The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I have read many posts over the past few days, since the Redskins loss to the Seahawks. Aside from the hiring of Saunders most have been centered on our QB situation. I for one am not as concerned about our QB situation for a few reasons.

First and foremost are we forgetting that Gibbs won three SB with three different QB’s…Think about that for a second…let it sink in. Try putting it in to some perspective. Lombardi had Starr, Landry had Stabach, Knoll had Bradshaw, Walsh had Montana, Johnson had Aikman and Belichilk has Brady. None of those coaches, great as they are, ever won a SB with another QB.

Second…As someone who saw 14 of the Redskins 21 games in person, I have to ask… was Brunell that bad? Gibbs doesn’t ask his QB’s to “do it all” His QB’s have succeeded because of the system they play in. I can only believe that Brunell will be even better next year.

Lastly it has always been about “team” with Gibbs, that’s why you don’t see a lot of his players in the HOF or a big coaching tree like Walsh, Parcells and now Belichik. Gibbs has the uncanny ability to take 53 players along with the coaching staff and get them all on the same page and keep them there. With 10 coaching vacancies in the NFL this year you can’t tell me Saunders and Williams wouldn’t have gotten a job.

I guess I’m just not as concerned about who takes the football from Rabach as I am about what he does with it from there.

Hallelujah!

As I said a few days ago, it'll be exciting to head to camp and see who looks best.

I agree with you guys somewhat because I do like Brunell. In another post someone pointed out Brunell's numbers in the beginning of the season, middle and end. His performance in all categories was steadily going down, down, down. It's sign of an old man ageing and getting tired as the season went on. Postis's numbers kept going up, up and up as the season went on, cuz he's a younger cat. I understand we could of still won with Brunell at QB but he doesn't help our chance. Next year will be the same thing or worse. It is 100% fact players that are mid 30's and up will lose a step and it is harder to keep up with the speed of the NFL. Brunell if he starts next year will still be an okay QB, he'll be smart enough to beat week teams and week defensive teams, but to go deep in the playoffs against the best teams will not happen anymore with Brunell.

Brunell is getting old, that is why everyone is getting concerned. He is also getting hurt a lot.

Yeah, Mark B seemed to taper off last season...

I think he is still a spectacular backup, but I don't know if he can handle a full NFL season again.

I am ready for the Jason Campbell era to begin.

DEHog wrote:I have read many posts over the past few days, since the Redskins loss to the Seahawks. Aside from the hiring of Saunders most have been centered on our QB situation. I for one am not as concerned about our QB situation for a few reasons.

First and foremost are we forgetting that Gibbs won three SB with three different QB’s…Think about that for a second…let it sink in. Try putting it in to some perspective. Lombardi had Starr, Landry had Stabach, Knoll had Bradshaw, Walsh had Montana, Johnson had Aikman and Belichilk has Brady. None of those coaches, great as they are, ever won a SB with another QB.

Second…As someone who saw 14 of the Redskins 21 games in person, I have to ask… was Brunell that bad? Gibbs doesn’t ask his QB’s to “do it all” His QB’s have succeeded because of the system they play in. I can only believe that Brunell will be even better next year.

Lastly it has always been about “team” with Gibbs, that’s why you don’t see a lot of his players in the HOF or a big coaching tree like Walsh, Parcells and now Belichik. Gibbs has the uncanny ability to take 53 players along with the coaching staff and get them all on the same page and keep them there. With 10 coaching vacancies in the NFL this year you can’t tell me Saunders and Williams wouldn’t have gotten a job.

I guess I’m just not as concerned about who takes the football from Rabach as I am about what he does with it from there.

I've always been amazed by Gibbs ability to win with what he's got. The only thing I'll say about it, though, is that all of his different QBs were healthy. Brunell is fantastic when 90%+, lower than that and he's, well I hate to say, horrible. I really like Brunell as a player and competitor, but you can't fool mother nature, his age is showing.

This isn’t a thread about how good or bad Brunell is??? It’s about the fact that Gibbs can win with whoever lines up behind center. Case and point….look at all the Brunell bashing that’s going on, all over the boards. Gibbs took this team (with him at QB) to and won a playoff game. We didn’t lose to the Seahawks because of our play at QB we lost because of the play around our QB IMO!!

I know what the thread is about DEHog...

The point is, Gibbs can't win with a QB who can't stay healthy, that is a pretty important component to a QB in Gibbs' system...

Actually, the problem is that most of you over-simplify things and try to pin our 'downfalls' on one particular thing.

In reality, there were several things that led to our offense sputtering, losing Randy Thomas, losing David Patten, then James Thrash for a while too. And because we didn't have some of those things, some of our best weapons weren't firing as well either. Santana Moss saw double coverage on nearly every play because of a lack of other options for the Skins passing game.

But let's not over-exaggerate here either... I struggle to see how the offense was sputtering so badly to close out the season when we put up over 100 points in our last 3 games aginst divisional opponents... to sweep the season series in all 3 cases I might add.

Our offense sputtered in the playoffs and if you think that it didn't have a huge amount to do with how banged up Clinton was as much as anything else, then you're watching different football than I am. This team's strength and focus is the running game, not Brunell and the passing game, and we just could not run the ball in the playoffs. Losing one of the best pulling guards in football obviously impacts that greatly as well... especially when he's been pulling SO WELL that it had become our bread and butter.

But it's not any one single thing regardless IMO. We lacked a little depth, we had bad key injuries at the wrong time, and we still need a few weapons, but to pin everything squarely on Bunell is silly in my opinion. CP was an absolute warrior all season... but he just got knicked at a bad time.

Mark Brunell was a tough, solid leader this year. I think he did enough to earn 1/3 of a shot at the starting job at training camp next year and that's the extent of it for me.

I honestly don't care which of the three it is... If Campbell comes to camp and wins the job then I'm all for it... because I think Al Saunders and Joe Gibbs know better than I do.

And I think that was DE's point wasn't it?

Skinsfan55 wrote:I know what the thread is about DEHog...

The point is, Gibbs can't win with a QB who can't stay healthy, that is a pretty important component to a QB in Gibbs' system...

Really? then I guesss you don't remember Jay schroeder giving way to Doug Williams and him stepping in to win a Super Bowl huh?

I don't know how many times I have heard Joe Gibbs say that the back-up QB is one of the most important roster spots period for Joe.

It would appear that Gibbs not only accepts that a QB may get hurt, but is able to account for it when it happens. So one might actually say that a QB getting hurt is so possible that he's worked it into his 'system'.

Skinsfan55 wrote:I know what the thread is about DEHog...

The point is, Gibbs can't win with a QB who can't stay healthy, that is a pretty important component to a QB in Gibbs' system...

Thats right, the last 2 SB gibbs won with Williams and Ryp They had career years. They were having great years esp; Ryp. Brunell is not going to have anymore career years his best has come and gone. If he starts this year, I'd almost be will to bet he'll get the job done early and his production will really start droping as the season goes on. To go deep into the playoffs and to the big show, we will need a productive QB, more then Brunell can give.

BossHog wrote:Actually, the problem is that most of you over-simplify things and try to pin our 'downfalls' on one particular thing.

In reality, there were several things that led to our offense sputtering, losing Randy Thomas, losing David Patten, then James Thrash for a while too. And because we didn't have some of those things, some of our best weapons weren't firing as well either. Santana Moss saw double coverage on nearly every play because of a lack of other options for the Skins passing game.

But let's not over-exaggerate here either... I struggle to see how the offense was sputtering so badly to close out the season when we put up over 100 points in our last 3 games aginst divisional opponents... to sweep the season series in all 3 cases I might add.

Our offense sputtered in the playoffs and if you think that it didn't have a huge amount to do with how banged up Clinton was as much as anything else, then you're watching different football than I am. This team's strength and focus is the running game, not Brunell and the passing game, and we just could not run the ball in the playoffs. Losing one of the best pulling guards in football obviously impacts that greatly as well... especially when he's been pulling SO WELL that it had become our bread and butter.

But it's not any one single thing regardless IMO. We lacked a little depth, we had bad key injuries at the wrong time, and we still need a few weapons, but to pin everything squarely on Bunell is silly in my opinion. CP was an absolute warrior all season... but he just got knicked at a bad time.

Mark Brunell was a tough, solid leader this year. I think he did enough to earn 1/3 of a shot at the starting job at training camp next year and that's the extent of it for me.

I honestly don't care which of the three it is... If Campbell comes to camp and wins the job then I'm all for it... because I think Al Saunders and Joe Gibbs know better than I do.

And I think that was DE's point wasn't it?

That was one of his points, the other being that I am godlike and should be worshiped accordingly.

skinsRin wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:I know what the thread is about DEHog...

The point is, Gibbs can't win with a QB who can't stay healthy, that is a pretty important component to a QB in Gibbs' system...

Thats right, the last 2 SB gibbs won with Williams and Ryp They had career years. They were having great years esp; Ryp. Brunell is not going to have anymore career years his best has come and gone. If he starts this year, I'd almost be will to bet he'll get the job done early and his production will really start droping as the season goes on. To go deep into the playoffs and to the big show, we will need a productive QB, more then Brunell can give.

I'll make sure to reserve a spot for you at the 2nd Annual 2006 THN Crow-Eating Gala after that beautiful comment. I hope you're around then, as well, look for an invitation around week 15 next year.

BTW - Great points, DEHog and BH. The issues on offense go further than the man who was under center during the playoffs.

I, too, am excited to see Mark compete next year for the starting job. As we witnessed this year, #8 is a competitor, and to have a young buck progressing the way Campbell is reportedly doing, will make tthe training camp competition quite fun to watch.

skinsRin wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:I know what the thread is about DEHog...

The point is, Gibbs can't win with a QB who can't stay healthy, that is a pretty important component to a QB in Gibbs' system...

Thats right, the last 2 SB gibbs won with Williams and Ryp They had career years. They were having great years esp; Ryp. Brunell is not going to have anymore career years his best has come and gone. If he starts this year, I'd almost be will to bet he'll get the job done early and his production will really start droping as the season goes on. To go deep into the playoffs and to the big show, we will need a productive QB, more then Brunell can give.

This is the exact point I'm trying to agrue...Of course we need a productie QB just like (as BH said) We need a productive pulling gaurd, a productive running back, WR, LB the list goes on.Look at the QB's left in the Playoffs. If you look at the common denominator is they have great Olines and play solid D. Look at who's home watching...Both Mannings,Brady,Brees,Green,Bulger!

If I didn't say it, BH did it's about TEAM and whoever lines up...Think Gibbs will come out and name a starter for next year like he did last year??

skinsRin wrote: Thats right, the last 2 SB gibbs won with Williams and Ryp They had career years. They were having great years esp; Ryp. Brunell is not going to have anymore career years his best has come and gone. If he starts this year, I'd almost be will to bet he'll get the job done early and his production will really start droping as the season goes on. To go deep into the playoffs and to the big show, we will need a productive QB, more then Brunell can give.

Wiliams had a career year in a strike-shortened season where jay Scroeder was actually the chosen starting QB?

I know it's quite a long time ago but that doesn't mean we have to make stuff up.

Capping it with a SB made it a career highlight I'm sure, but Williams put up over 3500 yards in tampa Bay. He probably only played 4 or 5 games in '87.

BossHog wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:I know what the thread is about DEHog...

The point is, Gibbs can't win with a QB who can't stay healthy, that is a pretty important component to a QB in Gibbs' system...

Really? then I guesss you don't remember Jay schroeder giving way to Doug Williams and him stepping in to win a Super Bowl huh?

I don't know how many times I have heard Joe Gibbs say that the back-up QB is one of the most important roster spots period for Joe.

It would appear that Gibbs not only accepts that a QB may get hurt, but is able to account for it when it happens. So one might actually say that a QB getting hurt is so possible that he's worked it into his 'system'.

Also don't forget how Schroeder got his start??

DEHog wrote:This isn’t a thread about how good or bad Brunell is??? It’s about the fact that Gibbs can win with whoever lines up behind center. Case and point….look at all the Brunell bashing that’s going on, all over the boards. Gibbs took this team (with him at QB) to and won a playoff game. We didn’t lose to the Seahawks because of our play at QB we lost because of the play around our QB IMO!!

Actually, what I was hearing from your post was
1. Gibbs can win with any QB (which I agree with) and
2. There isn't a QB situation which I disagree with because I believe that despite Brunell's fantastic job this year I have doubts he can stay healthy enough to get us to the SB. So I think the Redskins will probably need to address that (IMveryHO).

Again, I don't doubt Gibbs in the leat bit. I just think there's gonna be a QB situation to address (and provide us with hours of frantically typing our opinions about) and that's mainly due to Brunell's health question.

And yes, its OBVIOUS, to anyone that knows anything about football, that it doesn't fall squarely on any individual player's shoulders. But you could say the QB is a position that needs some pretty damn big shoulders for a team to be successful.

Coach Gibbs also didn't use a shotgun formation before. Times change. Coach Gibbs is doing what he has to make the team competitive, and part of that is the quarterback position. Oh, and by the way, we didn't sweep the Giants, only the Cowboys and Eagles.

There should be a competition in camp, because handing the job over to anyone this early makes little sense. However, I will say that I am pulling for Campbell to take over. The blame doesn't completely fall on Brunell, but he does share in some of it. And when our offense was abysmal when it counted (i.e. two playoff games), any possible upgrade is a good thing, whether it comes at qb, or the second receiver, or T-end.

Many of us were wrong about brunell this year. He outperformed the expectations set by his performance last year. But I don't think that it makes sense to say physically, he's going to be even better at 36 than at 35. It seems pretty clear he wore down towards the end of the year. He also suffered a knee injury that hampered his mobility and throwing motion. We're going to need more than that.

Addressing this point generally though---the coaching staff has done a very impressive job in bringing hope and level of respect back to the skins. They've done a lot of that by recasting the team in the mold of past teams. Those values are making us a better team. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that everything we do has to be carbon copy of the old teams. Salary cap issues, new schemes, more popular players, all of these make innovation necessary. I used to think that Coach Gibbs didn't have that in him anymore. But I was wrong. He is tweaking the things that made him great before, and now, this is just one more tweak---instead of winning with a myriad of qbs, we're going to have a franchise qb...and that's a good thing...

Can't we just lay off guys? Jeez, this team could win a Superbowl, and we'd still be looking for a QB controversy.

There are only two things I need to know:
1) I know diddly squat
2) There's diddly squat that Joe Gibbs doesn't know about football.

Hence, the quarterback that takes the field for the Redskins next year will be the best man for the job, subject to injury.

Isn't it time for another thread about Lavar?

weneedcharlesmann wrote:Many of us were wrong about brunell this year. He outperformed the expectations set by his performance last year. But I don't think that it makes sense to say physically, he's going to be even better at 36 than at 35. It seems pretty clear he wore down towards the end of the year. He also suffered a knee injury that hampered his mobility and throwing motion. We're going to need more than that.

(Tryin' to do my best Peyton impression)

I'm all about the team, and I it's best to try to be a good teamate, but there were some protection issues that shortened Brunell's season by at least 3 games. So, being a good teammate and all, it wasn't all his fault. There were some protection and receiving issues. It's not his AGE!!!

BossHog wrote:In reality, there were several things that led to our offense sputtering, losing Randy Thomas, losing David Patten, then James Thrash for a while too. And because we didn't have some of those things, some of our best weapons weren't firing as well either. Santana Moss saw double coverage on nearly every play because of a lack of other options for the Skins passing game.

This has a lot to do with it. Think Peyton Manning & the Colts would be as effective with a 50% Edgerrin James, no Tarik Glenn, and starting Troy Walters (their #4 WR) for Reggie Wayne? I don't.

in our last 3 games aginst divisional opponents... to sweep the season series in all 3 cases I might add.

Swept the Eagles & Cowboys. Split the series with the Giants.

Mark Brunell was a tough, solid leader this year. I think he did enough to earn 1/3 of a shot at the starting job at training camp next year and that's the extent of it for me.

I honestly don't care which of the three it is... If Campbell comes to camp and wins the job then I'm all for it... because I think Al Saunders and Joe Gibbs know better than I do.

Yep. Agree with you here. Brunell certainly more than earned his shot in training camp.

So let me get this right we're "blaming" Mark Brunell for taking us to and winning a playoff game right?

DEHog wrote:So let me get this right we're "blaming" Mark Brunell for taking us to and winning a playoff game right?

Absolutely.

I just really wouldn't be supprised to see Patrick our starter next year. I think that with this new O-Cord. He may talk with Pat and coach him for this team. I just see some really good things coming. I just know that Pat is such a good team player and would hate to see him leave. Even if we could get something out of him, he is vital to our team. I just hope he stays. With the right coaching, i really think he could be the QB to lead us to the big game in 2007. Do you all see his value more on our team next year or do you see what we could get out of a 3rd or 4th rounder more valuable.


Any Thoughts?

frankcal20 wrote:I just really wouldn't be supprised to see Patrick our starter next year. I think that with this new O-Cord. He may talk with Pat and coach him for this team. I just see some really good things coming. I just know that Pat is such a good team player and would hate to see him leave. Even if we could get something out of him, he is vital to our team. I just hope he stays. With the right coaching, i really think he could be the QB to lead us to the big game in 2007. Do you all see his value more on our team next year or do you see what we could get out of a 3rd or 4th rounder more valuable.


Any Thoughts?

Your one of the few that see it that way...I think the drafting of Jason says it all...Even if PR were to stay here how long before you bring Jason along?? I think PR wants and derserves a chance to be a starter for someone.