The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I think next year we have to start relying on the Draft. I hate how we have been evaluating the Free Agent talent and giving these guys tons of money and when they get here, they don't do crap!

These guys are taking the money and sitting on their laurels. Gibbs needs to start looking at the draft as a benefit in the near future, instead of relying on Free Agents.

Look at what the Bears have done with all their draft picks. 80% of their starters have been drafted the last 3 years.

All I see is these broke ass players that we got this year, that dont give a damm about winning.

Can't argue with using the draft more but we don't have many picks this year so if the Skins want to fill holes before next year, they'll need to pick up some free agents. I hope they keep all their 2008 picks.

You've portrayed all their free agents as busts -- I'd argue that CB Springs, LB Washington, DT Griffin, OG Thomas have all done very well for us.

Welcome aboard.

Welcome aboard.... I like the name

I agree with what was said ^^^^.
If most major holes are filled in FA I'd look at trading down the first pick and getting more. (I don't think our front office understands tthe concept of trading down)

you have a point dude. one guy i wanna see in burgundy in gold:
DE Lamar Woodley Michigan

I like Springs, Griffin, Thomas and Washington. I think the Free Agents they got this year have been brutal.

Even Mel Kiper Jr. has tried to point out that the Redskins sometimes rely to much on Free Agents and they dont put the effort into the draft and trying to evaluate good talent from the draft.

What i'm trying to say to Dan Snyder is, stop throwing money around, and EVALUATE THE TALENT from these free agents. We dont need to get free agents, just to get them.

We need to sign some free agents. We don't have enough draft picks. Then again even if we did you hate to start rookies too fast.

But, I hope we end the 30 million contract route and sign mid tier free agents with salary over bonus so we can cut them if they suck.

There's a lot of great defensive players that I would love to get from next years draft that would look great in this Gregg Williams aggresive defense.

1niksder wrote:Welcome aboard.... I like the name

I agree with what was said ^^^^.
If most major holes are filled in FA I'd look at trading down the first pick and getting more. (I don't think our front office understands tthe concept of trading down)

Our F/O will mess around and give someone our 2008 1st round pick just to enter negotiations on trading down for the 2007 pick.

I don't know. The fans are screaming for use in the draft not to mention Arch was such a big letdown this year, I would imagine that the coaches are going to have a say about the draft. There are some decent guys in the later rounds. Nobody in the first that will be available for us that would demand a top 10 pick.

I will trust in whatever direction Gibbs wants to go. FA or draft, it doesn't really matter to me. I just hope they don't spend a lot of money on whoever they get.

Welcome to the boards - I agree with you to a certain extent but I would also say that you are a little harsh about "all" of our free agent pick ups. Some have worked out okay and some are looking very good.

I also would hope that Gibbs and whoever is making any football decisions to do exactly the opposite of what Kiper or any media type suggests. I think we have seen what happens when some of these players get hyped by the media and we end up with the short end.

I cannot argue with those coaches and managers that like to get players with experience over the chance of working with the draft but the Redskins need to get some young guys here and that is only possible through keeping and using your draft picks.

I hope our talent evaluators do a better job this year.

SO. CAL. SKIN DUDE wrote:Problem is that any potential FA's (and their greedy agents) know that the Danster will open that wallet wide... so they negotiate for "above" market salaries.

I say first priority is to give current Redskins who show potential the money... keep that continuity going, etc. After that use selctive FA's and then draft based on needs, etc.

I like Randal El, Lloyd, Vincent, and now Carter. These guys are starting to pay off. Only Arch is a flop amoung the big name guys. The percentage is pretty good; and face it, we can't fill our holes for next season with the draft.
We can probably get a top DE in the draft. That will leaves us a MLB and a CB short.

Redskins1 wrote:I think next year we have to start relying on the Draft. I hate how we have been evaluating the Free Agent talent and giving these guys tons of money and when they get here, they don't do crap!

These guys are taking the money and sitting on their laurels. Gibbs needs to start looking at the draft as a benefit in the near future, instead of relying on Free Agents.

Look at what the Bears have done with all their draft picks. 80% of their starters have been drafted the last 3 years.

All I see is these broke ass players that we got this year, that dont give a damm about winning.

I'm always suspicious of posts that complain about broad ideas instead of naming specifics.

Some trades and free agent players:

Lloyd, Randel El, Moss, Portis, Randy Thomas, Rabach, Wade, Griffin, Daniels, Springs, Marcus Washington, Andre Carter, Troy Vincent, Vernon Fox, Kenny Wright. In other words, half of our secondary, half of our offensive line, all of our receivers, our star RB, our best LB, and half of the defensive line are either FA acquisitions or trades.

Who makes the most money on the Skins' roster? The three players with the biggest cap his this year are Brunell, Jansen, and Sammuels. Two of them are draft picks.

Exactly who are all these unnamed guys that you think are sitting on the bench and rotting? Adam Archuleta is the one true bust that I can think of from this past season, and the only 'star' FA acquisition that isn't contributing to the team. The other questionable move is the cost of acquiring T.J. Duckett.


Do the names Manuel White, Jim Molinaro, Robert McCune, Jared Newberry, Nehemiah Broughton, Mark Wilson, Anthony Montgomery, Reed Doughty, Lefotu Kili, and Kevin Simon ring a bell? It's not as if the Skins have simply thrown away their draft picks since Gibbs' return -- a lot of our picks simply haven't worked out in the home-run, 'diamond in the rough' way that you seem to expect they will.

Irn-Bru wrote:

Redskins1 wrote:I think next year we have to start relying on the Draft. I hate how we have been evaluating the Free Agent talent and giving these guys tons of money and when they get here, they don't do crap!

These guys are taking the money and sitting on their laurels. Gibbs needs to start looking at the draft as a benefit in the near future, instead of relying on Free Agents.

Look at what the Bears have done with all their draft picks. 80% of their starters have been drafted the last 3 years.

All I see is these broke ass players that we got this year, that dont give a damm about winning.

I'm always suspicious of posts that complain about broad ideas instead of naming specifics.

Some trades and free agent players:

Lloyd, Randel El, Moss, Portis, Randy Thomas, Rabach, Wade, Griffin, Daniels, Springs, Marcus Washington, Andre Carter, Troy Vincent, Vernon Fox, Kenny Wright. In other words, half of our secondary, half of our offensive line, all of our receivers, our star RB, our best LB, and half of the defensive line are either FA acquisitions or trades.

Who makes the most money on the Skins' roster? The three players with the biggest cap his this year are Brunell, Jansen, and Sammuels. Two of them are draft picks.

Exactly who are all these unnamed guys that you think are sitting on the bench and rotting? Adam Archuleta is the one true bust that I can think of from this past season, and the only 'star' FA acquisition that isn't contributing to the team. The other questionable move is the cost of acquiring T.J. Duckett.


Do the names Manuel White, Jim Molinaro, Robert McCune, Jared Newberry, Nehemiah Broughton, Mark Wilson, Anthony Montgomery, Reed Doughty, Lefotu Kili, and Kevin Simon ring a bell? It's not as if the Skins have simply thrown away their draft picks since Gibbs' return -- a lot of our picks simply haven't worked out in the home-run, 'diamond in the rough' way that you seem to expect they will.

Those are some good points in defense of free agency. I don't see this as an either/or proposition, but rather, one of those cases in which a team wants balance (like the pass and the run). The Redskins have overvalued free agency and need to pull back, but shouldn't abandon it completely. Good, proven players can be found in free agency, but as others have noted, they sometimes don't work out for new teams, can be expensive, and are obviously older than rookies. I won't mind if the 'skins pick up a few free agents in '07, but I'd like to see them keep the pics we've got left, and try to find some value and depth in the draft.

Irn-Bru wrote: It's not as if the Skins have simply thrown away their draft picks since Gibbs' return -- a lot of our picks simply haven't worked out in the home-run, 'diamond in the rough' way that you seem to expect they will.

I have a few questions.

1. Why do other teams consistently (ravens, Pats) have success using the draft?
2. Why do the Redskins seem to have so much trouble?
3. Since the Skins have gone almost exclusively F/A how has it positively effected the Win column?

2005, we sparingly used the F/A market.

Mursilis wrote:Those are some good points in defense of free agency. I don't see this as an either/or proposition, but rather, one of those cases in which a team wants balance (like the pass and the run). The Redskins have overvalued free agency and need to pull back, but shouldn't abandon it completely. Good, proven players can be found in free agency, but as others have noted, they sometimes don't work out for new teams, can be expensive, and are obviously older than rookies. I won't mind if the 'skins pick up a few free agents in '07, but I'd like to see them keep the pics we've got left, and try to find some value and depth in the draft.

I agree -- draft weekend is a lot more exciting when the Skins have more than 1 pick per day! These are good points, and I agree with what you are saying.


CLL, you raise some excellent points, too.

I have a few questions.

1. Why do other teams consistently (ravens, Pats) have success using the draft?

The Patriots, Ravens (although I have to interject with the name "Kyle Boller" here), and a few other teams have done very well for themselves in the draft. I believe that the 'why' behind it is in the ogranization. In the same way, we could ask why certain teams seem to win a lot.

How bad have the Skins really been with the draft? I'm no expert, but I'd say that we fall in the mediocre to decent category when we do have picks. We have found one or two later-round gems (Cooley [3rd round, not incredibly late], Golston) and our high picks tend to do well (Taylor, Campbell, Rogers [I'll defend him if I have to]). There are some players (Montgomery, Doughty, McIntosh) that might still pan out and vindicate our talent evaluators.

We're not franchise-building drafters, but we've been effective at times.

2. Why do the Redskins seem to have so much trouble?

I don't know. My guess is that it's part FO organization and scouting ability (or lack thereof), partly the result of only having a few draft picks to work with, and part luck.

3. Since the Skins have gone almost exclusively F/A how has it positively effected the Win column?

Gibbs' first season at 6-10 looked far more solid than Spurrier's 7-9 year -- we lost 10 games but you could see the team turning the corner. We went to the second round in the playoffs on the backs of our FA pickups in the following year.

Look at our FA pickups and see if there isn't far more good than bad. Our biggest mistakes were players that we let go, not players that we brought in. What enduring draft picks have the Skins had in the last 6 or 7 years? I can think of Jansen, Sammuels, Marshall, Betts, Dockery, ey, and Taylor. The list of failed draft picks is far longer. . .Rod Gardner, anyone?

I read an interesting article in ESPN Magazine yesterday about the Ravens' Adelius Thomas (seems like a great Gibbs guy - talented, with character - if the rumors are true that we're looking at him in free agency, he might be a nice pick-up), in which the author also went into some discussion about the Ravens' scouting organization. The author noted that the team was one of the few (~5 or so) that didn't subscribe to one of the big scouting services, and instead developed and trained their own scouts, mostly young college interns who showed promise. They even had a special school to teach them what the Ravens wanted in a player. To find 'value' guys, they tried to find unheralded players who hadn't peaked yet, but had athletic ability and were coachable. Interesting approach, and obviously, it's paid off more than not.

Yes, I read the same article and mentioned the scouting tidbit about a week ago. We need to copy the ravens big time, I dont care how much people hate them. They have a proven formula, it works and its gets them in the playoffs consistently.

Free Agency has gotten the Redskins NO WHERE.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Yes, I read the same article and mentioned the scouting tidbit about a week ago. We need to copy the ravens big time, I dont care how much people hate them. They have a proven formula, it works and its gets them in the playoffs consistently.

Free Agency has gotten the Redskins NO WHERE.

Now now, part of the reason the Ravens have improved from last season's 6-10 is the pick-up of FREE AGENT Steve McNair ahead of inconsistent DRAFT PICK Kyle Boller. Likewise, FREE AGENT Drew Brees, complimented by DRAFT PICK Reggie Bush, has helped turn New Orleans around. It's all about balance - using both free agency and the draft to build a team. The Redskins just need to take a step or two back in free agency and put a little more emphasis on the draft.

There's such a delicate balance you need to strike between getting the RIGHT free agents (both in number and in need) to maintain a competitive edge and using the draft to build depth and develop your own stars.

We all know what happened with AA. You could argue that while last year's need was addressed at WR, they didn't need to get two. Carter's shown me some real fight in the last 3-4 games.

I think -- I truly want to believe this to be true -- that they've begun to scale back their manic spree through Football Players 'R Us.

RedskinsFreak wrote:There's such a delicate balance you need to strike between getting the RIGHT free agents (both in number and in need) to maintain a competitive edge and using the draft to build depth and develop your own stars.

We all know what happened with AA. You could argue that while last year's need was addressed at WR, they didn't need to get two. Carter's shown me some real fight in the last 3-4 games.

I think -- I truly want to believe this to be true -- that they've begun to scale back their manic spree through Football Players 'R Us.

This is going to be an interesting off season. I hope it's a judicious one, not another splash one. I hope we never hear the Skins won the Spring Bowl or whatever it is they always say.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
1. Why do other teams consistently (ravens, Pats) have success using the draft?
2. Why do the Redskins seem to have so much trouble?
3. Since the Skins have gone almost exclusively F/A how has it positively effected the Win column?

2005, we sparingly used the F/A market.

1. The Skins do just as well as every other team in the draft. The Pats and Skins both needed a Tight End a few years back Gibbs past on KW2 and he was off the board when NE picked, they went with Ben Watson who is starting to play pretty good lately. Gibbs got ey who stepped up day 1.
2. The Skins don't have trouble selecting players, they just don't put a lot of value on draft picks (unless they can get a "proven" player). The picks that we keep seem to be used correctly since Gibbs returned.
3. They haven't gone exclusively FA, they just appear to be going overboard the first week of FA. Gibbs has been here three years and has traded quite a few picks but he has done well with the ones he still has come April. 2004 he got two starters in ey and Taylor, came back with two more in 2005 with Rogers and now JC. 2006 was watered down due to the trading of picks but it looks like Golston will be a starter soon and I still hold out hope for Rocky, Montgomery may never be a starter but he will add depth for years to come. Guys like Robert McCune and John Kersey have been signed to active roster of other teams but they were Joe Gibbs draft picks.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:We need to copy the ravens big time, I dont care how much people hate them. They have a proven formula, it works and its gets them in the playoffs consistently..

Read John Feinstein's Next Man Up. Excellent read, and you get an idea why the Ravens draft so well. Well, except for Boller and WRs...

Mursilis wrote:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Yes, I read the same article and mentioned the scouting tidbit about a week ago. We need to copy the ravens big time, I dont care how much people hate them. They have a proven formula, it works and its gets them in the playoffs consistently.

Free Agency has gotten the Redskins NO WHERE.

Now now, part of the reason the Ravens have improved from last season's 6-10 is the pick-up of FREE AGENT Steve McNair ahead of inconsistent DRAFT PICK Kyle Boller. Likewise, FREE AGENT Drew Brees, complimented by DRAFT PICK Reggie Bush, has helped turn New Orleans around. It's all about balance - using both free agency and the draft to build a team. The Redskins just need to take a step or two back in free agency and put a little more emphasis on the draft.

The Skins go mostly through free agency and sprinkle on draft picks.

Most other teams mostly go through the draft and sprinkle on F/A's.