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The next time someone tries to tell you this nation was founded on "christian principles", try sharing one of these.....

The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion”
--George Washington

“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man”
--Thomas Jefferson

"The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
--Abraham Lincoln

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies."
--Thomas Jefferson

"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!'"--John Adams

“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.”
-James Madison

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
--James Madison

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history."
--James Madison

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
--John Adams

"That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words."
--Ethan Allen

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."--Thomas Paine
(The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY))

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."--James Madison

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."--James Madison
(The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.)

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion... has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."--Benjamin Franklin
(Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1970.)

"The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."--Thomas Jefferson
(Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.)

"[...] denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian."--Ethan Allen
(Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.))

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
--James Madison

"No man on Earth has less taste or talent for criticism than myself, and the least and last of all should I undertake to criticize works on the Apocalypse (Revelations). It was between fifty and sixty years since I read it and then I considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy, nor capable of explanation than the incoherence of our own nightly dreams."
--Thomas Jefferson

"The Christian god can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." --Thomas Jefferson

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, ratified in 1797:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

ATV, you've failed to distinguish between Christian morals or principles and the Christian religion, and conflated the two. . .

Although the next time someone tries to tell you that the government has authority to promote universal health care, seize money from Americans in taxes, regulate businesses, run public schooling, give special privileges to favored businesses through subsidies. . .

Thomas Jefferson:

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

"The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits."

"No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him."

"To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father’s has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association—the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

"I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious." (c. the early 19th century!)

"I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive."

"The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society."

"Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread."

"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add “within the limits of the law,” because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

"I have never been able to conceive how any rational being could propose happiness to himself from the exercise of power over others."

"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

"Most bad government has grown out of too much government."

"A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."

"A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate."

"The right of self-government does not comprehend the government of others."



Thomas Paine:

"Society in every state is a blessing, but government, even in its best stage, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one."

"That government is best which governs least."

"The instant formal government is abolished, society begins to act. A general association takes place, and common interest produces common security."

"To say that any people are not fit for freedom, is to make poverty their choice, and to say they had rather be loaded with taxes than not."


Benjamin Franklin: "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."



This country was not founded on the Christian religion. . .or belief in the State. . .too bad we're still holding on to the latter.

So what was the purpose of this thread? To clarify that the nation was not built on the said religion or to attack the religion?

I personally see quite a bit of both.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:So what was the purpose of this thread? To clarify that the nation was not built on the said religion or to attack the religion?

I personally see quite a bit of both.

My guess is that ATV has experienced people (as Christians) claiming certain things about the founding fathers that he wanted to refute to a general audience.

you've failed to distinguish between Christian morals or principles and the Christian religion, and conflated the two

If you read the quotes, I don't think that's a very large leap. What else would these Founding Fathers have had to say to demonstrate their feelings on christianity and it's role in government?

ATV wrote:

you've failed to distinguish between Christian morals or principles and the Christian religion, and conflated the two

If you read the quotes, I don't think that's a very large leap. What else would these Founding Fathers have had to say to demonstrate their feelings on christianity and it's role in government?

It's a philosophical leap, period. I don't think that one should conflate things that are properly understood as distinct.

If this government was founded on principles that can be considered traditionally Christian (respect for other's lives, liberty, and property; people having natural rights bestowed by a Creator; respect for human dignity; a right for people to choose their own religion and have privacy in that, etc.), then it can be claimed that the nation was founded upon a Christian tradition.

Nothing that you have quoted contradicts any of those ideas, and those ideas are precisely those that were preserved and upheld by a long tradition in the Catholic church and later through protestant groups. (This is not to say that all Catholics and Protestants always believed each one of these, as is obvious, but I can still point to a Christian tradition that was the ONLY tradition upholding these liberal principles at different times in history. In addition, there have in every period always been at least some Christians upholding these ideas on the basis and tradition of their faith.)

Are these ideas of liberty the essence of Christian faith? No. Are they traditionally Christian in some sense? Yes. Would the founders have fought to keep faith separate from governance? Yes. Would they have fought to keep these principles out of government? No -- they fought to include them!

The first two sentences of the Declaration of Independence (authored by Mr. Jefferson) highlights traditionally Christian principles without attaching it to the faith itself:

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Jefferson's philosophy comes straight out of the classical liberal tradition, which has its roots in late scholastic theology and philosophy (a Christian tradition). You can find all of those ideas affirmed in scripture, and Christians throughout the ages have upheld them.

Again, we're dealing with a distinction between the practice of faith and principles of human interaction.

Has that made the distinction any more clear?

But there has been far too much conflation of the notion that borrowing from principles espoused by Christianity equates with this being a Christian nation. Jefferson in particular wanted to be clear about that distinction.

To quote one of the founding fathers of my country: "Ugh"

This speech was made as the first Briton dragged his mate back to the cave after returning from the pub (obviously, the pub was there even before the first settlers).

May I congratulate Fios for placing the words conflation and espoused into the same sentence? Good work, my friend.

A lot of the early founding fathers were Deists, who believed that there was a God who created humanity, but did not interfere in the humanity he created.

I don't get the point of this. Is this supposed to surprise somebody? I mean obviously the constant government instability based on differences in religion, and Parliament struggling with Kings and the Church of England, was some of the grounds for the colonists to leave. So it only makes sense that they aren't going to have good things to say about religion mixing with government. Hence separation of Church and State. Of course some were just Puritans or something but they saw how religion ruined the Government system in England. And yes some were deists.

brad7686 wrote:I don't get the point of this. Is this supposed to surprise somebody? I mean obviously the constant government instability based on differences in religion, and Parliament struggling with Kings and the Church of England, was some of the grounds for the colonists to leave. So it only makes sense that they aren't going to have good things to say about religion mixing with government. Hence separation of Church and State. Of course some were just Puritans or something but they saw how religion ruined the Government system in England. And yes some were deists.

Is it at all ironic that, whilst separation of church and state is such a big "thing" in the US, religion still plays a huge role in the prospects of presidential candidates, but church and religion plays absolutely no part in politics in the UK? I just find it puzzling.

I have no clue about the answer to this, but does anybody know the last time the US had an openly agnostic or atheist president? Has it happened?

Is it at all ironic that, whilst separation of church and state is such a big "thing" in the US, religion still plays a huge role in the prospects of presidential candidates, but church and religion plays absolutely no part in politics in the UK?

Yes.

I just find it puzzling.

I find it sad.

If you guys don't believe in devine intervention, how did humans get here?

Nobody knows.

UK Skins Fan wrote:

brad7686 wrote:I don't get the point of this. Is this supposed to surprise somebody? I mean obviously the constant government instability based on differences in religion, and Parliament struggling with Kings and the Church of England, was some of the grounds for the colonists to leave. So it only makes sense that they aren't going to have good things to say about religion mixing with government. Hence separation of Church and State. Of course some were just Puritans or something but they saw how religion ruined the Government system in England. And yes some were deists.

Is it at all ironic that, whilst separation of church and state is such a big "thing" in the US, religion still plays a huge role in the prospects of presidential candidates, but church and religion plays absolutely no part in politics in the UK? I just find it puzzling.

I have no clue about the answer to this, but does anybody know the last time the US had an openly agnostic or atheist president? Has it happened?

It is very ironic. I can't remember an openly unreligious president. Most of this country is still religious, and under the party system of course you have to appeal to your constituents. I do however think most presidents can keep religion out of their decisions. Some not so much. I think this country has become more about gaining votes than improving things. That is why we are in such bad shape politically. It's sad.

Cappster wrote:If you guys don't believe in devine intervention, how did humans get here?

That wasn't the point I was making. Just curious about the contrast between our two nations' approach to politics and religion.

No need to turn this into a Darwin v God debate, or similar.

UK Skins Fan wrote:

Cappster wrote:If you guys don't believe in devine intervention, how did humans get here?

That wasn't the point I was making. Just curious about the contrast between our two nations' approach to politics and religion.

No need to turn this into a Darwin v God debate, or similar.

Bigot!!


I believe that you have to go back to the 19th century to find a president who didn't officially identify with a Christian denomination. In my personal opinion, few of our presidents (whatever their publicly proclaimed affiliations) were actually Christians.

I wonder if the difference is that Britain is a bit more post-religious than America. What I'm thinking is that this is simply reflected in the actual politics while, ironically, the age-old tradition of having a state-religion marriage still stands. . .if only in the official and symbolic sense.