The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

well if boonell and collins are both gone, and of course JC is the starter, who do we have as a vet back up? i hope the vin and danny dont go out and spend a ton of money on some washed up fatty but we do need a back up.

who are our options?

I think that if Saunders is still here, Collins will still be here (I hope.). We need to wait and see how the Head Coach thing plays out. Everything depends on the outcome of that.

I think that the Redskins will keep Collins and get rid of Brunell

aswas71788 wrote:I think that if Saunders is still here, Collins will still be here (I hope.). We need to wait and see how the Head Coach thing plays out. Everything depends on the outcome of that.

No need to add anything to that.

Trent Green would be a great addition if Collins leaves. He been very successful in Saunders system. and would make a great mentor for Jason

DEHog wrote:Trent Green would be a great addition if Collins leaves. He been very successful in Saunders system. and would make a great mentor for Jason

Trent Green would be a no go. He appears to be having ongoing chronic post-concussion issues, and it wouldn't surprise me if he couldn't even pass a physical at this point. Each time he is hit, it becomes more likely that he'll suffer a concussion, and each concussion he suffers leaves more permanent damage.

I don't think he'll be a viable back up.

All of this depends on our O Cordinator.

1) Al stays -- I'd bet on Collins as our #2. I don't believe any team will offer him starting money and the starting QB at his age. He'll get a nice raise though. If he did leave (to possibly NE to backup Brady in his hometown), I'd bet on Damon Huard as our #2. Trent Green is an interesting idea, assuming he could pass a physcial and assuming he'd be okay as our #2.

2) Al leaves -- who knows...

With respect to our #3 -- I'd like Brunnel to take a pay cut ($1 mil) and stay another year to help mentor JC. If he retires, get another veteran QB, pay no more than $1 mil. for 2008. It has to be someone who can live being #3. Brunnel has been great this year. I was happy we had him after Jason got hurt. If our team was rebuilding, I'd say get a young guy to carry the clipboard but since we're probably (hopefully!) going back to playoffs, having a quality #3 is a good thing. Can anyone imagine Collins getting hurt in the 1st quarter of the Seattle game and Hollenbach coming in??? UGHH!

bbbbrrrrrunnnneeeelllll

[quote="fredp45"]All of this depends on our O Cordinator.

1) Al stays -- I'd bet on Collins as our #2. I don't believe any team will offer him starting money and the starting QB at his age.

I was thinking about that. There are two teams that jump out at me that are rebuilding, and could use a good vet to start this year and maybe next to mentor a rookie. These would be Atlanta and Miami. I wouldn't be suprised to see him go to either of those teams. Chicago could be a possibility too. All three have QBs that suck. He could play starter and mentor for 2 years or so, and then retire.

Jeff George will be the backup. Please note that I am kidding on this last thing, but knowing the Danny....

Countertrey wrote:

DEHog wrote:Trent Green would be a great addition if Collins leaves. He been very successful in Saunders system. and would make a great mentor for Jason

Trent Green would be a no go. He appears to be having ongoing chronic post-concussion issues, and it wouldn't surprise me if he couldn't even pass a physical at this point. Each time he is hit, it becomes more likely that he'll suffer a concussion, and each concussion he suffers leaves more permanent damage.

I don't think he'll be a viable back up.

I thought that may be the case as well...but he's been cleared to play with no lingering effects from past concussion says his Dr's . Trent said on NFL live he was go to go.

I willing to bet that not a lot of teams will offer a ton of cash for him. We could get him very cheap.

jeremyroyce wrote:I think that the Redskins will keep Collins and get rid of Brunell

ditto

spudstr04 wrote:

jeremyroyce wrote:I think that the Redskins will keep Collins and get rid of Brunell

ditto

I think the Skins WANT to do that. If they WILL do that probably depends on if there's anyone out there who's going to seriously consider Collins for starter and pay him accordingly. I think it's possible to go either way. So my prediction is.

IF Collins doesn't get serious interest from anyone else then we'll be able to sign him and Brunell will retire.

IF Collins DOES get serious interest from anyone else then we'll lose him, and if he gets starter money we SHOULD let him go. However, I predict that if Brunell knows Collins is gone and he's #2 we can talk him into playing another year.

If the worst case happens and Collins goes and Brunell retires anyway, we're screwed if JC goes down. We'll do the best we can but it's almost impossible to get an actually GOOD veteran backup.

Where goes Saunders....so goes Collins...Boonell needs to retire.

Saunders stays---Collins is back up

Saunders leaves- Should look for a 3-5 year back up vet or a project youngster.

NOT Hallenbach.......

KazooSkinsFan wrote:... If the worst case happens and Collins goes and Brunell retires anyway, we're screwed if JC goes down. We'll do the best we can but it's almost impossible to get an actually GOOD veteran backup.

I'll bet everyone here never thought that Collins would actually be as effective as he was - he was only brought in because he was so familiar with Saunders' offense that he might be of some assistance to Campbell - he really did look fairly good in the pre-season but Gibbs recently said he thought that was more to do with the competition he was facing then - goes to show that a lot of very bright NFL types are invariably very wrong about potential NFL players:

Brady (Pats) was a 6th round pick
Clark (Colts WR) was a college Linebacker
Clayton sp? (Saints WR) was a 7th round pick

also the importance of having good college and NFL player advisors or talent scouts
and the list goes on

SkinsJock wrote:

KazooSkinsFan wrote:... If the worst case happens and Collins goes and Brunell retires anyway, we're screwed if JC goes down. We'll do the best we can but it's almost impossible to get an actually GOOD veteran backup.

I'll bet everyone here never thought that Collins would actually be as effective as he was - he was only brought in because he was so familiar with Saunders' offense that he might be of some assistance to Campbell - he really did look fairly good in the pre-season but Gibbs recently said he thought that was more to do with the competition he was facing then - goes to show that a lot of very bright NFL types are invariably very wrong about potential NFL players:

Brady (Pats) was a 6th round pick
Clark (Colts WR) was a college Linebacker
Clayton sp? (Saints WR) was a 7th round pick

also the importance of having good college and NFL player advisors or talent scouts
and the list goes on

You also have to figure that there's a context to an individual's perfomance. IF they're in the wrong place at the wrong time, then they won't perform NEARLY as well as the polar opposite. That goes to say about Collins as well. He wouldn't be nearly as effective as he was if he were to change systems now and to go another team.

Billy Volek!!!



Just kidding. But you know after that game winning drive yesterday, he'll end up starting for somebody next season.

I don't see Volek going anywhere IMO because he fits in perfect with the west coast play in the AFC. Brunell I think will retire if the Skins drop him which is predicted. JC's still our guy though but it'll be a real blower if he has to learn a whole new offense.

Not sure about Billy V - I totally agree with VetSkinsFan in that there are a large number of players who for one reason or another either just suit certain systems or are versatile enough to be able to "fit" into systems that enable them to play better than expected.

This happens quite a lot in the NFL and the talent evaluators that can find these players are worth an awful lot to their teams. We unfortunately do not seem to be that good at this right now.

SkinsJock wrote:Clark (Colts WR) was a college Linebacker

His freshman year. He was moved to TE for his sophmore and junior seasons (and left after his junior season). He was a college TE for all intents and purposes.

Clayton sp? (Saints WR) was a 7th round pick

Colston.

I think the biggest question we have here is that a lot of guys mentioned in these posts are under contract. I don't see the 'Skins giving anyone draft picks for a backup QB. There are going to be a good amount of guys out there to play backup.

PulpExposure wrote:

SkinsJock wrote:Clark (Colts WR) was a college Linebacker

His freshman year. He was moved to TE for his sophmore and junior seasons (and left after his junior season). He was a college TE for all intents and purposes.

Clayton sp? (Saints WR) was a 7th round pick

Colston.

thanks for both corrections - I was just indicating how important it is to teams to have good evaluators - it would seem to be relatively easy to pick out the very good players but the better job is when these guys can find back-ups that really help a team when they are needed

At QB we will need to find someone to replace Collins because I do not believe that if for any reason Collins is not here we will keep Brunell - he was a Gibbs favorite and has used up his time here - a lot depends who is the OC - just like any position it is important to find back-ups that suit what you like to do whether on offense or defense.

If Saunders is here I really think it will suit both Collins and the team for him to stay - IF we have a new OC and the team thinks that their offensive game planning will suit Collins then again he will stay - this guy is a very good back-up but he is suited only to certain systems and because of his age he is not going to find many opportunities to be a starter. .

SkinsJock wrote:I'll bet everyone here never thought that Collins would actually be as effective as he was - he was only brought in because he was so familiar with Saunders' offense that he might be of some assistance to Campbell - he really did look fairly good in the pre-season but Gibbs recently said he thought that was more to do with the competition he was facing then - goes to show that a lot of very bright NFL types are invariably very wrong about potential NFL players:

So true. There are surprises all around the NFL, and I believe that part of it is that the process of qualifying talent in general has become too focussed on things like physical measurements, strength, jumping ability etc., while missing the intangibles like the natural ability to play the game....the nuances like the QB who naturally gives that little pump or shoulder shift to draw off that safety, or the receiver that defies the natural human responses who's face and eyes don't tell the defender that the ball is arriving NOW. This is what separates the great ones from the rest, and every bit as important as physical talent.

I saw a special on Brady, showing him at pre-draft combines, and he wasn't a great physical specimen, and he wasn't very fast and looked a bit awkward running. Consequently, he was completely overlooked or rated very low by the "experts".

No greater example of this misjudgement about talent ever happened than Ryan Leaf, drafted by the Chargers (Bobby Beathard), who gave up a 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder just to trade up one spot to pick Leaf. Just goes to show that even great talent guys like Beathard can blow it too.

But the QB position is both the most difficult to prejudge and most disasterous when you do. There is a higher level of investment" in a QB often including a big salary and 2-3 year free pass for "learning" whereas other positions are expected to produce more quickly.

That's why you have to hedge your bets with QBs, and that's where the Redskins are right now with Campbell. Collins play highlighted Campbell's shortcomings more than anything Campbell actually did. Collins proved that there was nothing fundementally wrong with the offensive playbook, because he was able to step in and increase production immediatelty.

Does that mean that Campbell is a bust? Maybe not, but contrary to popular belief, the jury is still out. Campbell's difficulties are less related to understanding the playbook than is generally believed by the majority here, and relate more (IMO) to those intangibles that are based on instinct and natural tendancies as opposed to learned.

Aside from the fact that Campbell has all of the prerequsite physical talents, he is rather slow in execution......slow in going through progressions, and a slow release. This is partly due to being slow in reading defenses, which has very liitle to do with understanding his own playbook. Some of this can be improved upon through more experience, but not all of it, as defenses constantly change the looks they give to disguise coverages, and blitzes, etc., which requires a QB to recognize and react quickly, on instinct.

This is the answer to the question that isn't being asked about Campbell. That question is....why does Campbell do so much better running the no huddle offense than he does running the conventional offense when conventional wisdom says it should be just the opposite (if experience is the main factor)? Because in the no huddle, opposing defenses cannot substitute as effectively, and cannot scheme and shift in and out of different looks as they do when given more time.

So to answer the main question, one has to determine who the starting QB is first. And I don't think anyone can legitimately do that now.

If the Redskins automatically declare Campbell the starter, Collins will be gone next year. Collins knows that he is running out of time, and that his "stock" will never be higher than it is right now for getting a chance to start. And somebody out there will offer him at least a chance if the Redskins don't. And this decision could become a two to three year setback for the organization because we have nothing else to fall back on except Brunell (who should be released).

If it was my decision to make, and I didn't want to start collins, I'd talk to the Browns about Derek Anderson, and find a way to get him. Perhaps trading Collins and a 1st or 2nd, then it would be an open competition for the starter and backup next year between Anderson and Campbell.

Very intriguing - I have followed a lot of your posts about Campbell because since week 1 I was very hopeful that Campbell was going to prove to be a lot better and while he had improved some I was a little disappointed and primarily with the speed aspects you have been addressing. I am still hopeful that he will prove to be a whole lot better and I respect your concern that might not be a possibility.

If the Redskins automatically declare Campbell the starter, Collins will be gone next year. Collins knows that he is running out of time, and that his "stock" will never be higher than it is right now for getting a chance to start. And somebody out there will offer him at least a chance if the Redskins don't. And this decision could become a two to three year setback for the organization because we have nothing else to fall back on except Brunell (who should be released).

About this, I am not that certain I agree with you! - IF Saunders is still here, I think that Collins will stay because I think the Redskins gives him his best chance to be successful - I really do not think that Collins has many teams that have offenses that he might not only be suitable for but also good enough to start - here he knows that if Campbell does not make the marked improvements that we both think he needs then he might be in the best place to start - and we will not have Brunell as we will need another good QB. He also gives Campbell (& the team) the security of knowing that he has a very good back-up if we need it.

If it was my decision to make, and I didn't want to start Collins, I'd talk to the Browns about Derek Anderson, and find a way to get him. Perhaps trading Collins and a 1st or 2nd, then it would be an open competition for the starter and backup next year between Anderson and Campbell.

Getting Anderson might be a stretch - that guy is very good and I'm sure the Browns are going to try and keep both he and Quinn.

This thread has lost all sense of sanity at this point.