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Ten Reasons for Optimism

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:49 am
by Snout
1. Continuity is Overrated. Remember Richie Petibon?

2. Hiring Williams as Head Coach is not "Real" Continuity Anyway. The only time that you build on continuity when hiring an assitant to replace a departing head coach is when the replacement comes from the same mold as the mentor. That is not the case here. Gibbs and Williams had very different styles and very different personalities. Gibbs was an offense guy and Williams is a defense guy. Even if Williams stayed, there would be a lot of changes -- probably almost as many as hiring an outsider.

3. Continuity is More Important on Offense Anyway. Even if the team promoted Williams, everyone says that Williams and Saunders are like oil and vinegar. Saunders was bound to leave. That means that Campbell would be learning a new offense anyway -- even if the team opted for "continuity".

4. Jason will be Better Off Without Continuity. It will be a good thing to shake things up, at least on the offensive side of the ball. Jason never really fit with the Saunders philosophy. His natural skill set does not fit with the Saunders "quick-read-timing-is-everything" mentality. If the QB cannot easily confirm to the OC, maybe it is good to have an OC who can adjust his schemes to fit the strength of the QB

5. Fassel is a Winner. He hasn't won the big game, but at least he has been there. That is more than we can say for Williams.

6. The Owner likes Fassel. Regardless of what you think of Snyder as an owner, there is no disputing that an NFL team runs better in the long run when the owner and the coach see eye to eye and are comfortable working together. Fassel was a favorite before Gibbs came back, and it seems obvious that the chemistry between Fassel and Snyder is better than the chemistry between Williams and Snyder.

7. Snyder has a Good Track Record in Hiring Coaches. Before you laugh, consider that is only real mistake was in hiring Spurrier -- and that was a decision that virtually everyone applauded at the time. Firing Turner was a right decision. Hiring Schottenheimer was the right decision. Firing Schottenheimer was the right decision when he refused to give up control as GM (remeber that Snyder tried to hire a real GM after the Schottenheimer firing but the offerees declined). Hiring Spurrier was the lone exception to Snyder's judgment. Hiring Gibbs has been universally applauded as the right decision.

8. Overhaul is not as Bad as You Think. The NFL changes 30% every year even without a head coaching change. The only constant in the NFL is change.

9. Stability is Overrated. For all the "turmoil" the franchise has suffered since Snyder became owner, consider that Gibbs' "steadying hand" did little to affect bottom line results. Under Gibbs the team squeaked into the playoffs as the #6 seed twice. The team also fell flat on its face twice -- all of this under the guidance of a Hall of Fame coach. For four years the team has been consistently mediocre. Is that the type of stability you crave?

10. Our Identity is to have an Offense HC. For at least 23 of the last 25 years (arguably 24 of 25) our HC has been an offensive mind. It is who we are. It is our destinty.

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:55 am
by Redskin in Canada
David Letterman, is that you giving it your best try to make us laugh?

WRONG. This is not even funny stuff let alone worthy of any serious consideration.

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:19 am
by BossHog
That's optimism all right. :up:

The only problem with optimists is that they're wrong half of the time. :wink:

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:34 am
by roybus14
The District has a substance abuse program you can check into. The Addiction Prevention and Recovery Administration. Right on First Street N.E. near New York Avenue....

Re: Ten Reasons for Optimism

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:54 am
by mastdark81
[quote="Snout"]1. Continuity is Overrated. Remember Richie Petibon?[quote="Snout"]

Yes I do remember Richie. He lost a good share of the Super Bowl players the year he coached the Redskins. Like Gary Clark, Wilbur Marshall I believe left due to a new free agent system the NFL developed along with other players. Mark Rypien had a horrific season. Not saying he was a good coach but he definitely didn't have all the cards Joe Gibbs played with.

I don't mind the coach being someone other then G. Williams but I do believe we need to retain him as well as Al Saunders. It amazes me how each time the Redskins go to the playoffs major changes are made (the lone year Norv got to the playoffs, Al Saunders coming to town and switching the offense in Joe 2.0 years, and possibly now)

It just doesn't make any sense. You have the Giants, a team that no one can convince me we were worst then this year go to the Super Bowl and we were just one extra win away from not going to Seattle and playing in that hell house and they want to break everything up.

At least I was a little bit okay with Saunders coming because his offense was just #1 the previous two years with no game breakers in KC. But what has Zorn done? Matt Hasselbeck is a product of continuity. He could have dang near had no Qb coach and would have been successful... He has been in the same West Coast offense his entire career and I believe he has had the same Head Coach (Holmgren) even back when he was a Packer. This is what builds success in qb's = continuity. Qb's are what builds success in teams.

Only reason management that had sense would make such a change is if they were going in another direction at QB and would bring in a QB that had experience and corresponds to the new system. :evil:

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:37 pm
by SkinsJock
BossHog wrote:That's optimism all right. :up:

The only problem with optimists is that they're wrong half of the time. :wink:


:up: I think you're a little generous with your stats - "more than half of the time" would be closer.


although I disagree with most of the optimistic thoughts I do hold out some hope (very little, I'll admit) :(

We could see (and most indications are, we will see) a new HC with Williams staying as DC and Zorn as OC - the new HC may have already indicated interest in Zorn and Williams might have not "interviewed" as well as hoped and Snyder (and Cerrato) might have indicated that they wanted to go in a different direction for HC with Williams staying as DC!

Hiring Zorn is surely an indication that Saunders is gone but Williams might still be here if the new HC has indicated he could work with him OR Williams is history when the new HC is announced and that person does not want Williams as his DC :lol:


BUT at this time there is not a lot of reason for optimism - that's for sure

Re: Ten Reasons for Optimism

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:05 pm
by skinsfan#33
mastdark81 wrote:
Snout wrote:1. Continuity is Overrated. Remember Richie Petibon?
Snout wrote:

Yes I do remember Richie. He lost a good share of the Super Bowl players the year he coached the Redskins. Like Gary Clark, Wilbur Marshall I believe left due to a new free agent system the NFL developed along with other players. Mark Rypien had a horrific season. Not saying he was a good coach but he definitely didn't have all the cards Joe Gibbs played with. :evil:


Richie also didn't have Grimm or Bostic and Stink was out most of the year! Jim Lachey and Joe Jacoby were out a lot too. We thought we had OL problems this year. It was nothing compared to what Richie had to deal with!

The only thing that was wrong w/hiring "the bone" was the fact that Cooke fired him after one year.

If you remember correctly, Norv had more talent there his first year and won one less game, but he still got 7 more years.

Snyder can be applauded for one thing and that is canning Norv!

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:04 pm
by rod_gardner_fan_club
This isn't a glass half full situation. Dan Snyder drank the glass.

It was full of grain alcohol. Then he fired GW.

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:35 pm
by Jake
If I drank the Kool Aid you just drank, I would be knocked out for days. Holy crap.

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:38 pm
by El Mexican
This sucks on so many levels I can hardly breath.

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:01 pm
by Irn-Bru
ROTFALMAO That first post had me cracking up. Nice work, Sout! :up:

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:12 pm
by HEROHAMO
I am sorry but I dont share your optimistic view.

I am now officially going to shut down emotionally and mentally. :shock:

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:39 pm
by andyjens89
Here's something that should make EVERYONE on earth optimistic:






Eli Manning is in the Super Bowl

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:18 pm
by welch
Others have covered most of this, but...I have lived in NY a long time. Fassel was not much of a coach. The players chased him out of town, with the newspapers in hot pursuit.

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:23 am
by Snout
So folks did not like my first ten reasons for optimism? Here are ten more:

11. Sally Jenkins doesn't like the recent moves and wrote an embarassingly amateur rant -- and we all know she is always wrong.

12. Mike Wise thinks Williams should have been the HC and we all know he is a complete idiot.

13. Boswell thinks that hiring an outsider would be a radical change of direction that would destroy the foundation Gibbs established. How often has he been right since Snyder became the owner?

14. Wilbon is the only columnist I respect, and that is because he was the only one man enough to admit that he would have made the same decisions as Snyder in giving Turner one more chance, then firing Turner, the hiring Schottenheimer, then firing Schottenheimer, then hiring Spurrier, then hiring Gibbs. Wilbon is the wisest of the bunch, and the only one to not jump on the Williams bandwagon.

15. In promoting Blache the Redskins keep some continuity on the defense.

16. The Redskins will keep Danny Smith on special teams - more continuity.

17. The Redskins will keep a number of offensive assistants - more continuity. This is NOT a case of blowing everything up and starting from scratch.

18. The WP should not be trusted for reporting that Snyder is telling people that Williams trashed Gibbs. C'mon. Two weeks ago everyone on this board was trashing the WP, and everyone acknowledged the have an agenda against Snyder. I suspect that everything got twisted. My guess is that one of the questions Snyder asked during the 10 hour interview was what Williams would do differently than Gibbs. And because his personality is completely different, I suppose he probably had a long answer. And I suppose that Snyder may have interpreted the answer to mean that Williams would not manage the team exactly the same way Gibbs did. That can be interpreted as criticism. That can be twisted by the media as a suggestion that Snyder said that Williams trashed Gibbs. I don't buy it.

19. If the best we could do is 4 mediocre seasons with Gibbs+Williams does anyone really think that we would get to the next level with Williams-Gibbs?

20. When it seems like the sky is falling and everyone is in a panic, it is never quite as bad as it seems. The stock market will bounce back, and so will the Redskins. If the Cowboys can lose the Tuna, blow everything up, hire an idiot coach and an idiot wide receiver and then go 13-3, then I think the Redskins can go 14-2 next year.

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:51 am
by RayNAustin
At the risk of sounding cynical, I have three reasons why your 10 reasons won't stand up.

1) Dan Snyder (no lengthy explanation required)

2) Vinny Cerrato (no lengthy explanation required)

3) Vinny Cerrato (he's so bad, he easily equals two reasons all by himself)

But in all seriousness, I don't necessarily disagree with the house cleaning approach considering all the facts. I just don't like how it was handled and I find the little PR hit piece on Williams despicable behavior from an overgrown juvenile low balling Billionaire who is stinking wealthy in spite of himself.

Unfortunately, the one room of the house that needed cleaning the most was instead promoted, because of course, if it ain't broke don't fix it. This is proof that Snyder remains totally clueless to the fact that neither he nor Cerrato should have anything to do with personnel decisions, and so long as they do, not much will truly change. It's also proof that Snyder doesn't read the newspaper, or hear the laughter ehcoing through the buildings of the better front offices in the NFL

And the one thing Gibbs failed to do.....is he failed to convince Snyder that he needed a real football guy GM because apparently, Gibbs is clueless to this glarring problem too. In fact, for the past four years Gibbs was just as guilty as Cerrato regarding poor talent evaluation.

To hear Gibbs talk, they did a fine job overall on personnel, and that is a sad, sad, conclusion that no one else in respected football circles would remotely agree with for a nanosecond.

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:42 am
by DEHog
21. There are only 32 teams in the NFL..our changes are good!!

Hey this is fun..who's got 22??

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:03 am
by screwgun
BossHog wrote:That's optimism all right. :up:

The only problem with optimists is that they're wrong half of the time. :wink:

Optimism Does bring positive results! I'd rather be happy 1/2 of the time than sad most of it !!! :P

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:24 pm
by Jake
screwgun wrote:
BossHog wrote:That's optimism all right. :up:

The only problem with optimists is that they're wrong half of the time. :wink:

Optimism Does bring positive results! I'd rather be happy 1/2 of the time than sad most of it !!! :P


Find a way to get Snyder to sell the team and you might achieve that. :wink:

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:29 pm
by BossHog
SkinsJock wrote: :up: I think you're a little generous with your stats - "more than half of the time" would be closer.

although I disagree with most of the optimistic thoughts I do hold out some hope (very little, I'll admit) :(

We could see (and most indications are, we will see) a new HC with Williams staying as DC and Zorn as OC - the new HC may have already indicated interest in Zorn and Williams might have not "interviewed" as well as hoped and Snyder (and Cerrato) might have indicated that they wanted to go in a different direction for HC with Williams staying as DC!

Hiring Zorn is surely an indication that Saunders is gone but Williams might still be here if the new HC has indicated he could work with him OR Williams is history when the new HC is announced and that person does not want Williams as his DC :lol:


Well there's your proof, half your optimism went down the toilet with GW's departure.

:wink: :-)

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:31 pm
by DINO
Wait a minute, let me get this straight......to have your team get into the playoffs 2 times in 4 years is considered MEDIOCRE coaching???I wonder if the other 20 teams sitting home watching it on TV share the same sentiment? To me the measure of coaching success is putting your team in a position to have a chance at the super bowl. Case in point-the giants, #5 seed WILDCARD!After that it is up to GOD and luck.Trust me if the SUPER BOWL was best 2 of 3 , there would be a few different teams hoisting that trophy

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:31 pm
by hogproud
Snout...your optimism should be commended. I admire your Half-full mentality and I personally am trying to keep a similar outlook. It's very difficult right now because of the uncertainty and lack of information regarding this very important hire, however, I will keep my chin up! :roll:

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:41 pm
by RayNAustin
DINO wrote:Wait a minute, let me get this straight......to have your team get into the playoffs 2 times in 4 years is considered MEDIOCRE coaching???I wonder if the other 20 teams sitting home watching it on TV share the same sentiment? To me the measure of coaching success is putting your team in a position to have a chance at the super bowl. Case in point-the giants, #5 seed WILDCARD!After that it is up to GOD and luck.Trust me if the SUPER BOWL was best 2 of 3 , there would be a few different teams hoisting that trophy


Two trips to the playoffs in 4 years is certainly a whole lot better than we've seen for a long time here. However, both years we experienced major losing streaks which put our backs to the wall which then took a miracle rally by the players to go on unlikely winning streaks just to sneak in the back door. This demonstrated that we had the talent to play better than we did, and at least some of that let down which resulted in losing streaks were coaching related.

But the more obvious issues were the disasterous free agent decisions (both players that we let leave and the ones we brought in) which in retrospect turned out very poorly, more often than not.

Now it's easy to miss on a draft pick....in fact with most teams, only a small percentage of their draft picks actually make the starting lineup, and fewer become star players. But free agents? You should never have the number of free agent busts that the Redskins regularly achieve. There is enough information on free agents to make better informed decisions. apparently, the Redskins only listen to there internal evaluations and reports written by Vinny.

Take Archuleta for example. I read several reports after the signing to see what the deal was on him (cuz I didn't know much about him). And most of the "outside the Redskins organization" reports questioned the fit. Many said that Archuleta had poor coverage skills and would't fit with Williams system that places more coverage demands on the safeties. And those reports were ALL TOO ACCURATE as we all painfully know now. So why didn't the Redskins see this? Why didn't Williams recognize this in his own system? He actually lobbied for Archuleta, which I think was one of the major blunders that doomed his chances for the HC job, along with the decision to let Antonio Pierce go to the NYG in 2004, which was never fixed until 2007 (Fletcher).

There have been many such gaffes in free agent signings over the course of the past 4 years that can't be blamed on just Snyder and Cerrato. The problem is, Cerrato isn't smart enough with talent evaluation to assist the coaching staff in preventing those types of errors (which is one of the things good GM's do.)

Then we have the ongoing saga of poor clock and time out management which are fundemental issues that a senior coaching staff should have gotten a handle on somewhere in 2004, never mind seeing it continue into 2007 !!!

We also have questionable play calling....and less than satisfactory talent evaluation and utilization of players already ON THE TEAM.

The reason we wasted a pick on TJ Duckett was because Gibbs didn't think Betts-Cartright-Sellers could fill in for Portis. As it turned out, Betts finally did get in there and tore it up! Ran for 5 straight 100 yard games (the only Redskin back to ever do it). So that was a big mistake. And Betts hasn't been adequately utilized since then.

Sorry to be so lengthy here, but there's a lot to cover. In Gibbs previous life, he had no qualms about yanking a QB that wasn't getting the job done. He did it repeatedly. And he did it too quickly I think with Ramsey this time around. He came in here with the intention of playing Brunell, and he couldn't wait to yank Ramsey. But then he allowed Brunell to struggle until the season was essentially lost. And he did the same thing with Campbell in 2007. It was only through injury that Campbell came out, and Collins stepped in and won 4 games in a row for us. Now, everyone was surprised at how well Collins played.....but it really shouldn't have been such a big surprise to the coaching staff who see these players every day, should it? The fact of the matter is, that in pre-season play, Collins did look better than both Campbell and Brunell, which is why Brunell slipped to 3rd on the depth chart. But Collins was never considered, until they were FORCED to use him.

This team finished 9-7 miraculously due to a 4 game winning streak because of Collins surprising and highly productive play, period. Had the coaching staff made the decision (instead of injury) to put him in there for a change of pace, then they would receive the credit. But they didn't, so they don't. What they should receive credit for, (and I think they are) is for having Collins sit on the bench while we're suffering through a 4 game losing streak that was on the verge of becoming another under 500 finish for the 3rd time in 4 years.

So when you really examine the facts here, instead of just the final results, I see a team that should have finished 12-4 and strongly challenged Dallas for the division title THIS YEAR. Even with all of the injuries and the loss of ST.

In the final analysis, one of two things needed to happen. The Coaching staff needed help with talent decisions (a true talent evaluator in the front office) and a comprehensive performance evaluation in order to identify and correct the other mistakes that held this team back from achieving their potential. Or, they needed a new coaching staff that would be better at talent evaluation than Cerrato.

As Paul Harvey would say "and that, is the rest of the story".