ill-fitting player (Calais - not known as a pass rusher, Groves and Jones are more 3-4 OLB's) but instead took the best TE in the draft and another high quality big bodied WR.

So overall, you could say all three of his 2nd round picks were valued higher than where they were taken. In the NFL world of high priced free agents, any time you can add more picks (with lower salaries) by trading down and maximize the value of those picks by sticking to your draft board, you have accomplished something.

This never happened under Gibbs. We over-reached (according to some) for many players in the draft, including J. Campbell, ey, McIntosh who were all good players, but we traded up for all three of them and probably either did not need to or we gave up too much to get them.

So, maybe Cerrato was part of the problem before and he has just now seen the light and changed his ways OR Gibbs was bringing an old-school "Plan B" free agency strategy to an NFL that pays too much to its veteran free agents and penalizes any team who doesn't covet draft picks.

It's impossible to tell because nobody knows exactly how the FO was structured when Gibbs was here. Cerrato and Snyder were behind the signings of guys like Bruce Smith and Deion and presided over some very poor drafts before Gibbs got here. We also know that it was GW that really wanted Archuletta. It was also a very, very poor free agent class and Danny and Vinny have both said that they haven't changed their strategy and are still willing to trade draft picks for players and pursue free agents. Going after Chad Johnson shows that their mentality hasn't changed all that much (if at all).

is there a reason why you posted the same thing 3 times? just wondering. Good thoughts though,

I was very excited when Joe Gibbs came back. I had these visions of Super Bowls, year after year after year. But then reality set in. I was relieved when he chose to retire as I did not want to see him fired. He has earned better than that.

I think that the game, at least the field/playing part of it, had passed Joe Gibbs by. He had yesterdays skills. The personnel part of it he still had right. Yes, he made mistakes but over-all he left the Redskins in better shape than when he got here. A good example is Brunell. He was an over-the-hill quarterback but he brought a stability to the team that was not there before. Jason Campbell inherited that stability.

Joe Gibbs can point to making the play-offs twice in four years. Not a bad accomplishment for any head coach, except the Joe Gibbs of yesterday.

When Joe Gibbs first came to the Redskins, he was the recipient of a team that had all of the right pieces. He took those pieces and put them together to make one of the greatest teams in football. When he left this time, I think he left a team with all of the right pieces. Now it is up to Zorn to put them together using todays football skills.

I wish him well and am glad he came back but I am also glad he left.

spudstr04 wrote:is there a reason why you posted the same thing 3 times? just wondering. Good thoughts though,

Sorry, I had a problem with my computer. Would one of the moderators please delete 1 of my duplicated posts?

Thank you.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

fleetus wrote:Could Gibbs have been part of the front office problems some of these past years? Now this could start some flaming in two different directions, so let me first say two things:

1) The front office has gotten better the past couple of years with Gibbs involved. We went from horrendous signings like Deion, Jeff George etc. to mixed bad/good acquisitions like AA, Lloyd, ARE, Springs, Marcus Washington, Fletcher and Andre Carter.

2) Our draft strategy during Gibbs tenure was very mixed, with lots of picks traded away and mediocre results with the picks we did have.

So I ask the question about Gibbs because I think he brought some of that old Beathard style to the FO, where draft picks weren't worth much and were often used to trade for veterans. I've defended Gibbs tooth and nail over the years. but now, after seeing this draft where Cerrato was in charge, I am re-thinking my stance on Gibbs effect on the FO decisions.

Cerrato just managed the best draft the Skins have had in a decade or more. Not only did he keep all of his picks, but he traded down from #21 when no expert anywhere would have criticized him for simply drafting Devin Thomas at 21. Then when he got Thomas at 34 anyway, he didn't waiver from his draft board to reach for some ill-fitting player (Calais - not known as a pass rusher, Groves and Jones are more 3-4 OLB's) but instead took the best TE in the draft and another high quality big bodied WR.

So overall, you could say all three of his 2nd round picks were valued higher than where they were taken. In the NFL world of high priced free agents, any time you can add more picks (with lower salaries) by trading down and maximize the value of those picks by sticking to your draft board, you have accomplished something.

This never happened under Gibbs. We over-reached (according to some) for many players in the draft, including J. Campbell, ey, McIntosh who were all good players, but we traded up for all three of them and probably either did not need to or we gave up too much to get them.

So, maybe Cerrato was part of the problem before and he has just now seen the light and changed his ways OR Gibbs was bringing an old-school "Plan B" free agency strategy to an NFL that pays too much to its veteran free agents and penalizes any team who doesn't covet draft picks.

It's impossible to tell because nobody knows exactly how the FO was structured when Gibbs was here. Cerrato and Snyder were behind the signings of guys like Bruce Smith and Deion and presided over some very poor drafts before Gibbs got here. We also know that it was GW that really wanted Archuletta. It was also a very, very poor free agent class and Danny and Vinny have both said that they haven't changed their strategy and are still willing to trade draft picks for players and pursue free agents. Going after Chad Johnson shows that their mentality hasn't changed all that much (if at all).

I'm sorry. Could you say that again?!?

It's also impossible to tell about the pre-Gibbs days under the Danny. Yes, Vinny was here, but how much did Snyder's meddling influence his decisions? How much decision making authority did he have? Who knows. Those poor decisions could have beenentirely Vinny's fault, but somehow I doubt it. It's also possible that Vinny after getting out of D.C. thought that the early approach was a good thing. But it seems that he has learned his lesson....and that is a good thing.

Still, it's one year and one draft that at this point (way too early to tell) that looks good. I'm very optimistic about this new way of doing business, but I'm reserving judgement until we get through one more offseason before I crown Vinny as a GM Extroidinare!

spudstr04 wrote:is there a reason why you posted the same thing 3 times? just wondering. Good thoughts though,

No idea what happened. Looks like the same thing happened to another poster also.

A good example is Brunell. He was an over-the-hill quarterback but he brought a stability to the team that was not there before. Jason Campbell inherited that stability.

I think that the decision to trade for Brunell was the single worst mistake that Gibbs made. We traded a 3rd rounder for an over-the-hill qb. We then had to trade up into the 3rd round to get ey. Had Gibbs just decided against acquiring Brunell (or at least waited until Jacksonville cut him) we could've ended up getting Matt Schaub and ey in the 3rd round, giving us a young qb and a better head start on finding a franchise qb.

Normally when I post a comment, I get a screen that asks if I want to reveiw the post or return to the discussion. I did not get that screen and thought I had not submitted it the first time.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

A good example is Brunell. He was an over-the-hill quarterback but he brought a stability to the team that was not there before. Jason Campbell inherited that stability.

I think that the decision to trade for Brunell was the single worst mistake that Gibbs made. We traded a 3rd rounder for an over-the-hill qb. We then had to trade up into the 3rd round to get ey. Had Gibbs just decided against acquiring Brunell (or at least waited until Jacksonville cut him) we could've ended up getting Matt Schaub and ey in the 3rd round, giving us a young qb and a better head start on finding a franchise qb.

I agree that the price was to high but at that time we had the end of the Spurrier experiment, which was preceeded by the Shottenheimer experiment which was preceeded by total disarray, not only on the field but in the FO. I don't think Schaub or any other young quarterback could have succeeded in that atmosphere.

Gibbs brought a stability that the team had lacked for several years. Brunnell may not have been a good quarterback anymore but he did bring leadership that helped form the personality that is now the Redskins.

CanesSkins26 wrote:

spudstr04 wrote:is there a reason why you posted the same thing 3 times? just wondering. Good thoughts though,

No idea what happened. Looks like the same thing happened to another poster also.

Post duplication just happens sometimes, usually a mod catches it before most people notice, though. Thanks for pointing it out.

aswas71788 wrote:

CanesSkins26 wrote:

A good example is Brunell. He was an over-the-hill quarterback but he brought a stability to the team that was not there before. Jason Campbell inherited that stability.

I think that the decision to trade for Brunell was the single worst mistake that Gibbs made. We traded a 3rd rounder for an over-the-hill qb. We then had to trade up into the 3rd round to get ey. Had Gibbs just decided against acquiring Brunell (or at least waited until Jacksonville cut him) we could've ended up getting Matt Schaub and ey in the 3rd round, giving us a young qb and a better head start on finding a franchise qb.

I agree that the price was to high but at that time we had the end of the Spurrier experiment, which was preceeded by the Shottenheimer experiment which was preceeded by total disarray, not only on the field but in the FO. I don't think Schaub or any other young quarterback could have succeeded in that atmosphere.

Gibbs brought a stability that the team had lacked for several years. Brunnell may not have been a good quarterback anymore but he did bring leadership that helped form the personality that is now the Redskins.

That's fine, but why trade for him? He was going to be cut by the Jags anyway. We could've signed Brunell as a free agent and then still drafted Schaub and had him sit and learn for a year or two.

And there really wasn't all that much stability with Brunell. He was replaced mid-season twice during his tenure here. He only played a full season once.

I totally agree with you on the acquisition of Brunell, just not making myself clear. As a player, he arguably was Gibbs worst mistake but as a stabilizing personality for the offense and team, he was successful. I am not trying to defend or blame Brunell. He is an example of an explanation of what happened to this team and why we are at the point we are now. If Zorn can put the pieces together, I think this will be a team that can win a Super Bowl (not this year though!) or two or more.

My point is that Joe Gibbs brought credibility, stability and direction to a Redskins team and FO that was seen as a joke to the rest of the NFL.

In my opinion, stability and direction was Joe Gibbs greatest contributions to the Redskins during his 4 years here. By just being here, he gave the team creditability. He was willing to risk his reputation to help the Redskins. That speaks loads about the character of the man.

Joe Gibbs was never a personnel man, he always had a GM and IMO he was not ready for handling a draft. Vinny at least had a job separate from the work involved in coaching and could make his full time goal scouting talent.

I think Vinny looked for value in trades. In situations where we had guys ranked on our board who got similar scores I think he looked for trades where we could just add more guys. I really don't think he had a specific plan all draft, still, some of his trades may prove out to work very well.

I think he gets too much credit though for landing Thomas in the second round. There is just NO way he knew Thomas would be available. It was sheer luck.

fleetus wrote:[color=darkred]

[b]Cerrato just managed the best draft the Skins have had in a decade or more. Not only did he keep all of his picks, but he traded down from #21 when no expert anywhere would have criticized him for simply drafting Devin Thomas at 21. Then when he got Thomas at 34 anyway, he didn't waiver from his draft board to reach for some ill-fitting player (Calais - not known as a pass rusher, Groves and Jones are more 3-4 OLB's) but instead took the best TE in the draft and another high quality big bodied WR.

How on Earth could you possibly know at this point that this is the 'best draft the Skins have had in a decade or more'? You CAN"T! It's WAY too early to talk about this year's draft being some kind of success. On the contrary, two of the three players we picked first we arguably don't even need. And given Cerrato/Snyder's drafting track record, which is mediocre at best, it's hardly a given that any of their picks THIS off-season will be any better than they have been, much less your apparent belief that they have already been proven to be adroit. Someone on this site posted a few months ago the FACT that the Redskins late round pick record has been among the least successful of ANY pro football team. Given Snyder's apparent continued meddling in personnel evaluation, I think it's most likely that continued failure is a more reasonable prediction than a sudden outbreak of brilliance.

This premature declaration of success seems to fit a pattern of fans on this site, who routinely crown the Redskins the huge winners of the off-season only to watch the team fail miserably the next REAL season. Then the pattern starts all over again next year.

Gibbs was never a personnel guy, he was and is a great offensive coach. His players were picked by Beathard, who always made sure that Gibbs had a great offensive line. All Gibbs's teams, and all Gibbs' greatest victories were built around a great offensive line. I don't think you should even discuss Gibbs' seasons in terms of his ability to make personnel decisions, because this was never his strength in the first place.

I disagree that it's too early to label the draft any kind of success.

It's true that we don't know exactly how the players will perform, but based on value perceived at the time, and how we accrued picks throughout the draft you can say it's successful, and encouraging for the future.

My point is that Joe Gibbs brought credibility, stability and direction to a Redskins team and FO that was seen as a joke to the rest of the NFL.

In my opinion, stability and direction was Joe Gibbs greatest contributions to the Redskins during his 4 years here. By just being here, he gave the team creditability. He was willing to risk his reputation to help the Redskins. That speaks loads about the character of the man.

I misunderstood you a little bit. Agree 100% with what you wrote above.

old-timer wrote:

fleetus wrote:[color=darkred]

[b]Cerrato just managed the best draft the Skins have had in a decade or more. Not only did he keep all of his picks, but he traded down from #21 when no expert anywhere would have criticized him for simply drafting Devin Thomas at 21. Then when he got Thomas at 34 anyway, he didn't waiver from his draft board to reach for some ill-fitting player (Calais - not known as a pass rusher, Groves and Jones are more 3-4 OLB's) but instead took the best TE in the draft and another high quality big bodied WR.

How on Earth could you possibly know at this point that this is the 'best draft the Skins have had in a decade or more'? You CAN"T! It's WAY too early to talk about this year's draft being some kind of success. On the contrary, two of the three players we picked first we arguably don't even need. And given Cerrato/Snyder's drafting track record, which is mediocre at best, it's hardly a given that any of their picks THIS off-season will be any better than they have been, much less your apparent belief that they have already been proven to be adroit. Someone on this site posted a few months ago the FACT that the Redskins late round pick record has been among the least successful of ANY pro football team. Given Snyder's apparent continued meddling in personnel evaluation, I think it's most likely that continued failure is a more reasonable prediction than a sudden outbreak of brilliance.

This premature declaration of success seems to fit a pattern of fans on this site, who routinely crown the Redskins the huge winners of the off-season only to watch the team fail miserably the next REAL season. Then the pattern starts all over again next year.

Gibbs was never a personnel guy, he was and is a great offensive coach. His players were picked by Beathard, who always made sure that Gibbs had a great offensive line. All Gibbs's teams, and all Gibbs' greatest victories were built around a great offensive line. I don't think you should even discuss Gibbs' seasons in terms of his ability to make personnel decisions, because this was never his strength in the first place.

100% correct on all poimts!

I will say this Vinny has been bashed non-stop for as long as I have been on this board. From the stuff I've read quoting other GMs around the league over the years he is a very respected front office guy. He was part of the group in S.F. that won super bowls.

I agree that it is too early to tell, but heck I can't imagine that these draft picks will be worse than Westbrook, Howard, Shuler, Ramsey and countless other guys that lasted as long as a fart in the wind.

The Skins seem to have turned a corner in FO philosophy and that is due in no small part to the guidance & teachings of J.J. Gibbs. For that I am for ever thankful. We the fans will be the beneficiaries.

Well Gibbs had the power to do most anything with the Redskins when he was here in his second tenure. Problems? Well it was not perfect when he came back but he brought back some stability. He laid a foundation and left the team in good shape.

Playcalling was not what we wanted at times. Some of the players aquired were busts like Lloyd etc.. Overall he still did a good job. I am happy with what he did for us.

fleetus wrote:Could Gibbs have been part of the front office problems some of these past years?

Joe Gibbs never met a veteran he would cut or a draft pick he wouldn't trade for a veteran. Any true Redskins fan thinks the world of Joe Gibbs. And Dan Snyder, if nothing else, is a true Redskins fan. So, if Gibbs said he wanted anything, Snyder would not only have listened but would have said, "How high would you like me to jump?" I think we know Dan Snyder jumps for no one else. Gibbs is an excellent coach and a better man. But he is not now, nor has he ever been a personnel expert. Without Bobby Beathard, there would have been no Hogs, no Fun Bunch, no Posse, no Darrell Green.

In my opinion, the error by the front office was in bringing back the majority of the Gibbs coaching staff from the glory days, but overlooking the front office staff from the glory days. Both parts were equally important to the Washington Redskins that Dan Snyder remembers and was trying to recreate.

Another problem with the JG 2.0 era was that he didn't have full control of the offense b/c of his high powered offensive coordinator. He wanted to hand over the reigns, but couldn't let go. That was another issue in itself) OT from the original post, but relavent to where the discussion went).

VetSkinsFan wrote:Another problem with the JG 2.0 era was that he didn't have full control of the offense b/c of his high powered offensive coordinator. He wanted to hand over the reigns, but couldn't let go. That was another issue in itself) OT from the original post, but relavent to where the discussion went).

That simply is not true. Gibbs had as close to full control of the offense as he wanted, Saunders was not "high powered" in that coaching hierarchy

old-timer wrote:

fleetus wrote:[color=darkred]

[b]Cerrato just managed the best draft the Skins have had in a decade or more. Not only did he keep all of his picks, but he traded down from #21 when no expert anywhere would have criticized him for simply drafting Devin Thomas at 21. Then when he got Thomas at 34 anyway, he didn't waiver from his draft board to reach for some ill-fitting player (Calais - not known as a pass rusher, Groves and Jones are more 3-4 OLB's) but instead took the best TE in the draft and another high quality big bodied WR.

How on Earth could you possibly know at this point that this is the 'best draft the Skins have had in a decade or more'? You CAN"T! It's WAY too early to talk about this year's draft being some kind of success. On the contrary, two of the three players we picked first we arguably don't even need. And given Cerrato/Snyder's drafting track record, which is mediocre at best, it's hardly a given that any of their picks THIS off-season will be any better than they have been, much less your apparent belief that they have already been proven to be adroit. Someone on this site posted a few months ago the FACT that the Redskins late round pick record has been among the least successful of ANY pro football team. Given Snyder's apparent continued meddling in personnel evaluation, I think it's most likely that continued failure is a more reasonable prediction than a sudden outbreak of brilliance.

This premature declaration of success seems to fit a pattern of fans on this site, who routinely crown the Redskins the huge winners of the off-season only to watch the team fail miserably the next REAL season. Then the pattern starts all over again next year.

Gibbs was never a personnel guy, he was and is a great offensive coach. His players were picked by Beathard, who always made sure that Gibbs had a great offensive line. All Gibbs's teams, and all Gibbs' greatest victories were built around a great offensive line. I don't think you should even discuss Gibbs' seasons in terms of his ability to make personnel decisions, because this was never his strength in the first place.

You're getting a little carried away on a simple point. Yeah we all know that it takes a few years to see how a player pans out. I'm simply talking about Cerrato keeping all 9 of his picks and trading down to maximize the value of those picks and adding a 10th pick in the process. All three of those things are a rarity at Redskins park. Come on, we have had the fewest draft picks of any NFL team since 2000! Not to mention, based on most experts' grades, we got exceptional talent for not having drafted anyone before #34. So for now, it appears we've done well. Of course, anything can happen after the draft, that is life. Malcolm Kelly could blow his knee out the first day of camp and the story will change.

But, at least as far as draft strategy and front office strategy goes, it appears to be one of the best series of moves in recent memory. (I wonder how serious the Fo REALLY was about trading those picks for Chad Johnson. Thank God that didn't happen!) EVEN if all of these picks don't pan out, if we continue using this strategy every year, the Redskins will turn the corner and be a playoff team regularly, IMO.

SkinsHead56 wrote:I will say this Vinny has been bashed non-stop for as long as I have been on this board. From the stuff I've read quoting other GMs around the league over the years he is a very respected front office guy. He was part of the group in S.F. that won super bowls.

I agree that it is too early to tell, but heck I can't imagine that these draft picks will be worse than Westbrook, Howard, Shuler, Ramsey and countless other guys that lasted as long as a fart in the wind.

The Skins seem to have turned a corner in FO philosophy and that is due in no small part to the guidance & teachings of J.J. Gibbs. For that I am for ever thankful. We the fans will be the beneficiaries.

I agree. This is part of why I started this thread. I have bashed Vinny several times. I think he and Dan were easier targets for my outrage than Joe because I've always idolized Joe. Now I'm sheepishly wondering, could Vinny have been a pretty good personnel guy all along and just never really given enough control or draft picks to do it with? If so, then we have to consider that the combo of Joe and Dan as the power brokers in the FO was the main problem. A coach who loved veteran players and an owner who had no problem flying in his private jet to write big signing bonus checks.