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Redskins now in the West coast O
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:48 pm
by por-tiz2skins
The Redskins are expected to go with a full fledged West Coast offense under new coordinator Jim Zorn.
While Zorn has a history of success with QBs, the Redskins are taking a big gamble here. Jason Campbell finally began to grasp Al Saunders' vertical attack before getting hurt in 2007. The West Coast offense deals with words, while Saunders' used numbers, so the language will be totally different. Campbell will be learning his eighth different offense in his past ten years.
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/player ... ?sport=NFL
I think Jason Campbell well be alot better this year in making decisions and having a better accurate long bomb pass.I hope JC gets a pro-bowl this year.
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:09 pm
by CanesSkins26
Well the problem with this is that we don't have a qb that fits the traditional "West Coast" system or the wide receivers to run it. I would think/hope that Zorn would adapt his system to fit his qb and the receivers that he has.
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:22 pm
by SkinsFreak
First, I don't believe this report from "rotoworld" that it will be a full fledged west coast offense. Second, Campbell having learned so many different systems isn't such a bad thing. While Saunders system may have been numbers, most systems are designed around words, and there's only so many ways to call a slant pattern or a post pattern. So it's not like Jason has been speaking English his whole life and now has to learn Chinese. That notion is a complete exaggeration. Campbell is a well versed QB and this type of offense will actually be easier to learn than Saunders' system.
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:27 pm
by SkinsFreak
CanesSkins26 wrote:Well the problem with this is that we don't have a qb that fits the traditional "West Coast" system or the wide receivers to run it. I would think/hope that Zorn would adapt his system to fit his qb and the receivers that he has.
Don't give me this crap about having the right kind of receivers. Receivers run routes and catch balls. Are you telling me that a guy who's been running fly patterns or deep outs can't run a slant or a hook pattern, and can't all of a sudden catch a football? Right. Yes, they may want to add a bigger possession receiver, but we've needed one of those guys for years. And do you have any idea what type of systems Campbell was running at Auburn?
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:34 pm
by Skinsfan55
SkinsFreak wrote:Don't give me this crap about having the right kind of receivers. Receivers run routes and catch balls. Are you telling me that a guy who's been running fly patterns or deep outs can't run a slant or a hook pattern, and can't all of a sudden catch a football? Right. Yes, they may want to add a bigger possession receiver, but we've needed one of those guys for years. And do you have any idea what type of systems Campbell was running at Auburn?
Do you understand football at all?
There are various systems that teams employ to gain yardage... and teams search for the correct players to carry out these systems.
If it was just a matter of talent versus talent then those star studded Redskins teams of the late 90's would have won multiple Superbowls eh?
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:59 pm
by joebagadonuts
CanesSkins26 wrote:Well the problem with this is that we don't have a qb that fits the traditional "West Coast" system or the wide receivers to run it. I would think/hope that Zorn would adapt his system to fit his qb and the receivers that he has.
Really? I would think that Campbell would do well in a West Coast offense. The receivers, on the other hand, I would agree with. Maybe we can trade a first round pick for a washed up receiver in his last year of a contract...?
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:20 am
by CanesSkins26
SkinsFreak wrote:CanesSkins26 wrote:Well the problem with this is that we don't have a qb that fits the traditional "West Coast" system or the wide receivers to run it. I would think/hope that Zorn would adapt his system to fit his qb and the receivers that he has.
Don't give me this crap about having the right kind of receivers. Receivers run routes and catch balls. Are you telling me that a guy who's been running fly patterns or deep outs can't run a slant or a hook pattern, and can't all of a sudden catch a football? Right. Yes, they may want to add a bigger possession receiver, but we've needed one of those guys for years. And do you have any idea what type of systems Campbell was running at Auburn?
West coast offense requires a qb to make
- quick decisions
- quickly get rid of the ball
- accurately throw the ball to his receivers
Now based on what we saw from JC this season, do these sound like attributes that JC possesses? I'm a huge JC fan (just ask Ray N Austin) and I think that he can improve his accuracy (it went up from year 1 to year 2), but I'm not sure that there is much that he can do about his slow release and he still needs to work on reading defenses quicker.
As for the receivers, they don't fit a west coast O. In the west coast you have a lot of short throws that are designed to allow the wr to gain yards after the catch. Which receivers on our roster are capable of taking a 3 yard slant and turning it into a huge gain? Which of our receivers are able to break tackles on a consistent basis?
Here is a pretty solid breakdown of the west coast offense by position. Explain to me how you see JC, Moss, and ARE fitting into this type of offense?
http://www.kffl.com/article.php/73828/488
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:49 am
by por-tiz2skins
CanesSkins26 wrote:SkinsFreak wrote:CanesSkins26 wrote:Well the problem with this is that we don't have a qb that fits the traditional "West Coast" system or the wide receivers to run it. I would think/hope that Zorn would adapt his system to fit his qb and the receivers that he has.
Don't give me this crap about having the right kind of receivers. Receivers run routes and catch balls. Are you telling me that a guy who's been running fly patterns or deep outs can't run a slant or a hook pattern, and can't all of a sudden catch a football? Right. Yes, they may want to add a bigger possession receiver, but we've needed one of those guys for years. And do you have any idea what type of systems Campbell was running at Auburn?
West coast offense requires a qb to make
- quick decisions
- quickly get rid of the ball
- accurately throw the ball to his receivers
Now based on what we saw from JC this season, do these sound like attributes that JC possesses? I'm a huge JC fan (just ask Ray N Austin) and I think that he can improve his accuracy (it went up from year 1 to year 2), but I'm not sure that there is much that he can do about his slow release and he still needs to work on reading defenses quicker.
As for the receivers, they don't fit a west coast O. In the west coast you have a lot of short throws that are designed to allow the wr to gain yards after the catch. Which receivers on our roster are capable of taking a 3 yard slant and turning it into a huge gain? Which of our receivers are able to break tackles on a consistent basis?
Here is a pretty solid breakdown of the west coast offense by position. Explain to me how you see JC, Moss, and ARE fitting into this type of offense?
http://www.kffl.com/article.php/73828/488
I belive JC can do all that.He has all the tools but hasn't unleashed his full potential.See they say Al was that good but in reality Green never did nothing .He was an ok QB with a good running game and that was it.Not first things first JC is still pretty young .We need to run the ball first than see how JC does.Frankly i believe this West Coast O well develop our young QB faster.
I belive in Zorn doing his job on JC
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:50 am
by absinthe1023
SkinsFreak wrote:First, I don't believe this report from "rotoworld" that it will be a full fledged west coast offense.
Amen. This is most likely another classic case of jumping the gun. I've heard it said many times that Zorn did not run a West Coast offense at USU while he was the coordinator there. I couldn't find that in print anywhere, however. I even checked the USU football homepage for the stats from the 1992-1994 era, but the archives there only go back to 2002. I do know that USU won its first and only bowl game in its history, the 1993 Las Vegas Bowl, by a score of 42-33 over Ball State while Zorn was the OC.
Maybe we, as fans, ought to wait for Zorn's first in-depth interview /presser before jumping to conclusions on the type of offense he will employ...
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:16 am
by Hog Heaven
CanesSkins26 wrote:Here is a pretty solid breakdown of the west coast offense by position. Explain to me how you see JC, Moss, and ARE fitting into this type of offense?
http://www.kffl.com/article.php/73828/488
You are right about JC, but not the WRs. If you read to the end of the article, it talks about 3 different WR positions in the west coast offense. Yes, neither of them can play split end, but either could play flanker or slot. In fact, I think they would be ideal for those positions. Also, Portis and
ey should thrive in a West coast offense. We all know how Portis loved the zone blocking system in Denver, and how he can catch out of the backfield and block. As for
ey, he can run good routes, catch great, and break tackles for good YAC. The system actually downplays his weakness in blocking. Only JC seems to look out of place with such a system, but he's young and should be able to adjust well and by Mid-season at the latest surpass where he was this past season. He's a smart guy. Just young.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:26 am
by ComebackSkins
how do you guys think this will affect Buges? Has he ever had to teach zone blocking? I dont know much about that, but it sounds like he doesnt.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:33 am
by por-tiz2skins
ComebackSkins wrote:how do you guys think this will affect Buges? Has he ever had to teach zone blocking? I dont know much about that, but it sounds like he doesnt.
Ya,but still our OL sucked last year.So hes a quick guy he'll get it done.To be honest we could be a 6-10 team next year (and still beat the shehawks) but by 09 well be a superbowl team.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:36 am
by Hog Heaven
Zone blocking is easy for the linemen to run. Basically its everyone go in this direction at this angle and block the 1st guy you run into. Its simplicity is what makes it effective. The difficult part is for the RB to find where the hole will open up... so the coach you should be asking about is Byner. Of course, since Portis has already run this type of offense, Byner's job should be easy with him, but IDK how Betts or Cartwright will adjust.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:22 am
by CanesSkins26
Cerrato, whose NFL upbringing came in San Francisco in the early '90s, is tied to the West Coast Offense. He and Snyder have already hired Jim Zorn, a West Coast disciple of Mike Holmgren, as offensive coordinator. So for all the talk of continuity, stability, whatever, where it matters most - on the offensive side, with the kid QB Jason Campbell - this is anything but continuity if they go this route. It's yet another new system, like JC's eighth in the past 10 years. If they install the West Coast offense - and that seems obvious to football people withthe Zorn hiring - then Cerrato has already ushered in a major philosophical change, no matter who the next head coach is. (If they hire Jim Fassel he was roomates with Holmgren in college and worked at Stanfard for four years right after Bill Walsh, Godfather of the WCO, left, teaching John Elway the system there. Zorn was Fassel's top choice as OC).
Joe Gibbs and Al Saunders are products of the Don Coryell tree and Walsh - the man who first brought glory to the 49ers - is the other prominent tree, the West Coast tree. (Gregg Williams wanted to keep Saunders as OC - he had back-up plans, including Zorn, but Al was his first choice for the good of Campbell, league sources said. He would have made Al focus more and curtail his legendary 700-page playbook, rather than force Campbell to start all over again.)
"These are opposite systems," said one former coach who worked in both systems during his coaching career. "Coryell is a number-based system, there are different principles. The West Cast offense is all word-based, it's terminology. It's all word-based now. Campbell's learning another new language, and this can be a long process. It's all rote memorization."
In reality, the Redskins have already set Campbell's development back, as he was making good strides in his former system. We're talking major, major change. (JC's best year at Auburn came under West Coast OC Al Borges, but the precision and quickness required to execute this in the NFL will be one of the major subplots to the OTAs and mini camps).
"The West Coast offense is a short, quick, very accurate passing game," the NFL exec said. "Coryell is a vertical, deep game. Campbell has a long delivery. He's a longer type guy (6-5) and when you think of the QBs that are most successful in the West Coast offense, you think more of guys who are 6-2, scramblers like McNabb, Garcia, Young. Quick-footed guys. Campbell's long, he can run but he's not really a scrambler. Whereas Gibbs/Coryell is a vertical, stretch, pocket-passing game. Their franchise quarterback is at risk, my friend."
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/01/a_new_era.html#more
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:47 am
by HEROHAMO
Jason Campbell can be a very good West Coast offense QB.
He is able to scramble just like Young and Montana. He does not have a quick release but he does have a cannon for an arm. Our line is not your typical west coast offense either. Denvers line is your ideal O line for a west coast offense. I wonder how Buges will adjust with the new offense? I have a feeling Portis will thrive with a new system in place.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:41 am
by RayNAustin
CanesSkins, you're not going to believe this, but I agree with you about Campbell! Hahaha
But, on the other hand, this may be just what Campbell needs. He did show that he did best with the no huddle offense. He's going to have to speed up his reads for sure, but maybe if he isn't bogged down with a complex play book, he can just play and react? I think part of what hurt him was 2 receiver sets....spread that offense and put more targets out there for him and he may excell.
But I disagree with the receivers thing. Moss, Randle El are both small quick guys that can make yac with their speed, and CC is a beast after the catch. Betts is an excellent pass catching back, and Portis will run much better from the spread.
Get ready for some potential fireworks.....hopfully the defense will maintain the same effectiveness.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:31 am
by SkinsJock
..Maybe we ought to wait for Zorn's first in-depth interview /presser before jumping to conclusions on the type of offense he will employ...
OH no!
Not around here!
While there are some that will understand what is happening there are a lot of posters here who think that they can influence what our HC and his assistants will do - the difference between the predictions and reality here is part of the reason we all keep coming back for more.
There is an unwritten rule not to go back and show posters how horribly out of touch they were on certain topics (well it's almost always followed
)
We would all look like the 2 bozos running this team if the team took the advice that sometimes leaps out of some of these posts.
On a slightly different tack - I do not go to any other Redskins' fan site - no need to - IF there were anything decent there it probably came from here anyway
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:09 pm
by Gnome
If this comes to pass it's just another step in a completely insane direction. The offense was clicking towards the end of the year. And it wasn't the offense, it was the play calling that hamstrung them in the 2nd half of the games they lost last year. So blowing it up and forcing the tired, predictable old west coast garbage on a team designed to play air-coreyell is just another indicator that the Skins and headed into another stretch of 6-10 seasons. Snyder is an idiot.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:25 pm
by skinsfan#33
I don't think Campbell is a good fit for the "West Coast" offense because his flaws are what you need for strenths in A WC QB.
- he takes too long to decide what he is going to do with the ball
- that leads to him being late on timing
- his accuracy is questional because of the above
- combine that with his natural slow release
- and his poor decision making skills
Campbell was a much better fit for the Gibbs' system, not as much Al's system, but even worse fit for a WC system.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:06 pm
by El Mexican
skinsfan#33 wrote:I don't think Campbell is a good fit for the "West Coast" offense because his flaws are what you need for strenths in A WC QB.
- he takes too long to decide what he is going to do with the ball
- that leads to him being late on timing
- his accuracy is questional because of the above
- combine that with his natural slow release
- and his poor decision making skills
Campbell was a much better fit for the Gibbs' system, not as much Al's system, but even worse fit for a WC system.
I totaly agree with you Skinsfan33.
Remember when Richie Petitbon became HC? He tried to install a short-pass oriented offense. It soon became very clear that Mark Rypien was not the best QB for that system.
I suspect the same thing will happen with JC. Don´t get me wrong, I love JC and believe him extremely smart and gifted. I just don´t "see" him in a West Coast type offense with that long wind up and his problems with "touch" passes.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:51 pm
by aswas71788
skinsfan#33 wrote:- he takes too long to decide what he is going to do with the ball
- that leads to him being late on timing
- his accuracy is questional because of the above
- combine that with his natural slow release
- and his poor decision making skills
Gee, I remember them saying the exact same things about Heath Shuler.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:37 pm
by Fios
I'm stunned by the number of professional scouts who visit this site. And people wonder why I stay away during the off-season.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:25 pm
by SkinsJock
Fios wrote:I'm stunned by the number of professional scouts who visit this site. And people wonder why I stay away during the off-season.
I'm also concerned that some of them may actually be working for Cerrato and the new guy, that works with him, Campbell
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:48 pm
by Countertrey
Fios wrote:I'm stunned by the number of professional scouts who visit this site. And people wonder why I stay away during the off-season.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:14 pm
by langleyparkjoe
lmao@fios
Jus for the record, IMO, our WR corp doesn't seem to be ready to go over the middle alot for a true west coast style offense. Just my opinion though, I could be wrong. What do I know? I'm the guy that plays Madden and gets beat 52-7.. no wait.. wait.. oops..
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