The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

So, yeah, I'm pretty much saying it's time for Joe to consider stepping aside:

http://www.the-hogs.net/content/index.php?id=1022

As always, Diggs are appreciated

Even beyond our questioning whether or not Joe Gibbs wants to be the alarm clock, I believe his coaching staff is asking themselves the same question.

If the assistant head coach says, "Trash Can Lid Wakeup Call", military-style, and the Head Coach says, "Hit the Snooze Button", it seems self-evident which alarm the team is paying attention to.

It seems akin to staying up past bedtime on a school night, knowing final exams are the next day. So, in order to "party until we puke", we get up as late as possible, shovel down coffee and a high-sugar, ready-made breakfast of donuts, and experience an empty-calorie crash and burn an hour into the two and one-half hour exam.

Afterwards, we thing to ourself, "That wasn't the best decision I've ever made", but the next week we do the exact same thing because, despite the complete and total ignorance of it, we have managed to survive doing things this way several times before.

That actually goes to a question I posed to my brother, are Williams and Saunders not biting off heads out of deference to Gibbs or is that inherent to their coaching DNA having worked for the man? The latter scares me a bit because then I'm not terribly thrilled by the notion of handing over the reigns. I see Williams as a knock some heads kind of guy so I think the former option is probably more realistic.

Fios wrote:That actually goes to a question I posed to my brother, are Williams and Saunders not biting off heads out of deference to Gibbs or is that inherent to their coaching DNA having worked for the man? The latter scares me a bit because then I'm not terribly thrilled by the notion of handing over the reigns. I see Williams as a knock some heads kind of guy so I think the former option is probably more realistic.

There has to be such a thing as too much respect amongst the coaching staff. The ultimate problem would see to be that thanks to "The Danny" thinking Joe Gibbs is infallible, any disagreement amongst the coaching staff would lead to the untimely demise of anyone and everyone other than Joe Gibbs. Joe Gibbs will be leaving only of his own accord. Dan Snyder will not ask Joe Gibbs to give up the head coaching position. I do not think the same can be said of anyone else on the coaching staff.

Step aside? Now? No way. If he step aside now this would mean he would be giving up on the team. How would the players react?

I am not sure I want GW or Al Saunders coaching this team any how. In fact I will say I do not want Saunders or GW to be head coach. I do not see Gibbs stepping down not in the middle of the season anyway. Maybe after his contract is up. The way I see it we just have to suck it up and deal with it.

My expectations for this team were to be competitive and get into the playoffs and see how far we can get.

Now the loss on Sunday to the Pats was miserable as a fan to watch and it hurt oh so bad, but Gibbs has at least earned the right to finish out his contract. After another draft class, I believe we can gain additional pieces to a SuperBowl team.

I believe we have a good team now, I think we will be even better come next draft class.

Now everyone knows this team has been hammered with injuries. Our whole right side of the line is gone. The Pats consistently blitzed and overloaded the right side. I hate to keep repeating whats been said before but it is too true.

So as a Skins fan I for one am going to grit my teeth this season and hope for the best, once again.

Gibbs has brought in a whole lot of talent thus far. Gibbs has never had a chance to pick with most of our draft picks. Going into this off season for once we have most of our picks to go at it this year.

Honestly I went into this season thinking we will be good this year, but we will be even better after the 2008 draft. This I promise and know for sure.

So all though I get pissed at times with the playcalling of this offense. I do remember this offense had signs of life. The Pats game the offense was wide open there were plenty of passes to go with the runs. Jason Campbell lost that game in my opinion. J.C. choked big time.

I am one that still has confidence in Gibbs and am willing to at least see him through till his contract is over. Just think about it. Think about the more talent that can be added after the 2008 draft.

So far we have been hammered with injuries and inconsistent line and Qb play. We can at least see how the season pans out.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"It just seems as if one of the few things we, as Redskins fans, are consistently doing is explaining or justifying or next-year-ing or this and that and the other."

Let's be clear I'm not saying this should happen now, that's why I was purposeful in choosing the word consider. Also note item 6, I'd be more than happy to be wrong about all of this.

I just see too many of the same issues plaguing this team year in and year out to think that another year of Gibbs is necessarily the best fit. Too many "wow, that was closer than it should have been" nail-biters and far too many "wow, they really should have won that game" disappointments. I don't want to purge the franchise of Gibbs entirely, I just want him in a role where he can be most effective and I'm starting to believe head coach is not it.

Fios wrote:Let's be clear I'm not saying this should happen now, that's why I was purposeful in choosing the word consider. Also note item 6, I'd be more than happy to be wrong about all of this.

I just see too many of the same issues plaguing this team year in and year out to think that another year of Gibbs is necessarily the best fit. Too many "wow, that was closer than it should have been" nail-biters and far too many "wow, they really should have won that game" disappointments. I don't want to purge the franchise of Gibbs entirely, I just want him in a role where he can be most effective and I'm starting to believe head coach is not it.

Joe Gibbs has done a great job with bringing in impact players. Once those players get here, he seems to lose control of them. Let's keep Joe Gibbs bringing in the talent and find a prick of a head coach to keep the talent motivated.

GSPODS wrote:

Fios wrote:Let's be clear I'm not saying this should happen now, that's why I was purposeful in choosing the word consider. Also note item 6, I'd be more than happy to be wrong about all of this.

I just see too many of the same issues plaguing this team year in and year out to think that another year of Gibbs is necessarily the best fit. Too many "wow, that was closer than it should have been" nail-biters and far too many "wow, they really should have won that game" disappointments. I don't want to purge the franchise of Gibbs entirely, I just want him in a role where he can be most effective and I'm starting to believe head coach is not it.

Joe Gibbs has done a great job with bringing in impact players. Once those players get here, he seems to lose control of them. Let's keep Joe Gibbs bringing in the talent and find a prick of a head coach to keep the talent motivated.

I agree with that notion. I just dont want to give him the boot pre maturely. We can at least honor his contract, and who knows what can happen in the next two years?

Just think how much more talent comes in every year Gibbs is here?
Wouldnt Gibbs be insulted if he were asked to step down? Would he even want to stay as GM if he were asked to step down?

If we hired a Bill Cowher, I am pretty sure it is goodbye to Gibbs. Cowher would want to bring in his own guys and his own Philosophy. Heck Most head Coaches want there own type of guys. Gibbs and Cowher might butt heads? That would mean blowing up the current team and yes starting all over again.

Bringing in a new head coach may mean the blowing up of this team. It may also mean we might have to endure another start of new guys. So it may mean goodbye to Gibbs and all these current players save a few.
There are a alot of possibiltys that may transpire if Gibbs were to step down as head coach now or in the future.

I think we can endure at least to the end of his contract. Like I said before who knows after another draft we may have a Super Bowl Roster? Too many injuries for me to be convinced it is Gibbs philosophy to blame, or his playcalling this year.

GSPODS wrote:

Fios wrote:Let's be clear I'm not saying this should happen now, that's why I was purposeful in choosing the word consider. Also note item 6, I'd be more than happy to be wrong about all of this.

I just see too many of the same issues plaguing this team year in and year out to think that another year of Gibbs is necessarily the best fit. Too many "wow, that was closer than it should have been" nail-biters and far too many "wow, they really should have won that game" disappointments. I don't want to purge the franchise of Gibbs entirely, I just want him in a role where he can be most effective and I'm starting to believe head coach is not it.

Joe Gibbs has done a great job with bringing in impact players. Once TTthose players get here, he seems to lose control of them. Let's keep Joe Gibbs bringing in the talent and find a prick of a head coach to keep the talent motivated.

One of the greatest cliches in football is that a team loses becauses it's not motivated. Yeah, it happens, but not like a lot of people think-- and is seldom correctable because a coach starts banging heads. Teams lose motivation primarily because they collectively recognize they cannot win on their present course and lack the ability to change that course.

The Skins currently have too little talent. They are too injured. They have an out-of-touch coaching staff that will not respond appropriately to their loss of personel, but retreats to its own comfort zone and prejudices rather than adjusts.

Gibbs will react to Campbell's fumbles by going into a shell offensively and soon the season will be effectively over. Any so called "motivational" head banging by the coaches and the front office at that time will be hightly inappropriate and ironic.

Well, I'm not so naive as to believe simply yelling will do the trick and I acknowledged the role that injuries have played. I do not agree, however, that the team is so bereft of talent as to be a lost cause.

Fios wrote:Well, I'm not so naive as to believe simply yelling will do the trick and I acknowledged the role that injuries have played. I do not agree, however, that the team is so bereft of talent as to be a lost cause.

Yelling is why everyone thinks Tom Coughlin is an idiot.
And yelling never motivated me to do anything other than to either turn on "ignore" mode or break someone's jaw.

Injuries happen. If anyone recalls, injuries are the reason the Hogs came into existence in the first place. Injuries are why certain Redskins quarterbacks started in and won SuperBowls.

This should equally be looked at from the perspective that professional athletes should have enough pride and self-respect not to need motivation. They certainly have enough income.

I'll never call for Joe to go. It's not just nostalgia. I said not "just." None of the Joe Schmos in between gave me any more hope then that Joe will figure it out.

How many coaches wallowed in mediocrity before they started to put it together, like Belichick and Cowher? So, logically, not just nostalgically, do we dump (actively, quietly, whatever) the guy who HAS solved the puzzle before for someone who hasnt'? How does that make sense?

First, off, Fios, you threw around "we" too much, and you certainly don't speak for this hog.

I personally believe Joe will turn this thing around.

I think we are overlooking some of the variables that will come to play later on in the year, over which no team has control (i.e. severe weather, cold, etc.) that will favor teams that know how to control the offense and protect the football.

Can a team like the Patriots continue to bomb teams all year long?

Will Randy Moss hate the cold weather and let his production drop?

Right now, the Redskins have not won pretty, but they've won.

It's probably naive of me to think this way, but I'll take all the ugly wins right now, and I'll take pretty in the playoffs, when it's do or die.

Look at the Colts last year. They had MAJOR faults during the season (despite their record), and few gave them a shot in the playoffs against more "dominant" teams.

Why not us?

KazooSkinsFan wrote:I'll never call for Joe to go. It's not just nostalgia. I said not "just." None of the Joe Schmos in between gave me any more hope then that Joe will figure it out.

How many coaches wallowed in mediocrity before they started to put it together, like Belichick and Cowher? So, logically, not just nostalgically, do we dump (actively, quietly, whatever) the guy who HAS solved the puzzle before for someone who hasnt'? How does that make sense?

I mean I have essentially advanced that same argument myself, god knows I have a long track record of defending Gibbs on this site. But I just don't see him adapting quickly enough, if at all, to help solve the current puzzle. So I appreciate his track record but I question how many chances that buys him.

REDEEMEDSKIN wrote:First, off, Fios, you threw around "we" too much, and you certainly don't speak for this hog.

I personally believe Joe will turn this thing around.

I think we are overlooking some of the variables that will come to play later on in the year, over which no team has control (i.e. severe weather, cold, etc.) that will favor teams that know how to control the offense and protect the football.

Can a team like the Patriots continue to bomb teams all year long?

Will Randy Moss hate the cold weather and let his production drop?

Right now, the Redskins have not won pretty, but they've won.

It's probably naive of me to think this way, but I'll take all the ugly wins right now, and I'll take pretty in the playoffs, when it's do or die.

Look at the Colts last year. They had MAJOR faults during the season (despite their record), and few gave them a shot in the playoffs against more "dominant" teams.

Why not us?

The we thing is a sports blog thing borne of newspaper editorials, note that it's signed so, at best, we would extend to THN staff. As for the Pats, yes, I certainly believe they can keep smacking teams around. Moss' lack of familiarity with cold weather play is 1) a bit overstated and 2) it doesn't stop them from featuring a dominant running game and a very good defense. The Colts flaws, as they were, were on the defensive side of the ball and were largely addressed by getting Bob Sanders back when they did and good coaching. Nobody is coming back at this point who will have an equivalent impact save for maybe Randy Thomas.

Joe and the Redskins should stay together and honour their CONTRACT. They will.

I am not giving up on Joe and neither is the owner or the coaches and players. We are in this TOGETHER, in case many of you forgot.

Some of you are making judgments following a bad result, the worst in many years. I expect the team to improve. It is FAIR and JUST to support our team and coach for as long as they are on the field.

Having said so, my argument all along has been that Joe has done A LOT to turn this franchise around over the last three and a half years. But he cannot do it all and he cannot do it alone. The FRONT OFFICE needs to be restructured and the best people need to be brought in.

Joe should move to become GM when his contract EXPIRES.

See but I agree with the importance of restructuring that front office and I think the ideal candidate to head it is Gibbs. A contract isn't a death pact. I know that's extreme but if something isn't working (and please let this be the last time I issue the I haven't given up disclaimer) you are obligated to try and fix it. It's not the Pats game that triggered my conclusion, it's the process that got them there.

REDEEMEDSKIN wrote:I personally believe Joe will turn this thing around.

What does that MEAN EXACTLY? Is 'turning this thing around" going above .500? Making the playoffs? Winning the Super Bowl? It needs to be quantified. Just improving on 5-11 is nothing - that's too low a bar.

Fios wrote:See but I agree with the importance of restructuring that front office and I think the ideal candidate to head it is Gibbs. A contract isn't a death pact. I know that's extreme but if something isn't working (and please let this be the last time I issue the I haven't given up disclaimer) you are obligated to try and fix it. It's not the Pats game that triggered my conclusion, it's the process that got them there.

The only point of contention between your argument and mine is the difference in schedule and timing. Joe is not done yet. And whether some of you believe or not, even at these very tough times, Joe is introducing a CULTURE of solidarity and unity seldom seen in other teams.

People show their best and worst behaviour at the most difficult times. This is a challenge worth to be sorted out by Joe, not as an act of faith but based on the statements made over that last few weeks.

Do not take my word for it, let's see how the team plays from now on starting THIS SUNDAY.

Redskin in Canada wrote:

Fios wrote:See but I agree with the importance of restructuring that front office and I think the ideal candidate to head it is Gibbs. A contract isn't a death pact. I know that's extreme but if something isn't working (and please let this be the last time I issue the I haven't given up disclaimer) you are obligated to try and fix it. It's not the Pats game that triggered my conclusion, it's the process that got them there.

The only point of contention between your argument and mine is the difference in schedule and timing. Joe is not done yet.

It's his 4th season - how much more time are you willing to give him? I remember back in 2005, in the middle of the 2-5 mid-season meltdown, I started a thread asking how much time should Gibbs be given to right the ship. Plenty of people jumped all over me for even suggesting Gibbs II will be anything less than a big success, and sure enough, the 'skins started the famous 5-game run, made the playoffs, and even won a playoff game. I looked silly and we all jumped on the Super Bowl 2006 bandwagon going into last year. But look how that turned out - Gibbs' worst season EVER. Now we're in the middle of the fourth season, and we've got a team that's at best, slightly better than average, and third in the division, but may still make the playoffs due to the overall weakness of the JV conference (the NFC). Sure, we've been hit hard by the injury bug, but still, this is the best Gibbs can do? Put together an average team that's not consistent and is still floundering for an identity? I think we all expected much, much more.

And whether some of you believe or not, even at these very tough times, Joe is introducing a CULTURE of solidarity and unity seldom seen in other teams.

That's nice, but a culture of winning would be better.

Do not take my word for it, let's see how the team plays from now on starting THIS SUNDAY.

Sunday is no real test - the Jets have one win, against a winless team, have also been hit with injuries, and will be starting a QB playing only his second game as a starter. And thier best WR is probably out as well. That's about as much a 'gimme' game as you'll get in this league. If they don't win by at least two scores, it'll practically be a loss.

No way should Gibbs step aside. I agree that the offense is pretty ugly right now, but after Sunday we should be 5-3. I really don't understand why you would even ask such a question. Knee-jerk reaction to the pounding in New England, I suppose. It's all about the offensive line. The injuries and instability on the line have impacted everything from the play calling to Campbell's turnovers. Gibbs has won 3 superbowls with 3 QB's but the constant, what he always had was a dominating offensive line. We lost two of our best offensive linemen. It's unfortunate, but it's part of the game. Gibbs will honor his contract. He is no quitter. Gibbs himself said there are two things in life that really test you, 1) great success and 2) great adversity, we are dealing with the adversity right now and to be on the verge of 5-3 in the midst of it seems pretty good to me.

gregory smith wrote:No way should Gibbs step aside. I agree that the offense is pretty ugly right now, but after Sunday we should be 5-3. I really don't understand why you would even ask such a question. Knee-jerk reaction to the pounding in New England, I suppose. It's all about the offensive line. The injuries and instability on the line have impacted everything from the play calling to Campbell's turnovers. Gibbs has won 3 superbowls with 3 QB's but the constant, what he always had was a dominating offensive line. We lost two of our best offensive linemen. It's unfortunate, but it's part of the game. Gibbs will honor his contract. He is no quitter. Gibbs himself said there are two things in life that really test you, 1) great success and 2) great adversity, we are dealing with the adversity right now and to be on the verge of 5-3 in the midst of it seems pretty good to me.

It helps when you actually read the column since, ya know, I made those points

There are a myriad of issues with this team but they are all on offense. GW has done a great job of coaching the defense (except last week and I will give him a pass) this year but look at the offense.

This HC can't decide what he wants to run, when to run it, when to call timeout/when not to, etc... The talent on this team is not as bad as some on this board think. Let's look at Santana Moss for example. He proved to be this teams top WR. Teams made adjustments to take him away but this HC never made an adjustment to address that. Moss has a bad game in GB and people start to question our talent at WR. So why is it that teams still can't stop Steve Smith who is pretty much the same height, weight, and speed as Moss but they can stop Moss? The Carolina Panthers don't stop throwing to him whether it's Delhomme, Carr, or a guy who walked off his coach the week before (Testaverde). They still continue to go down field to him and he continues to make plays.

Opportunities.... That's what it's all about with this offense and that goes back to who's calling the plays and what those in charge game-planning and cover in practice. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out a way to still pass with a weak right side of the O-Line. Quick slants; three step drops; etc. NE killed us on that and it didn't require their O-Line to do much blocking at all. So you telling me we can't do that? Football is a game of alot of anticipation and guessing based on what a team's tendencies are or were. If we do three step drops or quick slants, eventually teams are going to start trying to gamble and jump the route. When they do, pump and go over the top. Stuff like that is how alot other WRs get open out and be on the highlights every week.

So the bottomline in all of this, the HC is responsible. If he is willing to continue to take the hit for guys week-in and week-out when we lose and not hold them accountable, then it's time that he goes.

Let's stop being naive, blind, etc. This is not Joe Gibbs 1.0 and he is "immune" to being fired because of his success in the past. He's Bobby Bowden, Joe Paterno, etc. Guys who's time has passed but those in charge down want to be the ones to tell them it's time......