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I'm wondering, because I know that his personality tends to grate on his players. In Buffalo, the players ran him out after his third season.

I'm sorry, but I think he treats his players like crap. This is an example from this quite excellent La Canfora blog piece:
:

This Archuleta thing is not going to end pretty, I fear (has there ever been amicable splits since Snyder took over? LaVar, Champ, Pierce, Coles - notice a pattern?).. This one has LaVar written all over it, only this time I don't see the player playing nice and leaving money on the table to get out. Has Adam had a poor season? We all know the answer. Now, who in the secondary has not?

I'm sorry but this smells personal to me, when you give Vernon Fox all the snaps after Troy Vincent goes down. They are making an example out of Archuleta, but Sean Taylor and Carlos Rogers - the recent top 10 picks - never get yanked for even a single play when they get burned repeatedly.

They wanted Arch Deluxe so badly they went crazy with the money. No one made them do that. For Williams to try to tell me he's looking at Vernon Fox for the future on the same day they don't give a snap to Rocky McIntosh - again - doesn't fly. Archuleta is paying for the sins of the entire defense. He's the fall guy. But with all they have invested in him, I would have thought Sunday, with Vincent going down, would have been the perfect chance to try to rebuild his confidence a bit and throw him back in there. Maybe build some good will for the future.

Nah. He rotted on the bench. Archuleta came thisclose to saying how he really feels to me Sunday, then thought better of it. But there are some very real issues between him and the coaching staff - he is not alone - and after three years of the defensive coaching staff jumping on players and being brutally frank in their assessments, you wonder if that starts to get old. Particularly when the coaches, and their schemes, no longer appear infallible.

These are grown men. Why treat them like crap?

It's our third season, and our defense has regressed, dramatically. He's run off players (Pierce and Clark, in particular), thinking he could replace them with backups or free agents. That hasn't worked out tremendously.

And then I come to this:

Which brings me to the lack of intensity. When multiple players of your defense concede after a huge loss that the opposing offense ran them over, played at a high tempo and wanted it more, you've got massive, gaping, crisis-level problems. Your D sets the tone, establishes your identity, and must bring a punishing attitude to work. This defense has nothing close to a swagger. I asked Williams about what I saw as a flat performance after the game, particularly the ridiculous 14, play 85 yard, 9 minute drive they gave up right after JC gave the Skins a 10-3 lead, and he said the team was fired up on the sidelines and was playing with emotion.

Sorry, that doesn't pass my eye test. And when guys like Griffin throw around phrases like "We laid down," you just might be cooked.

In 2004 I saw a defense that would run through walls for this coaching staff. They certainly have not played that way in a long, long time.

Have the players quit on Williams?

Have the players quit on Williams?

I think so. Offensively, while we have struggled, the players seem to be playing harder. Not necessarily better, but harder and with more intensity. Griffin's postgame comments seemed to indicate that he thinks that some players have quit or aren't playing their hardest.

PulpExposure wrote: Have the players quit on Williams?

I don't know, but the possibility is there. How'd they fall so far from last year (9th) to now (close to 30th)? Seems like everyone on the D regressed, and no one can tackle worth a darn.

I think so also, Im losing faith in Williams, I dont know whats wrong with this defense but with all the talent we have there its unreal to me how bad they are playing

Gregg Williams' defense in Buffalo only got better the longer that he was there, so I don't know how well history corroborates with how the Skins' players are feeling right now.

I think we'll have a much better idea next year--one year's collapse isn't a lot to go on.

Williams is a overhyped knitwit. He screwed this defense up with his self absorbed attitude and both he and Dale Lindsey need to be shown the door! Where is Ritchie Pettibone when you need him. This defense is just as sorry as the Mike Nolan defense from years ago. Oh well atleast JC looked sharp and sorry if anyone is a bust, it's Brandon Lloyd, he couldn't catch a damn cold yesterday! PLEASE MOSS HURRY BACK!

I remember the good wrote:Williams is a overhyped knitwit. He screwed this defense up with his self absorbed attitude and both he and Dale Lindsey need to be shown the door! Where is Ritchie Pettibone when you need him. This defense is just as sorry as the Mike Nolan defense from years ago. Oh well atleast JC looked sharp and sorry if anyone is a bust, it's Brandon Lloyd, he couldn't catch a damn cold yesterday! PLEASE MOSS HURRY BACK!

Yeah! What nerve Williams has for inheriting a 24th ranked defense and screwing it up that last three years! I mean, having a top ranked defense only two out of three years?!? C'mon! The guy should be flipping burgers!

What you have to like about that post is that it's based on cold, hard, factual analysis


P.S. JBD, don't think I didn't notice your new location ... this means war

Fios wrote:What you have to like about that post is that it's based on cold, hard, factual analysis


P.S. JBD, don't think I didn't notice your new location ... this means war

Excellent. This board has been waiting for years for the inevitable Straw-Donut crisis to heat to a boil.

This year's defence is just about as sickening a unit as I can remember the Redskins having. We've become accustomed to limp wristed offences, but this defence is a total waste of locker space.

To call Williams an overhyped knitwit is of course utter drivel. But the question does have to be asked - has he lost the players? In previous years, he had a number of players that owed him their shot in the last chance saloon. They played tough and well above their apparent abilities.

This year, we have a cast of millionaires, a number of which don't seem to owe anybody anything. The most disconcerting thing is that the defence isn't any good at anything. You can gameplan for a team that struggles to stop either run or pass, or doesn't get pressure from the d-line, or doesn't create turnovers. But a team that can't do anything except stink is just impossible.

Answers need to be found in the offseason (again), and those answers should not include another set of flashy free agents. This defence needs an injection of heart, not some more bling. It can be turned around as quickly as it's fallen apart, but I have no idea how right now.

Irn-Bru wrote:Gregg Williams' defense in Buffalo only got better the longer that he was there, so I don't know how well history corroborates with how the Skins' players are feeling right now.

I think we'll have a much better idea next year--one year's collapse isn't a lot to go on.

His defense did get better statistically (21-15-2), but from a friend of mine who is a Bills fan (who is as fanatic a Bills fan as I am a Skins fan), his team stopped listening to him. He was basically forced out in a player revolt.

One thing I really appreciated in Williams (the past two years) is that our players didn't miss tackles. It's something that I had been used to over the years before....Redskins players missing tackles. But it suddenly came to a stop when Williams got to town.

But now, all of a sudden, we're missing tackles. A lot of them. It's hurting us. And it really makes me wonder if they're just not playing hard for Williams anymore.

Irn-Bru wrote:

Fios wrote:What you have to like about that post is that it's based on cold, hard, factual analysis


P.S. JBD, don't think I didn't notice your new location ... this means war

Excellent. This board has been waiting for years for the inevitable Straw-Donut crisis to heat to a boil.

Oh, the humanity! There's going to be tasty cream filling everywhere!

UK Skins Fan wrote: This defence needs an injection of heart, not some more bling. It can be turned around as quickly as it's fallen apart, but I have no idea how right now.

The defense needs an injection of youth, too. Most of our defensive starters are getting old.

If Williams continues to be petty then yes, the team will lose interest in him. Man up. Get in their faces, but let them redeem themselves for crying out loud.

Fios wrote:P.S. JBD, don't think I didn't notice your new location ... this means war

Like Kirsten Dunst says - 'I'm an idiot'. No, wait, wrong quote. 'Bring it on'.

Lets hope Williams is no longer the hand picked successor to be head coach after Gibbs retires.

I hope the danny runs him outta here, 9th -30th, pythetic

I think that there are two things going on here:

1. This defense has lost it's edge because of the lack of help from the offense over time. This defense is not this year's Bears defense or the 2000 Ravens defense that can generate their own points. And because of that, the offense has/had to do something to help them out and they didn't and those guys got tired and uninspired..

2. GW's style of coaching and his arrogance has added fuel to the fire of the first point. By handling those guys the way he and Dale Lindsay does compounding that with no help from the offense.

What's happening now is all about arrogance and stupidity. Arrogance in thinking that his defense is a "plug-n-play" type of defense that anybody can play in. Stupidity because he was stupid for letting "core guys" go who wanted to be here and didn't want to break the bank and not coming up with something on defense to make up for the deficiences and injuries.

What is Defensive Coordination???? Is it just drawing up defensive plays or is it coaching the players or is it both??? The reason I ask is because it looks to me like GW and his crew have spent more time on their scheme then on coaching. Then they have the nerve to have treated Lavar like they did last year. Questioning his intelligence and all. GW looks like a complete buffoon, oaf, dummy, idiot, etc. for handpicking a one-diminensional safety.

UK Skins Fan wrote:To call Williams an overhyped knitwit is of course utter drivel. But the question does have to be asked - has he lost the players? In previous years, he had a number of players that owed him their shot in the last chance saloon. They played tough and well above their apparent abilities.

I think you are onto something. I think we need to bring in inexpensive underappreciated talent and see who steps up. We have spent so much money on a few guys that our depth is too thin and our underperforming defensive starters are playing as if they are irreplaceable.

We have traded away too many draft picks so we will need to find help through free agency. But hopefully it will not be a free agency spending spree. Instead of signing 3 or 4 new stars to insane contracts I would like to sign 6 or 7 solid guys who nobody has heard of but who all have the potential to become starters.

Remember how we could not afford to keep Walt Harris, the overpaid nickel back? Harris has 6 INTs for the 49ers so far this year -- twice as many as our entire team.

We really need a GM.

Wow, I remember several threads where everyone was saying that he was great and needed to be the next head coach. Now this?

Its like they say, football is a business and right now business is bad.

There are 6 weeks to go and I am sure that Williams is very keen to both finish strong and have a really good idea of who is going to be "playing" for him next year. This guy is too good for this rubbish that we have been looking at and people who do not put a great deal more effort into the games will not be here next year.

The lack of tackling is the most noticeable feature of this defense. It used to be terrible before Williams; it was a lot better, but it is terrible again this year. The number of times we miss a tackle is atrocious.

If there is a good thing about our situation it is that we have some very good games to use for evaluating. I am looking forward to some better quality football because we can go nowhere but up from what we have seen. Plus we will not be worried about anyone coming in and taking our co-ordinators this year. I think they are very good but both have not had good years that's for sure.

I also hope we do not go crazy with the expensive players this year. We know that Joe will use the free agent market because he does not like the draft but the talent scouts have to find players who suit the systems better than they have done.






It is a lot easier when you are a homer and are blind to what is happening in front of you.

roybus14 wrote:I think that there are two things going on here:

2. GW's style of coaching and his arrogance has added fuel to the fire of the first point. By handling those guys the way he and Dale Lindsay does compounding that with no help from the offense.

What's happening now is all about arrogance and stupidity. Arrogance in thinking that his defense is a "plug-n-play" type of defense that anybody can play in. Stupidity because he was stupid for letting "core guys" go who wanted to be here and didn't want to break the bank and not coming up with something on defense to make up for the deficiences and injuries.

What is Defensive Coordination???? Is it just drawing up defensive plays or is it coaching the players or is it both??? The reason I ask is because it looks to me like GW and his crew have spent more time on their scheme then on coaching. Then they have the nerve to have treated Lavar like they did last year. Questioning his intelligence and all. GW looks like a complete buffoon, oaf, dummy, idiot, etc. for handpicking a one-diminensional safety.

When they are winning, I really don't think that players care what type of coach they have. I'm all in favour of the tough love approach with the modern player, because there are plenty of them out there that just don't seem to have the fire in their belly. If Williams, Lindsay, Blache et al can instill some fire by their methods, then I have no problem with that.

If the players are losing faith in Williams, then it's because they're not winning. I'm worried by some of the things said in this story today:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/20/AR2006112001073.html
But the fact is that players would be unhappy now whether they have Williams as a coach, or my Aunt Doreen - losing breeds unhappiness, and I'm not sure the style of coaching is the issue here.

As for accusing Williams of arrogance for thinking that he could plug just anybody into his scheme and watch it fly, I see two problems with that:
1) His previous success in Washington could be seen as compelling evidence that his defence can work with just anybody plugged into it. Look at the list of undervalued players that succeeded in his scheme before this year. The success he's had up to now suggests that his scheme and his methods are more important than the personnel.
2) I can't see that picking up Carter and Archuletta in the offseason can be considered as picking up just anybody. You can argue that they have both been failures, but they were handpicked for this defence, not simply plucked out of thin air to prove a point.

Williams certainly looks pretty dumb now for choosing Archuletta, but we won't know until next year (or maybe never) just how important the loss of Prioleau was in the overall scheme of things. But not many people would argue against the idea of having Ryan Clark and Pierson Prioleau back in the secondary instead of AA and Vernon Fox.

UK Skins Fan wrote:

roybus14 wrote:I think that there are two things going on here:

2. GW's style of coaching and his arrogance has added fuel to the fire of the first point. By handling those guys the way he and Dale Lindsay does compounding that with no help from the offense.

What's happening now is all about arrogance and stupidity. Arrogance in thinking that his defense is a "plug-n-play" type of defense that anybody can play in. Stupidity because he was stupid for letting "core guys" go who wanted to be here and didn't want to break the bank and not coming up with something on defense to make up for the deficiences and injuries.

What is Defensive Coordination???? Is it just drawing up defensive plays or is it coaching the players or is it both??? The reason I ask is because it looks to me like GW and his crew have spent more time on their scheme then on coaching. Then they have the nerve to have treated Lavar like they did last year. Questioning his intelligence and all. GW looks like a complete buffoon, oaf, dummy, idiot, etc. for handpicking a one-diminensional safety.

When they are winning, I really don't think that players care what type of coach they have. I'm all in favour of the tough love approach with the modern player, because there are plenty of them out there that just don't seem to have the fire in their belly. If Williams, Lindsay, Blache et al can instill some fire by their methods, then I have no problem with that.

If the players are losing faith in Williams, then it's because they're not winning. I'm worried by some of the things said in this story today:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/20/AR2006112001073.html
But the fact is that players would be unhappy now whether they have Williams as a coach, or my Aunt Doreen - losing breeds unhappiness, and I'm not sure the style of coaching is the issue here.

As for accusing Williams of arrogance for thinking that he could plug just anybody into his scheme and watch it fly, I see two problems with that:
1) His previous success in Washington could be seen as compelling evidence that his defence can work with just anybody plugged into it. Look at the list of undervalued players that succeeded in his scheme before this year. The success he's had up to now suggests that his scheme and his methods are more important than the personnel.
2) I can't see that picking up Carter and Archuletta in the offseason can be considered as picking up just anybody. You can argue that they have both been failures, but they were handpicked for this defence, not simply plucked out of thin air to prove a point.

Williams certainly looks pretty dumb now for choosing Archuletta, but we won't know until next year (or maybe never) just how important the loss of Prioleau was in the overall scheme of things. But not many people would argue against the idea of having Ryan Clark and Pierson Prioleau back in the secondary instead of AA and Vernon Fox.

Cheers, ol' Chap....

I will say up front that we should agree to disagree, upfront to get it out of the way. Now, here's why:

You made a good point about the guys that developed into good players in his scheme but herein lies the problem. These guys were younger and just coming into the league and open for anything. But he let's them go and goes after older guys that have been in this league for some time under another system/scheme and are set in their ways so to speak.

Yes, picking up AA and Carter is exactly the same as picking up anybody. Look at the results.

Plus, the true tale of his arrogance is how much he been humbled this year in his post-game interviews. A far cry from the confident and arrogant guy we said last year with that look in his eye.

It aint over till the fat lady sings - Gibbs will coach for 2 more years and Williams succeeds him. At which time Williams defense will be established as top 5 in the NFL. HAIL