The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I say that Mark Brunell is not the QB he once was...IS he washed up,NO!

Does he still have gas in the tank?YES.

I have rethought my position on this whole Brunell deal...I have watched mark brunell and many of times ive seen him play scared...anticipating the hit....Well he got that hit...

He had a long,long time to recover and he cannot be scared anymore.

He just walked into a Job that is coveted in sports...the QB of the Redskins may not seem like alot to him now but when he gets to washington that will all change.

He will be playing for a HOF Head coach and he will have the chance to be the QB for the Redskins...Thats an honor.


Brunell's last season as a full time starter, when you consider the lack of talent the Jags had at WR and on the OL, was damn good.



HE has the Skill and know how to walk into washington today and take this job from Ramsey.

Ramsey knows this,or atleast suspects it...This is why everybody is hearing the rumors...The question will be can He bottle his ego and alot of his money and play for you with the possibility of not starting?
The skins are too smart to just let him get all PO'd and not try to defuse the situation..especially with Gibbs at the helm.

Ramsey would benifit from this whole situation...but he would lose money...and we all know that money is just more important to some guys than loyality..**Champ**Coles**..


After having a night to digest this scenario...I chaged my stance...and I apologize if a rattled any cages last night.


This being said....WHo cares what Ramsey wants?The Redskins made the right decision to go get brunell...He still has 2 or 3 good years left as a QB and your team will be better for it.

Add this to the Champ bailey situation(possible picks) and your in good shape...things are staring to turn around already...in the mists of the Ramsey Fiasco....Gibbs has already saved you butt.



*i must also add that if Ramsey can't just except the fact that he has to do what his new HOF HC wants then he can sit or go...but just understnad that the team comes first ...not PRamsey...If he goes.he ISN"T the type of guy you thoought...and you should pass that headache off to someone else.

Ps it was B.Leftwich that pushed Brunell out...Not his decline of talent.

SirSmizzy wrote:Ps it was B.Leftwich that pushed Brunell out...Not his decline of talent.

Some Jaguar fans might say it was Brunell who pushed Brunell out, given his contract dispute with owner Wayne Weaver. I am dubious about that one though.

What I saw was that Weaver hired Jack Del Rio and a new front office, including Personnel guy Shack Harris, and together they made a determination to draft a QB for the future (hopefully) that would play for the next 8-10 years. So the writing was on the wall for Brunell the minute the Jaguars drafted Leftwich.

Why take Leftwich if Brunell had 4-5 years left in him? I believe that Del Rio, Harris, and the Front Office believed that they may never see such a high draft pick after a couple of years. You know, the idea is to win as many games as possible, and if Lumber Jack turned the team around into a playoff contender, the Jaguars wouldn't get the chance to draft so high. So they figured, get a guy like Leftwich now, and rebuild and build and build around him. I can see the logic behind that. (Of course I can, I'm the one making the dang argument.)

But as I have stated, and clearly a number of Jaguar fans would want to burn me at the stake (hopefully at a home tail-gate) for saying so, but I just think that Brunell was on the decline. Does that make him a bad guy? No. Does that make me a bad guy? Yes.

I digress.

Here's an example. Now granted it may be that Brad Meester, our current Center improved dramatically, and Vince Manuwai, the rookie guard was better than expected, but when Leftwich was in, the Jaguars had the fewest sacks allowed than they had previously in a number of years. When Brunell was in, he was getting killed. The biggest concern at the start of last year's season was that our O-line was a sieve and the Jaguar QB was a dead man. But Leftwich stayed in the pocket more and as a result we saw fewer sacks. (Like Leftwich was going anywhere, anyways. He said on ESPN's "Hey Rookie!" that the team nicknamed him, "Michael Brick".)

Brunell was always trying to get out of the pocket once his first receiver, Jimmy Smith, was covered. Now alot would argue that our O-Coordinator, Musgrave, schemed for quick throws for BL, thus avoiding any pressure. Whatever. I just know that the O-line started the season as a liability, and ended the year as one of our best units.

This all with an O-line that includes "Baby Boselli" - Mike Pearson (OLT).

That's just one example in my casebook when it comes to why I believe Brunell was not the QB that some think he is. Why is that again? He looks to get out of trouble too quickly, not going through his reads enough, and dodging the kill-shot. I think he is one concussion away from retirement.

Does this mean I'm calling him soft? No. It means that Brunell is one beat-up dude who knows he needs to avoid the stick or else say bye-bye.

Gibbs' MO, as far as I can detect, is run first and run second. So Brunell may not need have the team resting on his left-arm. But didn't the Skins have all those great receivers over the years, so it's not like Gibbs doesn't throw the ball? Anyway, I've lost whatever point I wanted to make.

I'm done.

[quote="P Onca.]

Why take Leftwich if Brunell had 4-5 years left in him? [/quote]

I said 2 or 3...

I say that Mark Brunell is not the QB he once was...IS he washed up,NO!

Does he still have gas in the tank?YES.

I have rethought my position on this whole Brunell deal...I have watched mark brunell and many of times ive seen him play scared...anticipating the hit....Well he got that hit...

He had a long,long time to recover and he cannot be scared anymore.

He just walked into a Job that is coveted in sports...the QB of the Redskins may not seem like alot to him now but when he gets to washington that will all change.

He will be playing for a HOF Head coach and he will have the chance to be the QB for the Redskins...Thats an honor.


Brunell's last season as a full time starter, when you consider the lack of talent the Jags had at WR and on the OL, was damn good.



HE has the Skill and know how to walk into washington today and take this job from Ramsey.

Ramsey knows this,or atleast suspects it...This is why everybody is hearing the rumors...The question will be can He bottle his ego and alot of his money and play for you with the possibility of not starting?
The skins are too smart to just let him get all PO'd and not try to defuse the situation..especially with Gibbs at the helm.

Ramsey would benifit from this whole situation...but he would lose money...and we all know that money is just more important to some guys than loyality..**Champ**Coles**..


After having a night to digest this scenario...I chaged my stance...and I apologize if a rattled any cages last night.


This being said....WHo cares what Ramsey wants?The Redskins made the right decision to go get brunell...He still has 2 or 3 good years left as a QB and your team will be better for it.

Add this to the Champ bailey situation(possible picks) and your in good shape...things are staring to turn around already...in the mists of the Ramsey Fiasco....Gibbs has already saved you butt.



*i must also add that if Ramsey can't just except the fact that he has to do what his new HOF HC wants then he can sit or go...but just understnad that the team comes first ...not PRamsey...If he goes.he ISN"T the type of guy you thoought...and you should pass that headache off to someone else.

I'm proud of you Smizzy!

After having a night to digest this scenario...I chaged my stance...and I apologize if a rattled any cages last night.

This is a classy post Smizzy. I respect your knowledge of the game and the league and appreciate the fact that you gave this matter a second thought.

Frankly, I'm excited about the Brunell acquisition. I think we have the best 1-2 QB tandem in the NFL. I'm happy Dallas didn't get Brunell -- and I promise you and the Jets will be happy the Skins are not trading Ramsey to Miami!

SirSmizzy wrote:Ramsey knows this,or atleast suspects it...This is why everybody is hearing the rumors...The question will be can He bottle his ego and alot of his money and play for you with the possibility of not starting?
The skins are too smart to just let him get all PO'd and not try to defuse the situation..especially with Gibbs at the helm.

Ramsey would benifit from this whole situation...but he would lose money...and we all know that money is just more important to some guys than loyality..**Champ**Coles**..

I still can't understand how you can argue that Ramsey's ego and greed are flaring when you haven't heard him talk yet. Nobody (Ramsey) said that money was more important than loyalty. I think we need to sit back and wait for Ramsey to tell us what he wants. Only then will I consider Ramsey's ego and greed to be a problem.

Gibbs' Hog wrote:I still can't understand how you can argue that Ramsey's ego and greed are flaring when you haven't heard him talk yet. Nobody (Ramsey) said that money was more important than loyalty. I think we need to sit back and wait for Ramsey to tell us what he wants. Only then will I consider Ramsey's ego and greed to be a problem.

This isn't that hard to grasp....WHy would ramseys agent be having dinner to discuss anything if ther wasn't anyhting to discuss?

Agents may say things without their clients permission but when was the last time you heard of an agents meeting with the owner of the team to discuss anything about his client without his clients approval?

Sexton represents a lot more players than just Ramsey and Snyder makes a habit of trying to 'schmooze' what he feels are 'influential' agents at the combine.

He did it last year and said that he would continue to try to do so, to facillitate better negotiating contracts. There's no reason to believe the meeting has anything to do with Ramsey whatsoever.

Not disputing for one second Sexton will make it a huge topic of conversation though.

Chris Samuels renegotiating would be another likely topic of conversation...

"I just know that the O-line started the season as a liability, and ended the year as one of our best units."

I agree on this point, the OL improved tremendously as the season progressed. The first 3 games they were not playing well together and Brunell got a lot of pressure. Also, J. Smith was suspended, leaving Stokes as his #1 (later cut). You must admit things got better for Leftwich; and please don't say the OL and WR's got better because of Leftwich.

I'm not one of the Jags fans that berated Leftwich, he does have a lot of ability and could be a great QB.

I'm obviously just a huge Brunell fan and am excited that he is getting a fresh start.

Smizzy:

I wasn't referring necessarily to you with the "2-3 years."

I used the 4-5 years because that seemed to be the consensus mileage left on Brunell's treads during the debate us Jaguar fans had last year.

jaw32 wrote:I'm obviously just a huge Brunell fan and am excited that he is getting a fresh start.

So was I, until he became a Redskin.

Ok Smizzy! I rethink my stance too! You are not half bad................for a Jets fan! Very intelligent and well thought out post! I don't agree with you but I still respect your opinion!

Okay Smizzy this is the final straw Your constant bashing of...Oh wait...I just finished reading Your message...Great post SirSmizzy your one of my favorites.

Smiz - good post

I think people will be surprised at how few times PRam OR Brunell get hit.

We have a daggone good line and the Buge will make them better.

Remember young fans and non Skins peoples - In Gibbs' last year we gave up 9 - count 'em - 9 sacks for the entire year.

That was with Mark Rypien throwing more 40+ yard strikes than any other team in the NFL.

It will get better

See, Smizzy ? I knew they'd come around. We're back in business.
Remember who had your back before you were "cool".

LOL - depends on when you consider him becoming cool - I swear I heard him humming Hail to the Redskins

I guess he is cool enough - for a Jets fan ::grin::

Good post smizzy - your are making friends right and left. Sure you aren't a closet Skins fan, we take transfers.

Sorry fella's...I bleed green and i already have it in my will to be buried in my Jets jersey..Unless the jets are Abolished im gonna be a jets fan till i drop....and then some.

Thanaks for the compliments.

Bleed green ?
Argh ! A Vulcan! I knew I saw pointy ears under that helmet in the avatar !

Live long and prosper ::grin::

Gibbs' MO, as far as I can detect, is run first and run second. So Brunell may not need have the team resting on his left-arm. But didn't the Skins have all those great receivers over the years, so it's not like Gibbs doesn't throw the ball?

Sure. Gibbs throws.

Remember that Joe Gibbs arrived from "Air Coryell". He was an offensive coach under Don Coryell at San Diego, which had the most high-powered passing attack that anyone had yet seen in the NFL. Dan Fouts throwing to Kellen Winslow and (I can't remember the two wide receivers).

Joe Gibbs' basic principle is that everything starts from blocking schemes, and line play in general. It is neither run-to-pass nor pass-to-run, but make sure the OL blocks the other guys.

(By the way, my impression was always that Gibbs saw the defensive line and linebackers the same way: the lines are like the engine of a car. You can replace a driver, replace tires, but everything runs from the engine.That's why guys like May, Grimm, Bostic, Jacoby, Warren, The Mann, Grant, Butz, and Olkewicz all played so long.)

In fact, the only stretch when it was "run-first" was that anomolous stretch of playoffs in the Super Bowl 17 season. Art Monk, who should be in the Hall of Fame, broke a toe in the last regular season game making a circus catch for a touchdown. It turned out he had been playing on a cracked toe, but solidly broke it when he dove into the endzone, caught the ball outstretched, then hit and rolled.

The Skins then had only one wide receiver, a little guy named Charlie Brown, plus a couple of small backups (hence, "the Smurfs"). Very Smart football analysts wrote them off.

Mr. Riggins went to Gibbs and said, "just give me the ball and I'll carry you". The OL and Riggins did, and The Hogs became famous.

I expect that Bugel with fix each lineman's technique, and then make them all cohesive.

I can't wait for training camp. Can't wait for pre-season.

Can't wait for your book.
You told me things, just now, that I didn't know.
Glad you're here !

Sir Smizzy wrote:

Sorry fella's...I bleed green and i already have it in my will to be buried in my Jets jersey..Unless the jets are Abolished im gonna be a jets fan till i drop....and then some.

I have lived in New York for nearly 35 years, so I've seen first-hand that "it's not easy being green", as Kermit says.

Loyalty counts, though.

I was 21 before the Senators and Redskins had winning seasons, and about 23 before the Skins got into the playoffs.

That just makes it better.

*****

For fans of odd-connections:

- ABC used to broadcast most NY Titans games into Washington. I'm not sure why, unless they figured that NY was the closest AFL franchise to Washington.

- For most of their history, the only Titans/Jets coach without a losing record was Washington's Sammy Baugh (finished at 50%)

- The Titans first QB was ex-Redskin QB Al Dorrow

- The Titans original owner was Harry Wismer, who had been 20% owner of the Redskins. Wismer was fed up with the way George Preston Marshall ran the Skins, having noticed that Marshall's Redskins never turned a profit, and having noticed, as well, that Marshall had oodles of funny team expenses. The Redskins, for instance, owned a Georgetown townhouse, which it rented to Marshal for a couple dollars a year. I think there was also some scandal about houses in other NFL cities where Marshall had stashed various girlfriends.

The Redskins were rated as being worth about $1 million in 1959.

Wismer could not force Marshall to change, so he asked the lawyer Edward Bennett Williams to find a buyer for his 20%. Williams arranged for Wismer to sell his 20% -- note, that's $200,000 -- to a Canadian department store owner named Jack Kent Cooke.

So the Titans / Jets got their start from Wismer's Redskins stock.

Marshall was an outdated crank by 1960, and that's putting it gently. Around 1962, Marshall had something like a stroke -- coronary thrombosis, maybe, but something that left him completely incapacitated. He had given Williams power-of-attorney, which Williams used to renovate the team and to disinherit Marshall and Marshall's sons.

(Marshall had declared himself a die-hard segregationist, choosing to market the Redskins across the South as "Dixie's team", as a team that would never give in to the civil rights movement. An all-white team. In about the '56 draft, Marshall passed over Jim Brown -- THE Jim Brown -- to take a white fullback from Miami named Don Bosseler. The Univeristy of Maryland's great head coach, Jim Tatum, had called Brown "the best football player I have ever seen", but Marshall ignored him.)

Williams proceeded to push the Marshall family out. He dumped the fake team expenses, and, golly, it turned out that the team was profitable. Each year, Williams used the profits to buy Marshall's shares of stock, leaving Cooke's shares. Each year, Marshall's former 80% got smaller, and Cooke's $200,000 share of 20% got bigger. By the time Marshall died, Cooke owned nearly the entire team, without ever investing anything more than his original $200,000. Williams was team president, and ran things.

And, the upside of this snakey dealing, was that the Redskins acquired Bobby Mitchell, Charlie Taylor, other black players, and began behaving like a real team again. Consider Vince Lombardi, George Allen, and the team we know.

As I said, all from Harry Wismer's original stake, which went to start the Titans/Jets.

(By the way, this comes from David Harris's _The League: the Rise and Decline of the NFL_.)