The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

It looks like Casey Bramlet will be the Redskins last chance to find Kurt Warner, because NFL Europa is folding after initially debuting as the World League of American Football in 1991. From ESPN.com:

The NFL folded its development league in Europe after 16 years on Friday, calling the decision a sound business move that will allow for a stronger international focus on regular-season games outside the United States.

I think it's a very interesting move. On the one hand, the league was losing $30 million a season, and getting the NFL on European television probably will be a better way to market the sport internationally.

On the other hand, NFL Europe had just set a league record for attendance at over 20,000 a game. Those numbers aren't bad, and the sport did look to be catching on to some degree in Germany.

However, having American player play football in Germany isn't what the NFL really wants - they need German players playing football in Germany. It will be interesting to see if they help promote a professional native league.

Another interesting question is whether or not they will bring a developmental league to the United States. The benefits are obvious - having the teams close to home allow your NFL coaches to keep a closer eye on the talent. In fact, I'm convinced if they gave each franchise it's own developmental team, the NFL coaches get pretty hands on and the players would really be able to benefit. Maybe then teams would send some of their brighter prospects rather than just the fringe guys. For example, the Redskins held on to Jordan Palmer and sent Casey Bramlet. It shows that teams felt their players got more out of the minicamps than NFL Europe.

The downside is that the NFL has a working agreement with the CFL, and adding a developmental league in the States is going to draw away from the CFL's pool of talent. The NFL feels it is in the league's best interest that the CFL stay strong, and thus hopefully the sport of football in the Great White North. And they're right, but how do you weigh that against developing your own players?

It is going to be very interesting to see how the NFL handles this on a number of fronts.

Sad to see NFL Europe go. I attended many Scottish Claymores games back in the day but, in honesty, American Football is always going to struggle to make it there.

As for the NFL being shown on TV in Europe - it already is, extensively. I myself remember the first Superbowl I saw - the 85 Bears. Fond memories also of the Skins whipping the Bills.

I know a guy that was involved with the Claymores coaching at grass roots level with Flag Football and such. That continued even after NFL moved the Claymores to Germany - whether it is still in practice I don't know as I've been here 3 years now and haven't kept up. I kinda lost interest when they moved most of the teams to Germany.

NFL may not have all that many fans in Europe but I think you'd all be surprised at the depth of knowledge of the fans.

BearSkins wrote:As for the NFL being shown on TV in Europe - it already is, extensively. I myself remember the first Superbowl I saw - the 85 Bears. Fond memories also of the Skins whipping the Bills.

Interesting - I'll confess I don't know any details of the international contract deals. How many games do they show a week? Is it more or less uniform across Europe?

Well, who would have thought it: the NFL shafts it's European fans again.

UK Skins Fan wrote:Well, who would have thought it: the NFL shafts it's European fans again.

Uhhh, they were losing millions of dollars... couldn't one just as easily say that the European fans screwed themselves? All they had to do was support the game a little better. It's one thing to blame the NFL for pulling the plug, but when they're losing hand over fist, I would expect th best run sports business to make that decision.

The NFL already has another 'development league'... it's called the CFL. More and more players that are either fringe players, or that are looking to try and rejuvenate a career... come to the Canadian Football League. The NFL also 'helps' the league financially.

Still a surprising move considering the NFL's big push to internationalize the game. Personally, I figured that having the NFL Europa in conjunction with some real NFL games on European soil was going to be an optimal solution to market the game.

Apparently not.

Sure, the league was losing millions of dollars - it always does. But it bewilders me that "the best run sports business" in the world is unable to develop a business model that would bring them financial success in Europe, whilst fulfilling the developmental role that they need it to.

The league became an almost entirely German league, and if they can't make it work by focussing purely in that area, then they'll never make it work. They'll never get more fans than they do in Germany.

This is the third time that they've started up a European league, and the third time they've shut it down - that sounds to me like incompetence.

It just leaves me scratching my head.

UK Skins Fan wrote:This is the third time that they've started up a European league, and the third time they've shut it down - that sounds to me like incompetence.

Incompetent is pretty strong. The model hasn't worked like they had hoped - what would you have done differently?

I will say that I'm pretty disappointed that they pulled the plug - they were making some real headway. The Frankfurt Galaxy averaged 33,000 fans a game - it wasn't that long ago (2003) that the Cardinals were averaging 36,000!

If I were the NFL, I would work hard at establishing at promoting the college game in Germany (I don't know a whole lot about the higher education systems in Europe - do they field varsity collegiate teams like we do in the United States?). The attendance numbers don't lie - their is clearly a German appetite for this sport, and if folding NFL Europe is running up the white flag in Germany, the NFL is making a big mistake.

Steve Spurrier III wrote:

BearSkins wrote:Interesting - I'll confess I don't know any details of the international contract deals. How many games do they show a week? Is it more or less uniform across Europe?

Terrestial TV used to show a game a week if I recall correctly, plsus they had a magazine show where you could see all the week's TD's, highights and some interviews. I think Satellite TV used to show a couple of games live (I never had satellite so I can't say for certain exactly what the set up was). We also used to get the MNF game on Terrestial. Germany would show a boatload of games and I have a buddy in Spain who used to watch regualrly also.

UK Skins Fan wrote:Sure, the league was losing millions of dollars - it always does. But it bewilders me that "the best run sports business" in the world is unable to develop a business model that would bring them financial success in Europe, whilst fulfilling the developmental role that they need it to.

Or is it just that the business plan that they use and adhere to, just won't work in Europe and they've come to that realization? Maybe they don't want to change the plan, so much as stick to the one that works for them. After all, there's no arguing that it's the best run sport if you're talking strictly about profits. Is that naive or pig-headed? Perhaps. But it could also just be protecting your back side based on what the organization feels are requirements for a successful venture. (ie TV money)

The league became an almost entirely German league, and if they can't make it work by focussing purely in that area, then they'll never make it work. They'll never get more fans than they do in Germany.

I agree. I think the NFL agrees. I think they figured if it can't work anywhere else, it isn't what they're after and it isn't something they're willing to continue to throw gobs of money at.

This is the third time that they've started up a European league, and the third time they've shut it down - that sounds to me like incompetence.

Or continued 'average' particpation from the fan base and advertisers... take your pick. I personally have no reason to believe that it's incompetence. They run the 'business' very well - all teams are profitable thanks to the beefiest of TV contracts.

Obviously their model doesn't work as well in Europe... likely due to TV and fan dollar competition from footie.

It could just be that the NFL has decided that with their 'Europe budget', they're going to develop actual NFL games in Europe and use the money that way. Maybe they just figured that in it's present state of being, it wasn't fiscally possible to do both.

I think this at least opens up a door for a (possibly native) German football league to become the premier American football provider. The NFL used NFL Europe partly to market the game over there and partly as a farm system. They also had concerns (initially) about spreading the game around Europe, so they placed teams in areas where there simply wasn't interest for them. If the NFL's sole aim was to get a profitable sports league running in Europe (whether strictly in Germany or wherever), I don't think they would have run the league the way that they did. Probably, teams would have had far less funding and it would have looked far more like the AFL of the 1960's rather than today's NFL run in Germany with worse players.

If a new league starts (there are already a ton there, though, from what I understand), it can be a bit more modest in its beginnings. If the goal from the start is simply to run a profitable league, there is certainly opportunity to do so. Heck, if the best of the teams draw an average crowd of 20,000+ per game, they will be better off than many low-level soccer leagues in Europe (TV contracts, etc., notwithstanding). Personally, I think that it's still quite doable, although the NFL may not be the party to make it happen.

It is sad to see the league fold. I enjoyed the games whenever I could catch them.

Good point on asking what is the real goal. I think in addition to developing your consumer base, you would like to expand your talent pool. That means you want the Germans playing football in addition to just watching it.

But I'm not sure if the NFL agrees. It looks like their primary objective is to develop the television market to the point where they can land the same huge television contracts in Europe that they do in the United States.

The NFL does not need a European league for player development they have that in College and the CFL. The were trying to expand their fan base and it did not worked as well as they had hoped. I wonder if this now means the NFL will drop the idea of playing real games outside the United States? I do not want the Redskins playing all over the world that much travel will ware a team out.

BernieSki wrote:The NFL does not need a European league for player development they have that in College and the CFL.

What they don't have are players in those leagues that are already 'tagged' by teams and sent there specifically for development. The NFL Europe filled a gap that the other leagues don't provide because they aren't official NFL Leagues.

The were trying to expand their fan base and it did not worked as well as they had hoped.

Perhaps not in dollars or TV contracts, but looking at the attendance numbers that SSIII was pointing out, they were certainly finding a fanbase in the people there (mostly in Germany). They also spent a lot of time trying to develop the game in England, Spain, the Netherlands, and Scotland, where it simply never took. I personally think that they were looking for a wide European exposure, and the failure to achieve that may have been part of the decision to fold.

I still think that a German Football League with some financial backing could survive with potential, but that is of course just my personal conjecture. It seems to me that consistent attendance numbers of 15k-20k is reasonable -- the AFL has functioned on less than that for many years.

I wonder if this now means the NFL will drop the idea of playing real games outside the United States?

If you read the press report, the NFL is saying that it's cutting out NFL Europe for (among other reasons) making investment room in regular season NFL games played abroad. This doesn't bode well for us in the States, I'm afraid. . .

BernieSki wrote:The NFL does not need a European league for player development they have that in College and the CFL.

The NFL is only going to be able to do so much in the United States. I don't think the NFL has completley covered the market in America (spring football and franchises in major markets like Los Angeles and Las Vegas immediately come to mind), but we're getting close.

If the NFL wants to continue to increase profit, they are going to have to utilize the international market. And if Europe can support a league in the same way the United States does, at some point we'll see international expansion. The problem is the United States can only produce so many quality football players. If the NFL wants to make this game a world-wide thing, they'll need people playing the game world-wide.

If I'm the NFL, my goal is to one day have 32 teams over in Europe also playing a full schedule, and eventually the NFL Champion meeting the European Champion for the World Championship. That would be a gold mine. The key is to make sure that they are the ones who own that European League or else face another AFL situation.

It's fascinating stuff. The thing is, there aren't going to be immediate dividends. And that's frustrating to the NFL, who routinely whip baseball and basketball at home but watch both sports flourish abroad even though the NFL invests more in the international market than MLB and the NBA combined. And it's even harder for these owners to look long-term when they'll probably be dead by the time the dividends really pay off.