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Fundamental Latter-Day Saints

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:38 pm
by GSPODS
Distinctive doctrines

Plural marriage and the law of placing
The FLDS Church teaches the doctrine of plural marriage, which states that a man having multiple wives is ordained by God and is a requirement for a man to receive the highest form of salvation. It is generally believed in the church that a man should have a minimum of three wives to fulfill this requirement.[37] Connected with this doctrine is the concept that wives are required to be subordinate to their husbands.

The church currently practices the law of placing, whereby a young woman of marriageable age is assigned a husband by revelation from God to the leader of the church, who is regarded as a prophet.[38] The prophet elects to take and give wives to and from men according to their worthiness. Wives may be taken from one man and reassigned to men that are more worthy.

Dress code
All members of the church are required to abide by a strict dress code. In general, women are forbidden to cut their hair or to wear makeup, trousers or any skirt above the knees. Men are usually seen wearing plain clothing, usually a collared shirt and trousers. Men and women do not have any tattoos or body piercings. Women and girls usually wear solid-color homemade long-sleeved dresses, between ankle and mid-calf, and long stockings, keeping their hair coiffed.[39]

Property ownership
The FLDS Church also prevents its members from owning real estate and other property. The land and houses occupied by the FLDS Church are owned by the United Effort Plan (UEP), a subsidiary organization of the church. The UEP also owns most businesses that are controlled by FLDS Church members. The church views this "United Order" as a means of living the traditional Latter Day Saint doctrine of the "Law of Consecration". The Attorney General of Utah has filed a lawsuit in an attempt to protect the holdings of the UEP for the current residents of Colorado City and Hildale. The Attorney General is seeking to have the assets of the UEP reassigned to the FLDS Church members. The UEP has been frozen by court order pending a resolution of the lawsuit.[citation needed]

Home schooling
In 2000, the Colorado City Unified School District had more than 1200 students. When Jeffs ordered FLDS Church members to pull their children out of public schools, the number declined to around 250.[40]

Temple worship
The FLDS Church is the fifth Latter Day Saint denomination to have built a temple.[41]

Criticisms of the church

Plural marriage

A view of the FLDS ranch in Eldorado, Texas

At the time of his death, church leader Rulon Jeffs was confirmed to have married 22 women and fathered more than 60 children, although some[42] have suggested that he had close to 75 wives. Current estimates also state that Warren Jeffs may have upwards of 60 wives.[42] Critics of this lifestyle say that its practice inevitably leads to bride shortages and likely to child marriages, incest, and child abuse.[citation needed]

It has been reported that the FLDS Church has recently excommunicated over 400 teenage boys, some as young as 13, for offenses such as dating and listening to rock music. Former members claim that the real reason for these excommunications is that there are not enough women for each male to receive three or more wives. Six such teenage boys have filed a conspiracy lawsuit against Jeffs and Sam Barlow, a former Mohave County deputy sheriff and close associate of Jeffs, for a "systematic excommunication" of young men to reduce competition for wives.[43][44]

Critics claim that some members of the church are violating laws (because polygamy is illegal in the United States) when they participate in polygamy.[45] Critics claim that incest and sexual abuse of children are prevalent among church members.[46][47][48]

Race
In its Spring 2005 "Intelligence Report," the Southern Poverty Law Center named the FLDS Church to its "hate group" listing[49] because of the church's teachings on race, which include a fierce condemnation of interracial relationships. Warren Jeffs has said, "the black race is the people through which the devil has always been able to bring evil unto the earth."[50]

Blood atonement
Former FLDS Church member Robert Richter reported to the Phoenix New Times that Warren Jeffs has repeatedly alluded to the nineteenth century Mormon teaching of "blood atonement" in church sermons. Under the doctrine of blood atonement, certain serious sins can only be atoned for by the sinner's death. Richter also claims that he was asked to design a thermostat for a high-temperature furnace that would be capable of destroying DNA evidence if such "atonements" were to take place.[51]

Birth defects
The Colorado City/Hildale area has the world's highest incidence of fumarase deficiency,[52] an extremely rare genetic condition which causes severe mental retardation. Geneticists attribute this to the prevalence of cousin marriage between descendants of two of the town's founders, Joseph Smith Jessup and John Yeates Barlow; one local historian reports that 75–80 percent of the double-communities' roughly 10,000 inhabitants are descended from one or both of these men
[citation needed]

LDS vs FLDS
The LDS Church has repeatedly emphasized that it is in no way affiliated with the FLDS Church.[53]

Plural Marriage? Is it freedom of religion or polygamy? Does the Constitutional right to freedom of religion outweigh the federal and state laws outlawing plural marriage? I would say the Constitution outweighs state law. The law would say that Federal is superior to State law, except where state law is stricter. In this case, state law is equally strict to federal law. Illegal still means illegal.

Subordination of Wives to Husbands? Freedom of religion? If you asked my wife, the response would be in the form of insubordination of my soon-to-be ex-wife. For these purposes, there is no law for or against the religious practice of subordination. If BDSM is acceptable practice, this would seem to be. I, for the record, disagree with the practice but I am also not a member of this "Church."

Placing women of "marriagable age?" Could we get a FLDS definition of marriagable age? I hope it isn't the Jerry Lee Lewis definition. Freedom of religion? Does state law regarding legal marriage age matter? Can parents sign a waiver as they can in several other states?

Dress Code? Freedom of religion and freedom of expression. I can't see much discussion here unless we also want to question the Amish community.

No Right to Property? I think we have a winner. Clear and convincing evidence of the purposeful denial of a Constitutional right.

No right to free enterprise? Another probable winner, although the right to pursuit of property clause was more definitive than is the right to the pursuit of happiness in this particular question.

Excommunication? Let's ask the Catholics. Is being excommunicated from this and then being able to date and listen to rock music such a bad thing?
Excommunication itself is strictly a religious practice. I see no argument.

Racism? It exists regardless of the FLDS. More Arian Brotherhood garbage, only from a different source. I suppose the FLDS overlooked the obvious fact that Jesus could not have been Caucasian. He, in all likelihood, was rather dark-skinned. So, does this mean they consider Jesus inferior and a carrier of the Devil's evil?

Blood Atonement? Freedom of religion or Salem Witch Trails reincarnated?
Killing is wrong by both the religious and the legal definitions. I really have a hard time crediting this practice to freedom of religion.

Incest and Inbreeding? Freedom of religion? The mental retardation seemed rather obvious on the basis of these practices being not only accepted but outright encouraged by the FLDS. While considered disgusting beyond all reason by most people, there is no federal basis for laws against these practices. State law, and the People collectively, have determined these practices have to go. I'm on this bandwagon.

Are these people cultist religious zealots, cultist religious communists, or simply communists? Who thinks what about the FLDS?

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:35 pm
by Countertrey
I have no doubt that someone will totally lose sight of the context of this reply... it will happen.


Where does the Constitution ban the practice of polygamy? It does not, nor do I see where the Constitution would permit the Federal government to declare an interest in seeing this as illegal. I absolutely concede that the several States have that "right", but I fail to understand how the Feds can claim it.

I would dispute that reference to "incest and sexual abuse of children" has any relationship to polygamy, beyond confirming that members of the cult are perverted scum, who do not deserve any consideration.

I have no problem defining this "sect" as a cult. It is clearly driven by the narcisistic need of a few elders to have their carnal way with a broad swath of women who are stupid enough to fall for their confidence schemes. They are evil men, no doubt, who are worthy of contempt. What makes it my business, however, or that of my government, to dictate how those people live their lives, beyond the imposition on the rights of others.

The Constitution seems to be silent on stupidity. Morality, drugs, risky behavior, whatever. Be stupid. Despite the knee-jerk need of liberals to dictate risk aversion, and of the far right to dictate morality, it is your right to be stupid.


Race
In its Spring 2005 "Intelligence Report," the Southern Poverty Law Center named the FLDS Church to its "hate group" listing[49] because of the church's teachings on race, which include a fierce condemnation of interracial relationships. Warren Jeffs has said, "the black race is the people through which the devil has always been able to bring evil unto the earth."


These are despicable people. The law does not, nor can it, ban racist thought or speech. Again, actions which violate the rights of others remain within the realm of the interest of government. Make threats, intimidate others, destroy property, assault, bully, or harm others, and the government may act. You may not legislate against stupidity.

Birth defects
The Colorado City/Hildale area has the world's highest incidence of fumarase deficiency,[52] an extremely rare genetic condition which causes severe mental retardation. Geneticists attribute this to the prevalence of cousin marriage between descendants of two of the town's founders, Joseph Smith Jessup and John Yeates Barlow; one local historian reports that 75–80 percent of the double-communities' roughly 10,000 inhabitants are descended from one or both of these men[citation needed]


Boy, just imagine where a conversation about eugenics could go...

No Right to Property? I think we have a winner. Clear and convincing evidence of the purposeful denial of a Constitutional right.


I think you DO NOT have a winner... as long as individuals have the right to claim that they have "gifted" their property, and, in fact, make that statement, there is no violation of any law. Any individual who wishes to claim they were coerced, blackmailed, brainwashed, extorted, is certainly free to see redress in the courts.



Bottom line... I think the FLDS are a cult, led by the typical sociopathic and self-serving "elders" as any other cult. There seems to be some evidence that there is institutional abuse, sexual and probably physical/emotional of children. There are appropriate avenues to address this legally, as these are not protected by any freedoms granted by the Constitution.

As one who believes what the framers stated when and after they wrote the Constitution, that it is the states and individuals who have the vast bulk of rights, that the "rights" of the Federal government are extremely limited, and are clearly defined within the Constitution and it's amendments. Clearly defined means that there is no interpretation required... if the Constitution does not say it, the right belongs to the individual, unless the state has claimed it for itself.

I do not see where the Constitution defines a Federal interest in dictating monogamy, just as I do not see where the Constitution defines a Federal interest in banning street drugs (a fact tacitly acknowledged when, in order to ban Alcohol, an amendment was required). Again, the Federal government has no Constitutional authority to legislate against stupidity.

Every eroded right just adds to the pile. We will soon have none.

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:53 pm
by GSPODS
Countertrey wrote:
No Right to Property? I think we have a winner. Clear and convincing evidence of the purposeful denial of a Constitutional right.


I think you DO NOT have a winner... as long as individuals have the right to claim that they have "gifted" their property, and, in fact, make that statement, there is no violation of any law. Any individual who wishes to claim they were coerced, blackmailed, brainwashed, extorted, is certainly free to see redress in the courts.

Every eroded right just adds to the pile. We will soon have none.


Several former FLDS members already have filed lawsuit against the FLDS regarding the coercive theft of both property and businesses. The case is currently pending a court date.

The Attorney General of Utah has filed a lawsuit in an attempt to protect the holdings of the UEP for the current residents of Colorado City and Hildale. The Attorney General is seeking to have the assets of the UEP reassigned to the FLDS Church members. The UEP has been frozen by court order pending a resolution of the lawsuit.

I fully agree with most of your post. The Constitutional rights far outweigh the federal or state laws, and the majority of these items are, in fact, protected rights of freedom of religion.

The reason for this thread is that most of these are moral issues, not legal issues. I was curious to see other people's stances on these issues.
I assume we won't have another Waco, Texas / David Koresh situation with the FLDS but with the Feds you never can be certain.

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:35 pm
by Countertrey
I assume we won't have another Waco, Texas / David Koresh situation with the FLDS but with the Feds you never can be certain.


I think that has more to do with the liklihood that the FLDS are cowardly pedophiles than anything else...