The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

This serves as another excellent example for the why the Redskins of the early/mid-to-late nineties usually sucked. It's a wonder they weren't worse. What a failure....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hau8uGPiCDw

Vince Young has less TD's than INT's and about 50% completions.

So what?

Mario Williams is looking like a solid player, I don't see anything wrong at all with taking Williams number one overall and not Vince Young.

Especially since Carr has a completion percentage near 70 and many more touchdown throws.

Vince Young looks like nothing more than an average QB... his ceiling is just not that high.

I agree with taking Williams over Young also. Its tough to find a stellar DE and Carr has finally become a good QB.

DL almost never make an imoact their first year. Jevon Kearse is the only DL that I can remember that actually looked like a stud his first year. Name me a DL that was drafted in that first round that actually live up to his promiss the first year. Even Julious Peppers looked like a bust his first year and was only above average his second season.

What your forgetting is that the team with the first pick has the right to negotiate with there probable first pick. Houston couldn't get a deal done with Bush so they worked it out with Williams. I remember a certain LB who said he wouldn't sign with the Browns if they took him first...we all know how that turned out. The argument should be...that the Texans should have taken Bush anyway and traded him...That's strategy worked will for San Diego!

(wipes forehead) Geez... for a minute there I thought this thread was going to say something like "bring Charlie Casserly back as Skins new GM". Thank God... cause I'd been like...
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!"

Question:

"What if Houston did draft Young and he got the same lack of receivers, line and running game like David Carr did?" Then what???

I thought that Carr's first two years were pretty decent given what he was given to work with. But now, IMO, he has suffered the same fate as Ramsey did under Spurrier. Lack of a line to protect him and lack of a running game to give him some relief. It doesn't matter who you put behind that line, if they can't block and give the QB time, he will suffer Carr's same fate.

It's funny how you are hearing all of the woulda-coulda-shoulda's after the fact when things go wrong. They should have took Vince Young.... They should have took Reggie Bush..... In my opinion, Bush and Young are in the perfect positions for them. Bush has the benefit of a decent line, an all-pro QB, a pretty good RB to play behind, and a good HC. He's not being asked to be an every-down back right now and that's good for him to really learn and adjust to the speed of the NFL. Young has a good situation also even though they are struggling. He's not getting killed back there like Carr and Fisher is allowing him to do what he did at Texas....

who cares about Vince Young's stats, he wins, oh wait he doesn't win pretty. Who cares, he wins, he's a winner, Vince isn't in a perfect situation, but he makes the best with what he has. Stop using stats to degrade Vince, he has proven that he can win, look at the Titans record with him as a starter this year vs the Titans record without him as a starter. That says it all I don't care how many touchdowns or int's he has thrown, that is the most important stat.

Yea,....ridiculous arguments - Not worth rebutting, really. I'll simply rely on time to continue revealing what a horrendous choice that was.

I'm more surprised to find there are still Casserly apologists among us. What else does a guy have to do to demonstrate his ineptitude?

Drafting Williams over Bush and Young was idiotic. Williams isn't, and most likely will never be, in the same league as guys like Kearse and Peppers. Young and Bush, on the other hand, have the talent and potential to be among the top players in the entire NFL, not just at their position.

skinsfan#33 wrote:DL almost never make an imoact their first year. Jevon Kearse is the only DL that I can remember that actually looked like a stud his first year. Name me a DL that was drafted in that first round that actually live up to his promiss the first year. Even Julious Peppers looked like a bust his first year and was only above average his second season.

Some recent 1st round DL:

2005:
Houston Travis Johnson DE Florida State
Minnesota Erasmus James DE Wisconsin
Dallas Marcus Spears DE Louisiana State
San Diego Luis Castillo DE Northwestern
Philadelphia Mike Patterson DT Southern California

2004:
New Orleans Will Smith DE Ohio State
Minnesota Kenechi Udeze DE Southern California
New England Vince Wilfork DT Miami
Seattle Marcus Tubbs DT Texas

2003:
Minnesota Kevin Williams DT Oklahoma State
Baltimore Terrell Suggs DE Arizona State
New England Ty Warren DE Texas A&M
Chicago Michael Haynes DE Penn State
Philadelphia Jerome McDougle DE Miami
Arizona Calvin Pace DE Wake Forest
N.Y. Giants William Joseph DT Miami

2002
Carolina Julius Peppers DE North Carolina
Kansas City Ryan Sims DT North Carolina
Jacksonville John Henderson DT Tennessee
Indianapolis Dwight Freeney DE Syracuse
Arizona Wendell Bryant DT Wisconsin
Tennessee Albert Haynesworth DT Tennessee
N.Y. Jets Bryan Thomas DE Ala.-Birmingham
New Orleans Charles Grant DE Georgia



My memory is a bit too Redskin-centric to tell how many of these guys were 1st or 2nd year impact players. Can anyone give a brief analysis?

ATV wrote:Yea,....ridiculous arguments - Not worth rebutting, really. I'll simply rely on time to continue revealing what a horrendous choice that was.

I'm more surprised to find there are still Casserly apologists among us. What else does a guy have to do to demonstrate his ineptitude?

I know, Desmond Howard, Micheal Westbroke, Andre Johnson, Heath Shuler, Stubblefield, Wilkinson, Tom Carter, he made mistake after mistake.

Vince Young has less TD's than INT's and about 50% completions.

So what?

Mario Williams is looking like a solid player, I don't see anything wrong at all with taking Williams number one overall and not Vince Young.

Especially since Carr has a completion percentage near 70 and many more touchdown throws.

Vince Young looks like nothing more than an average QB... his ceiling is just not that high.

Why are you comparing a veteran QB to Vince Young?

Young is a winner, he is a rookie and he is 6-2 as a starter...he's lead his team to 3 4th quarter comeback wins as a rookie.

How can you say his ceiling is not high...he's a friggin rookie. How is that comment justified with what he has already done in just 8 games.

There are two parts of the NFL game...winning and selling tickets. Vince Young is a Houston native, Texas grad...and a winner...he would have sold tickets and he is a wnner.

Bush is the same deal...he is a winner and contributor.

Skinsfan55 wrote:Vince Young looks like nothing more than an average QB... his ceiling is just not that high.

Do you bother thinking or do you just post? He's thrown ONE more INT than TDs, (11-10) he's a rookie and he has the Titans, of all teams, sitting at 6-7, including a 3-1 mark against the vaunted NFC East. If they werean NFC team, they'd be in the thick of the playoff hunt. Peyton Manning threw 26 picks, completed only 55% of his passes and posted a rating of 71 his rookie season. I suppose his ceiling isn't all that high either.

John Manfreda wrote:

ATV wrote:Yea,....ridiculous arguments - Not worth rebutting, really. I'll simply rely on time to continue revealing what a horrendous choice that was.

I'm more surprised to find there are still Casserly apologists among us. What else does a guy have to do to demonstrate his ineptitude?

I know, Desmond Howard, Micheal Westbroke, Andre Johnson, Heath Shuler, Stubblefield, Wilkinson, Tom Carter, he made mistake after mistake.

Boy, what a group of names. First let me say I am not a Casserly fan, but he let his head coach decide who to take in the first round.
Desmond was a Gibbs' pick, Tom Carter was Pettibone's (and by the way he played way better in his first two years than C Rog), Westbrooke was Norv's (but everyone thought that he was going to be a stud), Heath was Norv's choice too, I wish Wilkerson never left - he played very well - he just didn't play great! Not a draft pick, but a trade of a draft pick for big Daddy.

But the worst move ever made by the Redskins was giving up the 6th pick in the 2nd round and a high 3rd round pick to move up 7 spots to select Andre Johnson and they could have gotten him where they sat in the 2nd round.
What makes this move the worst - HE NEVER DRESSED A GAME! Not, he never played. He never even made the active list and was cut the following year. I thought that they were trading up to take Mike Alstot, who would have been a great fit for Norv.

HE NEVER DRESSED A GAME!

Uh, refresh my memory - Was that Andre Johnson?

ATV wrote:

HE NEVER DRESSED A GAME!

Uh, refresh my memory - Was that Andre Johnson?

Yes! I guess I did leave out the "he" I was talking about. Andre Johnson never made an active roster for any game for the Skins, but I was wrong he dressed 1 game for Detroit in 97 and 3 in 98. Mind you we drafted him in the 1st round in 96.

By the way why does everyone talk bad about Tom Carter. All he did in the 4 years with the Skins is lead the team in INTs 3 of the 4 years. The one year he only had 3, Andre Collins lead the team with 4. Carter had 18 INTs in his 4 years with the Skins. 9 his first two years! Hear that Carlos! 6 INTs on a 4-12 team. 3 on a 3-13 team. 4 on a 6-10 team. 5 on a 9-7 team. Yeah, that guy sucks! I glad we don't have anyone like that here now!

skinsfan#33 wrote:

John Manfreda wrote:

ATV wrote:Yea,....ridiculous arguments - Not worth rebutting, really. I'll simply rely on time to continue revealing what a horrendous choice that was.

I'm more surprised to find there are still Casserly apologists among us. What else does a guy have to do to demonstrate his ineptitude?

I know, Desmond Howard, Micheal Westbroke, Andre Johnson, Heath Shuler, Stubblefield, Wilkinson, Tom Carter, he made mistake after mistake.

Boy, what a group of names. First let me say I am not a Casserly fan, but he let his head coach decide who to take in the first round.
Desmond was a Gibbs' pick, Tom Carter was Pettibone's (and by the way he played way better in his first two years than C Rog), Westbrooke was Norv's (but everyone thought that he was going to be a stud), Heath was Norv's choice too, I wish Wilkerson never left - he played very well - he just didn't play great! Not a draft pick, but a trade of a draft pick for big Daddy.

But the worst move ever made by the Redskins was giving up the 6th pick in the 2nd round and a high 3rd round pick to move up 7 spots to select Andre Johnson and they could have gotten him where they sat in the 2nd round.
What makes this move the worst - HE NEVER DRESSED A GAME! Not, he never played. He never even made the active list and was cut the following year. I thought that they were trading up to take Mike Alstot, who would have been a great fit for Norv.

Thats ur opinion on Wilkinson, dude Casserly was just looking for someone to blame, he wouldn't accept responisibility for his picks what a whimp, he's the GM and he has to accept responisibility, not only that I don't believe it for a second, look what Casserly did at Houston there a joke, Casserly is a loser always has been always will be. I don't believe Casserly didn't pick any of those guys for a second.

John Manfreda wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

John Manfreda wrote:

ATV wrote:Yea,....ridiculous arguments - Not worth rebutting, really. I'll simply rely on time to continue revealing what a horrendous choice that was.

I'm more surprised to find there are still Casserly apologists among us. What else does a guy have to do to demonstrate his ineptitude?

I know, Desmond Howard, Micheal Westbroke, Andre Johnson, Heath Shuler, Stubblefield, Wilkinson, Tom Carter, he made mistake after mistake.

Boy, what a group of names. First let me say I am not a Casserly fan, but he let his head coach decide who to take in the first round.
Desmond was a Gibbs' pick, Tom Carter was Pettibone's (and by the way he played way better in his first two years than C Rog), Westbrooke was Norv's (but everyone thought that he was going to be a stud), Heath was Norv's choice too, I wish Wilkerson never left - he played very well - he just didn't play great! Not a draft pick, but a trade of a draft pick for big Daddy.

But the worst move ever made by the Redskins was giving up the 6th pick in the 2nd round and a high 3rd round pick to move up 7 spots to select Andre Johnson and they could have gotten him where they sat in the 2nd round.
What makes this move the worst - HE NEVER DRESSED A GAME! Not, he never played. He never even made the active list and was cut the following year. I thought that they were trading up to take Mike Alstot, who would have been a great fit for Norv.

Thats ur opinion on Wilkinson, dude Casserly was just looking for someone to blame, he wouldn't accept responisibility for his picks what a whimp, he's the GM and he has to accept responisibility, not only that I don't believe it for a second, look what Casserly did at Houston there a joke, Casserly is a loser always has been always will be. I don't believe Casserly didn't pick any of those guys for a second.

You can believe what ever you want. You can believe that the sky is green and the grass is blue, but it still won't change the facts.

I don't think that Casserly is a good GM, but you can't blame most of those guys on him. He is also the guy that pulled off the Jay Scheader for Jim Lachey trade and the Mike Oliphant for Ernest Byner trade. Those are two of the top 3 trades in Skins history. Norm Sneed for Sonny Jurgensen would be the best.

But keep on thinking the sky is green and the grass is blue!

skinsfan#33 wrote:

John Manfreda wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

John Manfreda wrote:

ATV wrote:Yea,....ridiculous arguments - Not worth rebutting, really. I'll simply rely on time to continue revealing what a horrendous choice that was.

I'm more surprised to find there are still Casserly apologists among us. What else does a guy have to do to demonstrate his ineptitude?

I know, Desmond Howard, Micheal Westbroke, Andre Johnson, Heath Shuler, Stubblefield, Wilkinson, Tom Carter, he made mistake after mistake.

Boy, what a group of names. First let me say I am not a Casserly fan, but he let his head coach decide who to take in the first round.
Desmond was a Gibbs' pick, Tom Carter was Pettibone's (and by the way he played way better in his first two years than C Rog), Westbrooke was Norv's (but everyone thought that he was going to be a stud), Heath was Norv's choice too, I wish Wilkerson never left - he played very well - he just didn't play great! Not a draft pick, but a trade of a draft pick for big Daddy.

But the worst move ever made by the Redskins was giving up the 6th pick in the 2nd round and a high 3rd round pick to move up 7 spots to select Andre Johnson and they could have gotten him where they sat in the 2nd round.
What makes this move the worst - HE NEVER DRESSED A GAME! Not, he never played. He never even made the active list and was cut the following year. I thought that they were trading up to take Mike Alstot, who would have been a great fit for Norv.

Thats ur opinion on Wilkinson, dude Casserly was just looking for someone to blame, he wouldn't accept responisibility for his picks what a whimp, he's the GM and he has to accept responisibility, not only that I don't believe it for a second, look what Casserly did at Houston there a joke, Casserly is a loser always has been always will be. I don't believe Casserly didn't pick any of those guys for a second.

You can believe what ever you want. You can believe that the sky is green and the grass is blue, but it still won't change the facts.

I don't think that Casserly is a good GM, but you can't blame most of those guys on him. He is also the guy that pulled off the Jay Scheader for Jim Lachey trade and the Mike Oliphant for Ernest Byner trade. Those are two of the top 3 trades in Skins history. Norm Sneed for Sonny Jurgensen would be the best.

But keep on thinking the sky is green and the grass is blue!

that was Bethard and yes Casserly picked those guys just look at his track record. And yes I am going to believe it because u said believe anything I want and I am.

John Manfreda wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

John Manfreda wrote:

skinsfan#33 wrote:

John Manfreda wrote:

ATV wrote:Yea,....ridiculous arguments - Not worth rebutting, really. I'll simply rely on time to continue revealing what a horrendous choice that was.

I'm more surprised to find there are still Casserly apologists among us. What else does a guy have to do to demonstrate his ineptitude?

I know, Desmond Howard, Micheal Westbroke, Andre Johnson, Heath Shuler, Stubblefield, Wilkinson, Tom Carter, he made mistake after mistake.

Boy, what a group of names. First let me say I am not a Casserly fan, but he let his head coach decide who to take in the first round.
Desmond was a Gibbs' pick, Tom Carter was Pettibone's (and by the way he played way better in his first two years than C Rog), Westbrooke was Norv's (but everyone thought that he was going to be a stud), Heath was Norv's choice too, I wish Wilkerson never left - he played very well - he just didn't play great! Not a draft pick, but a trade of a draft pick for big Daddy.

But the worst move ever made by the Redskins was giving up the 6th pick in the 2nd round and a high 3rd round pick to move up 7 spots to select Andre Johnson and they could have gotten him where they sat in the 2nd round.
What makes this move the worst - HE NEVER DRESSED A GAME! Not, he never played. He never even made the active list and was cut the following year. I thought that they were trading up to take Mike Alstot, who would have been a great fit for Norv.

Thats ur opinion on Wilkinson, dude Casserly was just looking for someone to blame, he wouldn't accept responisibility for his picks what a whimp, he's the GM and he has to accept responisibility, not only that I don't believe it for a second, look what Casserly did at Houston there a joke, Casserly is a loser always has been always will be. I don't believe Casserly didn't pick any of those guys for a second.

You can believe what ever you want. You can believe that the sky is green and the grass is blue, but it still won't change the facts.

I don't think that Casserly is a good GM, but you can't blame most of those guys on him. He is also the guy that pulled off the Jay Scheader for Jim Lachey trade and the Mike Oliphant for Ernest Byner trade. Those are two of the top 3 trades in Skins history. Norm Sneed for Sonny Jurgensen would be the best.

But keep on thinking the sky is green and the grass is blue!

that was Bethard and yes Casserly picked those guys just look at his track record. And yes I am going to believe it because u said believe anything I want and I am.

Do a little research. Casserly is the one creditted with both of those trades. If you don't want to believe the Lachey trade, you have to believe the the Byner trade. Beathard was in San Diego before that trade happened.
Casserly also drafted Mark Schlereth, Brian Mitchell, Andre Collins, Rickey Ervins, Keenan McCardell, Tom Carter, Frank Wycheck, Tre Johnson, Gus Frerotte, Cory Raymer, Stephan Davis, Kenard Lang, Derek Smith, Shawn Barber, Stephen Alexander, Champ Bailey, and Jon Jansen.
Yeah, none of those guy could play. Many of those guys are still playing and atleast B Mitch should be a HOF player and Bailey may make it there as well. Casserley's trade with the Saints in 1999 helped the Skins' ability to draft both Lavar and Samuals in 2000.
I guess his track record does speek for it's self!

The Texans had a choice between the hometown hero national champion QB and the Heisman Tropy winning franchise RB and they chose NEITHER.

This draft will always be remembered for them completely blowing it unless Williams ends up being a Hall of Fame DE.

Drafting Williams over Young was the right move...


Of course...

I Live In Nashville !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! V Y is a beast he has all the intangibles, has every bit of the talent Vick has WITH a better head on his shoulders, oh and he has an entire City in love with him, how's Mario doing in texas? lol after the Skins the Titans are my team and we have a QB who I promise you will win Superbowls (plural)

Titans are going to be some team next year if they can build off this one and not make the mistakes that we have seen this past year.

I think that Jeff Fisher will have his team playing big time football the next few years.

How great would that Auburn - Texas QB match-up be?

- Casserly was the chief talent-evaluator for Bobbie Beathard. SB 17 - 22 were Beathard / Casserly teams. THat counts in Casserly's favor:

- SB 17 Redskins had the most under-rated players ever to win...undrafted free agents, 10-round draft choices, 4th rounders...all people we remeber: Joe Jacoby, Jeff Bostic, Neil Olkeiwicz and the rest of the LB's. Only two Redskin 1st rounders -- Art Monk and Mark May. A few oher team ex-1st rounders that had been junked -- Joey T and Dave Butz -- plus John Riggins, and no one trusted Riggo.

- Casserly and Beathard evaluated the USFL players, and spotted Sanders, Clark, Kelvin Bryant, Doug Williams.

- Beathard left after SB 22, and Casserly built SB 26 with Plan B free agents.

Casserly also bears responsibility for replacing Richie Petibone with Norv Turner; Turner wiped out the Petibone / Gibbs coaching staff. Remember Petibone's comment when told that Turner had replaced Larry Peccatiello as defensive coordinator with Ronn Lynn? "It's like trading a Mercedes for a Ford Escort".

So is Casserly the GM genius who finds the gems that others overlook? Or the GM who backed Norv Turner? I don't know. Maybe all it says is that a GM needs a good coach as much as a coach needs a good GM.

*

On the Texans recent draft pick: he skipped famous college QB and RB. How many college QB's have drowned in the NFL? Ryan Leaf? Gary Beban? Steve Spurrier? Ralph Guglielmi? Instead he drafted a DE.

Think of it another way. Should the Giants have drafted Lawrence Taylor, or a runner? Who counted more to the Giants -- and this is a tough choice -- LT or Phil Simms?

Casserly drafted both Jay Schroeder and Charles Mann in about the same year. Schroeder was a long-shot -- a minor-league catcher who had dropped out of college after one year. Mann was about a 5th round choice.

Over the long haul, who contributed more to the Redskins?

Maybe Casserly has made some bad choices, but he is not necessarily a dope because he passed over Reggie Bush.