The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

If you really think about what Gibbs is doing, you will start to see the similarties to the 87 and 91 Skins.

For instance with the wide recievers Lloyd,Moss, and Antwan Randle EL.
Another Fun Bunch?

We have some ways to go before reaching the heights the 91 skins did, but it seems to be coming together like a puzzle.

ey is our Don Warren, Betts and Portis equal our Byner and Washington.
Jason Campbell our Doug Williams, Springs our Darrell Green.
Sean Taylor our Sheriff, Laron our Deputy.

Only thing we are missing is the Dominant Defensive Ends. We are missing our Charles Mann and Dexter Manley.

I have a good feeling going into next years draft we will be focused on Defensive Ends. The Dt position will be just fine. Montgomery, Griff and Golston will be fine.

Everything is starting to come together. Our Secondary is solid, Linebackers solid, DT solid, Oline Solid, QB going to be solid, WR hoping to be solid, Running game no doubt superb, TE darn spiffy, only real weakness is Defensive End.

Here is a site to take a peek at the Top Defensive Ends out of College next year.

I personally want either Calais Campbell out of Miami or Tyson Jackson out of LSU. THese two beasts would complete the missing pieces to the puzzle. We are Two Defensive Ends away from a Dynasty.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2008DE.php

You forgot the most important weapon, THE HOGS. Now if you can match our OL up with them then I would see the similarities. Jacoby and Grimm are hall of famers. Mark May was a beast. Our current OL is above average but the HOGS were always considered in the top 1-3 lines in the game if not the best. They made Mark Rypien look like Joe Montana and made any running back look all pro.

It's hard enough for this line to make 3rd and short. Remember that goal line stand against the Cowboys. We had 4 cracks from the 1 yard line. Portis was getting killed on every snap. These are not the Hogs.

Shawn Springs is no Darrell Green, not even close!

HEROHAMO wrote:For instance with the wide recievers Lloyd,Moss, and Antwan Randle EL.
Another Fun Bunch?

No.

Between Monk, Clark and Sanders (I'm using these three since you specified 1987 and 1991) the Redskins had three legitimate 1000-yard receivers (back when 1000 yards meant something) and arguably two Hall-of-Fame caliber players in Art Monk and the consistently underrated Gary Clark.

Between Moss, Lloyd and Randle El, the Redskins now have one legitimate game-changer in Moss, and two talented but inconsistent players in Lloyd and Randle El. Consider that the highest single-season total between those two players is Brandon Lloyd's 733 in 2005, his third year in the NFL. By their third year in the NFL, Clark and Sanders had registered a combined three 1000-yard seasons - and that includes the strike-shortened 1987 season - Clifford Franklin took precious receptions from both men.

Randle El and Lloyd combined for three touchdown receptions last season. In their sixteen individual season with the Redskins, Clark and Sanders hauled in less than three touchdowns by themselves only once - Sanders rookie season of 1986.

It's not even close. And that's just your first thought - none of those comparisons are valid. My personal favorite is Portis and Betts to Washington and Byner - you do know that not only did Washington and Byner never play together, but that their careers with the Redskins were seperated by four years?

Please refrain from tainting D. Green's reputation by comparing him to Springs. Springs is ok - and that's only when he's not complaining or injured - but #28 he is not.

Gibbs' Hog wrote:Please refrain from tainting D. Green's reputation by comparing him to Springs. Springs is ok - and that's only when he's not complaining or injured - but #28 he is not.

Sure he's not # 28, but complaining, why because Springs didn't want a pay cut and wanted the same contrat that they actually signed, I mean he did NOT go all T.O. on us or anything.

And

Steve Spurrier III wrote
Between Moss, Lloyd and Randle El


You have to consider the difference in QB and new system. They have been inconsistent but, how much were they thrown to. Im not saying they are the “Fun Bunch” but they could be the “New Fun Bunch”. And we all know the 2nd is never as good as the 1st anyway.

Steve Spurrier III wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:For instance with the wide recievers Lloyd,Moss, and Antwan Randle EL.
Another Fun Bunch?

No.

Between Monk, Clark and Sanders (I'm using these three since you specified 1987 and 1991) the Redskins had three legitimate 1000-yard receivers (back when 1000 yards meant something) and arguably two Hall-of-Fame caliber players in Art Monk and the consistently underrated Gary Clark.

Between Moss, Lloyd and Randle El, the Redskins now have one legitimate game-changer in Moss, and two talented but inconsistent players in Lloyd and Randle El. Consider that the highest single-season total between those two players is Brandon Lloyd's 733 in 2005, his third year in the NFL. By their third year in the NFL, Clark and Sanders had registered a combined three 1000-yard seasons - and that includes the strike-shortened 1987 season - Clifford Franklin took precious receptions from both men.

Randle El and Lloyd combined for three touchdown receptions last season. In their sixteen individual season with the Redskins, Clark and Sanders hauled in less than three touchdowns by themselves only once - Sanders rookie season of 1986.

It's not even close. And that's just your first thought - none of those comparisons are valid. My personal favorite is Portis and Betts to Washington and Byner - you do know that not only did Washington and Byner never play together, but that their careers with the Redskins were seperated by four years?

Like I said we have some ways to go before the reach the heights of the great Skins teams of the 80s.

What I was saying is the Personell GIbbs is putting together is similar to the teams he fielded in the 80s. He is basically using the same blueprint.
If you really think about it.

Of course these guys are not the hogs. Samuels, Thomas and Jansen are pretty good Olineman.

All I am saying is that Gibbs is trying to recreate the teams of the 80s in these latter days.

If your telling me that this is not true then take a look for yourself.

And mark my words we will go after two defensive Ends in next years draft.

HEROHAMO wrote:What I was saying is the Personell GIbbs is putting together is similar to the teams he fielded in the 80s. He is basically using the same blueprint.

But that's wrong.

For instance, Chris ey and Don Warren couldn't be more different players. Warren never had half the yards in a single season that ey has produced in 2005 and 2006. ey is a downfield receiving threat, while Warren was a stud blocking H-back.

The only thing in common these players have is the color of their jersey and the positions they play.

Steve Spurrier III wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:What I was saying is the Personell GIbbs is putting together is similar to the teams he fielded in the 80s. He is basically using the same blueprint.

But that's wrong.

For instance, Chris ey and Don Warren couldn't be more different players. Warren never had half the yards in a single season that ey has produced in 2005 and 2006. ey is a downfield receiving threat, while Warren was a stud blocking H-back.

The only thing in common these players have is the color of their jersey and the positions they play.

Geez dude. Well all the position players are not going to be exactly the same. Use your imagination man.

Main point is that Gibbs is putting together a team which is similar to the eightys teams. It does not mean that every player is going to be a carbon copy of each other.

HEROHAMO wrote:Geez dude. Well all the position players are not going to be exactly the same. Use your imagination man.

Main point is that Gibbs is putting together a team which is similar to the eightys teams. It does not mean that every player is going to be a carbon copy of each other.

If your point is that Gibbs is trying to construct a team that roughly consists of players that play the same positions as his early teams, then yes, I guess that's true.

Basically, you're saying that the Redskins are trying to collect good players. This is correct, although not really newsworthy (what team isn't? and thus by your logic, what team isn't trying to "reconstruct" a great team of their past?). But trying to compare this team to the 1987, 1991 or any other previous Gibbs team is shoving a square peg through a round hole. Maybe you need to scale back the imagination.

Steve Spurrier III wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:Geez dude. Well all the position players are not going to be exactly the same. Use your imagination man.

Main point is that Gibbs is putting together a team which is similar to the eightys teams. It does not mean that every player is going to be a carbon copy of each other.

If your point is that Gibbs is trying to construct a team that roughly consists of players that play the same positions as his early teams, then yes, I guess that's true.

Basically, you're saying that the Redskins are trying to collect good players. This is correct, although not really newsworthy (what team isn't? and thus by your logic, what team isn't trying to "reconstruct" a great team of their past?). But trying to compare this team to the 1987, 1991 or any other previous Gibbs team is shoving a square peg through a round hole. Maybe you need to scale back the imagination.

How is trying to compare the 91,87 teams like trying to plug a square peg through a round hole?

Gibbs coached the 87 and 91 teams correct?

Who is coaching the current squad and putting this puzzle together?

Gibbs Correct? So how can you not compare two teams constructed by the same guy? Gibbs.

Gibbs saw the talent then, and he sees the potential talent now.

I said in my first post that they have some ways to go, as far as accomplishing wins and Superbowls that is.

THe personell that is being fielded resembles the teams of the 80s. Or at least Gibbs is trying to do that.

I believe in my team. I also believe in the players Gibbs is fielding.
Obviously you dont think this team will ever achieve the heights that the 87 and 91 Skins reached. Well I do.

I believe in this squad and think it will only get better from here on out. I said it before Ill say it again. We are two defensive ends away from a championship squad. Once this squad starts to develop some comradarie then its all champagne popping.

HEROHAMO wrote:How is trying to compare the 91,87 teams like trying to plug a square peg through a round hole?

Because other than the fact that they wore the same uniforms and featured the same Head Coach, they have nothing in common to our current squad. In fact, Gibbs own role in the team is drastically different from the first time around.

HEROHAMO wrote:Gibbs coached the 87 and 91 teams correct?

Who is coaching the current squad and putting this puzzle together?

Gibbs Correct? So how can you not compare two teams constructed by the same guy? Gibbs.

You can compare, as long as you are also contrasting. Saying the old Redskins had Don Warren and the new Redskins have Chris ey and therefore these two teams are similar or being similarly constructed is just blatantly wrong. If anything the Warren/Cooley comparison proves that Gibbs is doing things differently this time around.

HEROHAMO wrote:Gibbs saw the talent then, and he sees the potential talent now.

I said in my first post that they have some ways to go, as far as accomplishing wins and Superbowls that is.

I never said this team didn't have talent or potential. That hasn't been a problem with this franchise for a decade now.

HEROHAMO wrote:THe personell that is being fielded resembles the teams of the 80s. Or at least Gibbs is trying to do that.

He's trying to collect talent - he's NOT trying to collect talent that resembles the 80's teams. Why that is so hard to comprehend is beyond me.

HEROHAMO wrote:I believe in my team. I also believe in the players Gibbs is fielding.
Obviously you dont think this team will ever achieve the heights that the 87 and 91 Skins reached. Well I do.

That is true, I don't see a championship (let alone two in a five year span) in the near future. But that's not even what I'm trying to point out. I'm not saying those teams were awesome and this team sucks (although that's true). What I am saying is that the personnel is different. And that's not even a bad thing in and of itself, but comparing this team to the past teams isn't useful.

HEROHAMO wrote:I believe in this squad and think it will only get better from here on out. I said it before Ill say it again. We are two defensive ends away from a championship squad. Once this squad starts to develop some comradarie then its all champagne popping.

That's fine. But you can make that argument without using meaningless analogies.

HEROHAMO wrote:THe personell that is being fielded resembles the teams of the 80s. Or at least Gibbs is trying to do that.

Actually, I disagree on this HERO. Our team of the 80s was built offensively around a dominant offensive line. That's why you could switch RB and QBs in and out and still be very productive.

Our defense was built around a strong defensive line. We'd have one or two "star" players in the back 7 (Wilbur Marshall and Darrell Green come to mind), but they'd mostly populate the back 7 with smart players who understood their assignments.

Our team now...is built completely opposite. The offensive line (for the most part) was already in place by the time Gibbs got here, and he's virtually ignored strengthening it (Casey Rabach in, Derrick Dockery out...wash). Our defensive line is the weakest spot on our team.

But we collect linebackers (Washington, McIntosh, Fletcher-Baker all came in), and secondary players (Springs, Taylor, Rogers, Landry).

As for the offensive system? Yes, it's still Gibbs' single back system (for the most part). But the Skins of the 80s and the Skins of now are built very differently imho.

Steve Spurrier III wrote:

HEROHAMO wrote:How is trying to compare the 91,87 teams like trying to plug a square peg through a round hole?

Because other than the fact that they wore the same uniforms and featured the same Head Coach, they have nothing in common to our current squad. In fact, Gibbs own role in the team is drastically different from the first time around.

HEROHAMO wrote:Gibbs coached the 87 and 91 teams correct?

Who is coaching the current squad and putting this puzzle together?

Gibbs Correct? So how can you not compare two teams constructed by the same guy? Gibbs.

You can compare, as long as you are also contrasting. Saying the old Redskins had Don Warren and the new Redskins have Chris ey and therefore these two teams are similar or being similarly constructed is just blatantly wrong. If anything the Warren/Cooley comparison proves that Gibbs is doing things differently this time around.

HEROHAMO wrote:Gibbs saw the talent then, and he sees the potential talent now.

I said in my first post that they have some ways to go, as far as accomplishing wins and Superbowls that is.

I never said this team didn't have talent or potential. That hasn't been a problem with this franchise for a decade now.

HEROHAMO wrote:THe personell that is being fielded resembles the teams of the 80s. Or at least Gibbs is trying to do that.

He's trying to collect talent - he's NOT trying to collect talent that resembles the 80's teams. Why that is so hard to comprehend is beyond me.

HEROHAMO wrote:I believe in my team. I also believe in the players Gibbs is fielding.
Obviously you dont think this team will ever achieve the heights that the 87 and 91 Skins reached. Well I do.

That is true, I don't see a championship (let alone two in a five year span) in the near future. But that's not even what I'm trying to point out. I'm not saying those teams were awesome and this team sucks (although that's true). What I am saying is that the personnel is different. And that's not even a bad thing in and of itself, but comparing this team to the past teams isn't useful.

HEROHAMO wrote:I believe in this squad and think it will only get better from here on out. I said it before Ill say it again. We are two defensive ends away from a championship squad. Once this squad starts to develop some comradarie then its all champagne popping.

That's fine. But you can make that argument without using meaningless analogies.

Warren and ey are both excellent players. I didnt say they were identical twins.

You are totally wrong if you dont think there are any similarities in the old squads and the current squad.

Ill put it this way. Think of Gibbs as an artist. Picaso for example. Picaso painted many pieces in his lifetime. If you were to put all Picaso pieces and compare them to Michael Angelos pieces, you could cleary see the differences between the two. As well as identify which artist painted each piece. Every artist whether great or not has there own signature style, way of painting, colors whatever. The end product resembles the artists mind, experience, emotions whatever.

Same thing with head coaches.

Gibbs, Parcells, Bellicheck, Bill Walsh, Vince Lombardi, Jimmy Johnson. Whoever you want to name. When you have coaches who have influence over who gets drafted and signed. You will always see similarities. From year to year.

Another example. Bill Walsh Drafted Joe Montana, years later he aquired Steve Young wow what a coincidence. They happened to both be scramblers with much the same skills.

Gibbs is not purposely trying to put together a team that resembles the teams in the 80s.

Gibbs is who he is, he likes what he likes in a football player. Which is why it is going to shape out that way.

Gibbs is an artist. I am just waiting for his final masterpiece to be completed.

HEROHAMO wrote:I personally want either Calais Campbell out of Miami or Tyson Jackson out of LSU. THese two beasts would complete the missing pieces to the puzzle. We are Two Defensive Ends away from a Dynasty.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2008DE.php

good thoughts, derrick harvey out of florida and chris long (howies son) from UVA are also great pass rushers

HEROHAMO wrote:Warren and ey are both excellent players. I didnt say they were identical twins.

You said that, "Cooley is our Don Warren." To me, that reads that ey and Warren are similar players. If your point was simply that both teams had good (yet radically different) tight end/h-backs, then you should have made that clear.

But it's fairly obvious that your point was that you thought the players you identified were similar. Otherwise, how would you explain the Campbell/Williams comparison? Why not choose the much more productive Mark Rypien?

HEROHAMO wrote:You are totally wrong if you dont think there are any similarities in the old squads and the current squad.

There are some similarities. Unfortunately, all the ones you tried to identify were wrong.

HEROHAMO wrote:Ill put it this way. Think of Gibbs as an artist. Picaso for example. Picaso painted many pieces in his lifetime. If you were to put all Picaso pieces and compare them to Michael Angelos pieces, you could cleary see the differences between the two. As well as identify which artist painted each piece. Every artist whether great or not has there own signature style, way of painting, colors whatever. The end product resembles the artists mind, experience, emotions whatever.

Same thing with head coaches.

I'll agree that Gibbs is, to a degree, the same "artist". Although you need to remember that in 1987 and 1991, Gibbs was receiving his "paint" from Bobby Beatherd and Charlie Casserly and a good portion of this "painting" was "painted" by Richie Pettibone. Now, Gibbs, along with Snyder, is getting this "paint", and Al Saunders and Gregg Williams are now "painting" their own portions.

HEROHAMO wrote:Gibbs, Parcells, Bellicheck, Bill Walsh, Vince Lombardi, Jimmy Johnson. Whoever you want to name. When you have coaches who have influence over who gets drafted and signed. You will always see similarities. From year to year.

Please. I'd love to see you do a real breakdown of the similarities between the 1959-1967 Packers and the 1969 Redskins. Or for that matter, any of these coaches and their respective squads.

It's also worth noting that these men rarely experienced similar results. Of the men you listed, everyone but Bill Walsh (why did you list him?) was the Head Coach of at least two different teams. Yet none of them were able to win a championship in two places.

HEROHAMO wrote:Another example. Bill Walsh Drafted Joe Montana, years later he aquired Steve Young wow what a coincidence. They happened to both be scramblers with much the same skills.

Joe Montana and Steve Young weren't players with "much the same skills". When are you going to get this? Just because two players had success for the same team under the same coach doesn't make them the same.

Montana had great pocket presence, and could run with the ball if he needed to. Young was an outstanding runner - the kind of guy who probably could have played defensive back had he not been blessed with a great arm. Once Montana became a starter, his highest yards per carry average was 4.7. Young only fell below that mark once in his entire career (1989).

You make it sound like when Walsh decided he needed a quarterback for the future, he looked for a Joe Montana-type player. That's just not true. He found someone who could play, and then adjusted the system to fit his talents. And that's the true test of a coach - he can adjust to his own talent, rather than forcing the talent to adjust to him.

HEROHAMO wrote:Gibbs is not purposely trying to put together a team that resembles the teams in the 80s.

You just said, "Gibbs is putting together a team which is similar to the eightys teams."

HEROHAMO wrote:Gibbs is who he is, he likes what he likes in a football player. Which is why it is going to shape out that way.

Gibbs is an artist. I am just waiting for his final masterpiece to be completed.

Me too. Only I won't be saying that the Mona Lisa looks a whole lot like The Last Supper.

OUCH! As a true fan you had to know comparing Springs to Green was going to get you killed on here... You should know better.

We are getting better but we aren't anywhere near our old teams...NO WAY near!

Good post SSIII... saved me some typing.

Besides, Shawn Springs isn't like Darrell Green - you don't have to give all your money to Springs' foundation to get an autograph or the time of day from him.

BossHog wrote:Good post SSIII... saved me some typing.

Besides, Shawn Springs isn't like Darrell Green - you don't have to give all your money to Springs' foundation to get an autograph or the time of day from him.

HERO: you fail to mention the most important part of ANY previous Redskins' team coached by Gibbs in the 80 and 90s: HEART.

Most of the guys playing for us right now lack this fundamental principle in all of Gibbs earlier teams. All of the great team of eras gone by had a soul and knew well their strenghts and weaknesses. Our current team has no soul and is trying to find out its character.

The only players of the 2007 Redskins I find even remotely comparable to the previous Gibbs teams are ey, Washington, Jansen, Griffin, L.Marsahll, Sellers, Wynn, Thrash, and Betts. All have tremendous heart and rarely complain of the assignments they are given.

El Mexican wrote:HERO: you fail to mention the most important part of ANY previous Redskins' team coached by Gibbs in the 80 and 90s: HEART.

Most of the guys playing for us right now lack this fundamental principle in all of Gibbs earlier teams. All of the great team of eras gone by had a soul and knew well their strenghts and weaknesses. Our current team has no soul and is trying to find out its character.

The only players of the 2007 Redskins I find even remotely comparable to the previous Gibbs teams are ey, Washington, Jansen, Griffin, L.Marsahll, Sellers, Wynn, Thrash, and Betts. All have tremendous heart and rarely complain of the assignments they are given.

That's such a ridiculous "measurement" ... you're saying guys like Moss, Randle El, Thomas, Portis, Taylor, Samuels, Campbell, etcetera, etcetera are complainers? Based on what? Joe Gibbs disagrees with you, for the record.

It looks to me like Gibbs and Bugel and the rest have discarded anyone they thought lacked "heart".

They are building up that core of players who come through when the pressure is hardest, but we can see -- from the Gibbs attitude -- that he thinks he has many already. I keep thinking of a catch that a certain RB, known as "siomply" a runner, made by dragging his elbows as he bounced out of bounds. Or a one-armed tackle that the same RB made during a pre-season game last year. Sure, a meaningless game, and he hurt his shoulder, but it was a tackle made by a winner's instinct.

That instinct matters.

For individuals, I'm sure Gibbs wishes he had a clone of Art Monk and Charles Mann, Joe Jacoby and Jeff Bostic, Monte Coleman and Darrell Green. Oh, and throw in Gary Clark and a few others.

We we can see the model, the template.

Interestingly enough, Jimmy McGinnty also felt heart was the most important attribute a player could have. And without Shane Falco's "miles and miles of heart", the Redskins don't make the playoffs in 1987 and go on to win the Super Bowl.

But seriously, I'm not buying the heart argument either. Try discipline and consistency.

Fios: the jury is still out on the guys you mentioned. I´m still not sold on Moss, Randle El, Thomas. As you well know, they all came via free agency. Yes, they are very good players and one of them had an outstanding season, but have yet to make more than a footnote in Redskins history. Taylor and Samuels have gotten giganormous contracts, so I expect them to at least give it all when they are in uniform. That is not heart, that is being a professional.

Welch: Same goes for Portis. We all know he has our single season rushing record and got injured on a ridicolous preseason play last year. But again, I view that as being a pro. With the salaries this people are receiving, you better do your job well and are expected to do so. I still dont see "that extra something" you could feel with other Gibbs teams.

Ok well ey and Warren are no doubt two different players by far. ey will probably end up being the best tight end the Skins ever had. I am just saying that ey is a stud Warren was a stud.

Ok right now this current squad does not resemble the Redskins of the 80s. I am saying that in two years, they will look almost exactly like the Skins of the 80s.

Granted there are missing pieces. We have some key pieces already in place.

Samuels, Thomas and Jansen. Make up the modern day "Dirtbags". Can they compare to the legendary "Hogs"? Right now no. This Oline is good. Working on becoming great. I personally think we need to draft or aquire another dominant guard. The right side with Jansen and Thomas are formidable. Samuels protecting the blind side of J.C. is excellent as well.

Wide recievers. Moss, Lloyd and Antwan Randle El. Another Fun bunch?
Well no one of the current recievers is anything like Art Monk. All though Moss and Antwan Randle El are both deep threats. Like Sanders and Clark.
Lloyd comes the closest to Monk. As far as what talents he has. THIS CORE OF RECIEVERS HAS SOME WORK TO DO. I believe this season will be a breakout one. It will bring memories of the Fun Bunch.

Running Backs. Portis, Betts, Sellers, and Cartwright? Well Portis is really one of a kind. Betts is your classic smash mouth runner. Another Riggins?Na. I am not gonna say that. He may be close to Byner though.
Sellers is a really good blocker and has some clutch goal line moments. So I really like Sellers.

The Defense. Well this current Dline is certainly not dominant. I believe our DTs are ready to breakout. Defensive End is a real weakness though. This current D line resembles nothing of the eightys Skins. All though I am giving it two years and it will. Manley and Mann? I am hoping this years draft will bring us the defensive ends we so desperatley need.

Darrell Green? Perhaps there will never be another Darrell Green. I am hoping Springs will come close though. One legendary Superbowl performance will help his cause though. Our secondary. We now have a tandem at SS/FS that can possibly go down as the greatest if everything pans out. Our linebackers may be an upgrade though compared to the team of the eightys. Ok so the defense does not look like the team of the eightys at all. I really think we are going after two defensive ends in this years draft. I am really hoping for either Tyson Jackson or Calais Campbell.

Well the defense as of now does not look like the team of the eightys. Clearly the Dline is not dominant. But the secondary has a chance to become dominant.

So right now I would say the offense is shaping into a classic Gibbs team. The Defense has some ways to go. I truly think with two defensive ends this defense will come into form.

I say two years this team will look exactly like the eightys teams. Promise.

I am gonna stick to my guns though. Gibbs is not purposely building a team like the 80s , he is doing this sub conciously.