The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I was doing just a little reminiscing.

There were a few great moves that the Redskins have made over the years. The easy ones are the Moss for Coles trade and the decisions to not re-sign Pierce and Smoot. However, there are many other moves that the Skins have made that aren’t as obvious. I am going to list a few. I hope you guys can list some more that I don’t know about, or that I forgot.

1. Taking Sean Taylor over Kellen Winslow Jr. Remember the huge debate about the 5th pick two years ago? Taylor vs. Winslow. Well, it looks as if the Redskins could not have been more right. Taylor has had his disciplinary problems, mind you. However, Winslow has barely seen the field. He had a broken leg his first season and he was put on IR. He didn’t even hit training camp the next season. He tore his ACL riding his motorcycle. The Redskins traded up to the third round to select a fellow named Cris ey. The Redskins made the right personnel call again.

2. Taking Carlos Rogers over Mike Williams. I am ashamed to say that I bought into the Mike Williams hype. He was claimed to be a fast, huge receiver. When he fell to number 9, I really wanted the Redskins to take him. I was slightly bemused when we took Rogers. We did need Rogers, but I thought Williams was exactly what we needed. He had 29 catches for 350 yards and 1 touchdown. Jimmy Johnson described him as a slow tight end. In fact, the Redskins still need a big possession receiver. Mike Williams is not the guy. However, in Rogers, the Redskins have found someone to replace Smoot.

3. Trading Bailey and a 2nd rounder for Portis. Like everyone else I wish that it was a straight up trade: Bailey for Portis. Denver selected Tatum Bell with the 2nd round pick that the Redskins gave them. Portis has been much more effective than Bell. Also, the Redskins signed Shaun Springs to replace Bailey. Wilbon pointed out that Denver is paying Bailey the equivalent of what Washington is paying Portis AND Springs. Both teams got what they needed and the Redskins made the right personnel moves.

4. Many people might disagree with his, but I think trading this year’s 1st rounder and a few other picks for Jason Campbell was really smart. I know we haven’t seen him play yet, but if Gibbs trusts him, we should. Also, there was a possibility that the pick could have been quite high. Since the Redskins did so well this year, it will be a pretty low first rounder. I think it might be the 26th pick in fact (Campbell was taken with the 25th pick last year).

Anyway, that’s just a few musings I have had. I apologize if this should be in another thread. I haven’t been on the website for a little while (so long my account was inactivated) so I haven’t been keeping up to speed with the threads.

28green28 wrote:2. Taking Carlos Rogers over Mike Williams. I am ashamed to say that I bought into the Mike Williams hype. He was claimed to be a fast, huge receiver. When he fell to number 9, I really wanted the Redskins to take him. I was slightly bemused when we took Rogers. We did need Rogers, but I thought Williams was exactly what we needed. He had 29 catches for 350 yards and 1 touchdown. Jimmy Johnson described him as a slow tight end. In fact, the Redskins still need a big possession receiver. Mike Williams is not the guy. However, in Rogers, the Redskins have found someone to replace Smoot.

I guess I can say I was wrong too. The depth at DB came in a lot more handy than our shortage of WR's this season. Dont care MW out though, he had nobody worth a darn tossing him the ball this season.

Mike Williams has been out of the game for a while, and he didn't start and had no one to throw him the ball. I wouldn't say anything yet. Carlos Roigers has been hurt a lot, he could be injury prone. You forgot about ey. Signing Griffin when everyone said he was overpaid.

Would Kellen Winslow have ever been injured if he played with the Skins?

Maybe, maybe not.

You can't say for sure who would have been the better player to have.

Chris ey is good, but he is probably the worst TE/H-B in the NFC East... Winslow would have fit into our offense just as nicely, probably more so.

Skinsfan55 wrote:Chris ey is good, but he is probably the worst TE/H-B in the NFC East... Winslow would have fit into our offense just as nicely, probably more so.

Shockey: 65 catches, 891 yards, 7 TDs
Witten: 66 catches, 767, 6 TDs
Smith: 61 catches, 682 yards, 3 TDs
ey: 71 catches, 774 yards, 7 TDs

1) Isn't he in your avatar?
2) Looking at the above stats and allowing for the fact that McNabb was hurt, how does ey become the worst? What has any of those players done to separate themselves from the pack?



Edited twice for spelling

I've just heard that from the scouting reports...

Yeah, I love ey, but who's to say K2 wouldn't have been an awesome fit for this team?

Winslow could stretch defenses, ey finds small holes to make short catches.

I am a big fan of ey's but Winslow > Taylor might have been a better move, we'll just never know if he would have stayed healthy.

The choice wasn't between ey and Winslow, it was between Winslow and Taylor. Two years later, Winslow is still an unknown, unproven entity, and Taylor is "the best player [Gregg Williams] has ever coached."

That's a pretty poor thing to say SkinsFan55. ey has been amazing for us and I can't believe that you think a guy who has been injured two years in a row would be a better fit. Potential does not replace production. Also I would also like to point out that ey's numbers this year are right up there with Shockey and Witten. We got him in the 3rd round and he was picked lower than any other of the "top" TEs in the East but is playing better than or just as well as the other guys. I'll take the Cowboy Killer over any of those chumps.

And your point is??

The fact is that the information simply isn't available to make the call.

I'm still waiting for your argument demonstrating that ey is the worst TE/H-back in the NFC East

My point is that personnel people in the NFL have their jobs on the line for that type of stuff. Would you rather be the guy who drafted ey and his numbers or the guy that drafted the idiot who decided that it would be fun to pop wheelies on a motorcycle without a licsense and injure himself for the season AGAIN? Production...not potential. If potential won games the Skins would have won the Superbowl each year for the past decade. ey is a Skin, Winslow ain't. Show some love man!

Fios, you'll hear no such argument, because I made no such assertion.

I said he was probably the worst.

He's getting better and might someday soon be a pro bowler, but for now he's not the kind of player you'd say is on another level.

A guy LIKE K2 or Tony Gonzalez, or Jeremy Shockey etc. can find seams like ey where they can snatch short catches but they also run good routes and can stretch the defense upfield... ey cannot do that IMO.

Granted, he's on my avatar, one of my favorite players (though my overall favorite might be Marcus Washington) but I like him because he's a grinder, and makes the most out of the talent he has, not because he is a megastar.

Skinsfan55 wrote:Fios, you'll hear no such argument, because I made no such assertion.

I said he was probably the worst.

He's getting better and might someday soon be a pro bowler, but for now he's not the kind of player you'd say is on another level.

A guy LIKE K2 or Tony Gonzalez, or Jeremy Shockey etc. can find seams like ey where they can snatch short catches but they also run good routes and can stretch the defense upfield... ey cannot do that IMO.

Granted, he's on my avatar, one of my favorite players (though my overall favorite might be Marcus Washington) but I like him because he's a grinder, and makes the most out of the talent he has, not because he is a megastar.

That's probably the weakest thing I've ever read, come on, you're equivocating. If I said "Petyon Manning is probably the biggest choke artist in the game" I couldn't get away with that simply because I qualified it. You put the concept out there, either retract it or defend it but don't hide behind semantics.
How can you possibly know what K2 can or can't do? And if Shockey is so adept at getting open (on a top 5 offense) why are his stats not appreciably better than ey's?

Chris ey

2005 Scouting Report - Scouts Inc.
Grade: 66 | (Adequate Starter)
Alert: Y (Young Player, need more film evaluation)

Comment:
ey is more of an HB than a true TE. He line up in the backfield and was a lead blocker at the FB position. He has good quickness and feet. He has sure hands and made the catches that were thrown to him. He is a position blocker that is very willing .Has good body control and change of direction. However, ey does not have the great speed and could not separate or create space from the defender. He has no RAC speed. He was not explosive coming out of cuts and was covered. Had a hard time anchoring the point of attack in the run game. He does not have good lower body strength to push the pile. He just does not any pop coming off the ball. In short, he is a versatile player that can contribute at TE, HB, FB and on special teams.

-----


Jeremy Shockey
2005 Scouting Report - Scouts Inc.
Grade: 79 | (Solid Starter)
Alert: D (Durability issues)

Comment:
He can stretch the seam vertically and has a chance to out run some linebackers. He has excellent ball skills and can get mismatches with his size when he gets into the secondary. He has a very good feel for the open spots in zone coverage and can push off and screen linebackers in man coverage. He lacks the strength in both upper and lower body to be a dominant factor in blocking. He lacks explosiveness and takes poor angles to his blocks. He plays with poor leverage. He sets his feet and gets overextended. He puts his head down and gets knocked around and generally punished when he attempts to block. At times he gets overaggressive and he loses his focus and concentration and will drop the easy catch.

-----


Jason Witten
2005 Scouting Report - Scouts Inc.
Grade: 78 (Solid Starter)
Alert: None

Comment:
Has the burst to reach the second level quickly and can redirect in space. As a receiver, possesses excellent athletic ability, shows good initial quickness and is difficult to jam at the line of scrimmage. Takes little time to reach top speed, is fast enough to work the seam and can make the tough over-the-shoulder catch. Shows good body control and does a nice job of adjusting to passes while their in the air. Is capable of catching the ball in-stride, wastes little motion turning upfield after the catch and is a powerful open field runner that regularly picks up yards after contact. However, Witten is a better blocker than he is a receiver and he must continue to improve his route-running skills. Lacks ideal lower body strength, will struggle working against physical two-gap defensive ends and isn't going to push the pile in short-yardage situations. Doesn't always take great angles to blocks and fails to get into position at times.

-----


L.J Smith
2005 Scouting Report - Scouts Inc.
Grade: 74 | (Good Starter)
Alert: None

Comment:
He is a talented young player who, despite his production and improvement, seems to be slowing down a little bit in his natural progress and maturation from his rookie season. He has all the athletic talent in the world, and while he is a solid football player, you would like to see a little more big play explosiveness from him. He has outstanding quickness off the ball, hits his top gear in a hurry, and has a great short area burst. He is not going to dominate at the point of attack or the line of scrimmage vs. a strong defender who tries to come over the top, and although he has improved in terms of his recognition of angles, Smith will never be a great power blocker. He is more of an H-Back TE, and a guy who needs to be on the move and utilized in the passing game to have success.

-----

Now I like Chris ey a lot, but he is in some damn good company.

I mean, calling him the worst TE/H-B in the NFC East is like calling him the "worst" outfielder on the American League All-Star team.

ey is a good player, like I said, but he lacks the 2nd gear that all the other players at his position and in his division have. He's got hands like glue, but if you don't have the speed and quickness to get deep, or to make some YAC then you are what you are, a good, but not spectacular pass catcher.

Am I less of a fan because I don't think every Redskins player is in the top of the league at their position? Hardly.

Just because ey is used more frequently doesn't make him a more talented player than Shockey, Witten, or Smith. (Maybe ey is better than Smith... happy?)

28green28 wrote:4. Many people might disagree with his, but I think trading this year’s 1st rounder and a few other picks for Jason Campbell was really smart.

That's just impossible to say until he takes the field. It may turn out to be genius, but then again, the drafting of Desmond Howard was thought to be pretty smart at the time. I'd love JC to be a top-tier QB for this team for years to come, but we'll need to see him play first before we can make any sound judgments.

Those are all pretty recent, if we go way back there are a BUNCH that also worked out for the best. But, you are right a few of those at the time, I was like "what are you thinking" I clearly remeber saying that about the passing on Mike Williams. Taylor is the man! I am so glad we got him. But hey, for all those good moves, there have been a BUNCH that didn't work out either. All teams have made good decisions and bad decisions.

Skinsfan55 wrote:Chris ey

2005 Scouting Report - Scouts Inc.
Grade: 66 | (Adequate Starter)
Alert: Y (Young Player, need more film evaluation)

Comment:
ey is more of an HB than a true TE. He line up in the backfield and was a lead blocker at the FB position. He has good quickness and feet. He has sure hands and made the catches that were thrown to him. He is a position blocker that is very willing .Has good body control and change of direction. However, ey does not have the great speed and could not separate or create space from the defender. He has no RAC speed. He was not explosive coming out of cuts and was covered. Had a hard time anchoring the point of attack in the run game. He does not have good lower body strength to push the pile. He just does not any pop coming off the ball. In short, he is a versatile player that can contribute at TE, HB, FB and on special teams.

-----


Jeremy Shockey
2005 Scouting Report - Scouts Inc.
Grade: 79 | (Solid Starter)
Alert: D (Durability issues)

Comment:
He can stretch the seam vertically and has a chance to out run some linebackers. He has excellent ball skills and can get mismatches with his size when he gets into the secondary. He has a very good feel for the open spots in zone coverage and can push off and screen linebackers in man coverage. He lacks the strength in both upper and lower body to be a dominant factor in blocking. He lacks explosiveness and takes poor angles to his blocks. He plays with poor leverage. He sets his feet and gets overextended. He puts his head down and gets knocked around and generally punished when he attempts to block. At times he gets overaggressive and he loses his focus and concentration and will drop the easy catch.

-----


Jason Witten
2005 Scouting Report - Scouts Inc.
Grade: 78 (Solid Starter)
Alert: None

Comment:
Has the burst to reach the second level quickly and can redirect in space. As a receiver, possesses excellent athletic ability, shows good initial quickness and is difficult to jam at the line of scrimmage. Takes little time to reach top speed, is fast enough to work the seam and can make the tough over-the-shoulder catch. Shows good body control and does a nice job of adjusting to passes while their in the air. Is capable of catching the ball in-stride, wastes little motion turning upfield after the catch and is a powerful open field runner that regularly picks up yards after contact. However, Witten is a better blocker than he is a receiver and he must continue to improve his route-running skills. Lacks ideal lower body strength, will struggle working against physical two-gap defensive ends and isn't going to push the pile in short-yardage situations. Doesn't always take great angles to blocks and fails to get into position at times.

-----


L.J Smith
2005 Scouting Report - Scouts Inc.
Grade: 74 | (Good Starter)
Alert: None

Comment:
He is a talented young player who, despite his production and improvement, seems to be slowing down a little bit in his natural progress and maturation from his rookie season. He has all the athletic talent in the world, and while he is a solid football player, you would like to see a little more big play explosiveness from him. He has outstanding quickness off the ball, hits his top gear in a hurry, and has a great short area burst. He is not going to dominate at the point of attack or the line of scrimmage vs. a strong defender who tries to come over the top, and although he has improved in terms of his recognition of angles, Smith will never be a great power blocker. He is more of an H-Back TE, and a guy who needs to be on the move and utilized in the passing game to have success.

-----

Now I like Chris ey a lot, but he is in some damn good company.

I mean, calling him the worst TE/H-B in the NFC East is like calling him the "worst" outfielder on the American League All-Star team.

ey is a good player, like I said, but he lacks the 2nd gear that all the other players at his position and in his division have. He's got hands like glue, but if you don't have the speed and quickness to get deep, or to make some YAC then you are what you are, a good, but not spectacular pass catcher.

Am I less of a fan because I don't think every Redskins player is in the top of the league at their position? Hardly.

Just because ey is used more frequently doesn't make him a more talented player than Shockey, Witten, or Smith. (Maybe ey is better than Smith... happy?)

I didn't, at any point, question whether you were a fan. I just wanted you to defend your post. I happen to disagree with you and I think the scouting assesment of ey will dramatically alter with this year's performance behind him.

Trey53 said "Cooley is a Skin, Winslow ain't. Show some love man!"

That's what I was refering to when I said:

"Am I less of a fan because I don't think every Redskins player is in the top of the league at their position? Hardly."

Maybe you're right about ey's scouting assessment, but I am still not sure he can do too much after the catch...

Skinsfan55 wrote:but I am still not sure he can do too much after the catch...

What? Did you watch any games this year?

cvillehog wrote:

Skinsfan55 wrote:but I am still not sure he can do too much after the catch...

What? Did you watch any games this year?

Exactly, do you (Skinsfan55) honestly think the team would have called those short screens to ey if they felt the guy's RAC ability was lacking?

Seems to me that a good portion of his yards camne after the catch, bowling people over (Terrance Newman anyone) and taking screens for 10 yards or more.

I'm not arguing that he has great speed, but he has good toughness that he uses to get extra yards.

As for the issue at hand, I don't think you can say one is better than the other based on speed or the ability to stretch the field. To me, you have to judge that based on their numbers, their effectiveness in the offense they play in and how the play in big situations.

I think the numbers have already been posted. In this offense, ey goes deep some, and he does draw attention which gives Moss some relief, but he is mostly asked to make catches in traffic or in short yardage situation, so his deep threat ability is not a big part of how good a player he is. As far as big situations, his results have been mixed. Some games he comes up big, and in some games he doesn't, as you would expect from a young player.

Bottom line, I think in terms of what he means to his team, ey and Witten are much more important than Shockey and Smith. Between the two, I think we would have been a much different team without ey, whereas the Cowboys have more receiving talent and could have done without Witten.

Is ey better than the others? Maybe / Maybe not. I sure wouldn't trade him for any of them.

The fact is that the information simply isn't available to make the call.

it isn't available because K2 hasn't played in 2 years (1 year b/c of his own stupidity). That should be enough to tell you that one is worth more than the other.

The waiver-wire and long list of ex-NFL players, whose careers were cut short, is filled with very talented people that "coulda,shoulda,woulda" but never produced either because they choked or were never available to be on the field.

I'm with you in thinking that you can be a fan without thinking that each Redskins is the best at his position. But he was 2nd in yards and tied for 1rst in TD's this year after a rookie season where he also did well. The guy makes plays and is improving even from where he is currently. I'll take that any day over someone like K2 that apprently can "exploit the seams" of a defense with his speed ...

... if he ever gets on the field.

28green28 wrote:I was doing just a little reminiscing.

There were a few great moves that the Redskins have made over the years. The easy ones are the Moss for Coles trade and the decisions to not re-sign Pierce and Smoot. However, there are many other moves that the Skins have made that aren’t as obvious. I am going to list a few. I hope you guys can list some more that I don’t know about, or that I forgot.

1. Taking Sean Taylor over Kellen Winslow Jr. Remember the huge debate about the 5th pick two years ago? Taylor vs. Winslow. Well, it looks as if the Redskins could not have been more right. Taylor has had his disciplinary problems, mind you. However, Winslow has barely seen the field. He had a broken leg his first season and he was put on IR. He didn’t even hit training camp the next season. He tore his ACL riding his motorcycle. The Redskins traded up to the third round to select a fellow named Cris ey. The Redskins made the right personnel call again.

2. Taking Carlos Rogers over Mike Williams. I am ashamed to say that I bought into the Mike Williams hype. He was claimed to be a fast, huge receiver. When he fell to number 9, I really wanted the Redskins to take him. I was slightly bemused when we took Rogers. We did need Rogers, but I thought Williams was exactly what we needed. He had 29 catches for 350 yards and 1 touchdown. Jimmy Johnson described him as a slow tight end. In fact, the Redskins still need a big possession receiver. Mike Williams is not the guy. However, in Rogers, the Redskins have found someone to replace Smoot.

3. Trading Bailey and a 2nd rounder for Portis. Like everyone else I wish that it was a straight up trade: Bailey for Portis. Denver selected Tatum Bell with the 2nd round pick that the Redskins gave them. Portis has been much more effective than Bell. Also, the Redskins signed Shaun Springs to replace Bailey. Wilbon pointed out that Denver is paying Bailey the equivalent of what Washington is paying Portis AND Springs. Both teams got what they needed and the Redskins made the right personnel moves.

4. Many people might disagree with his, but I think trading this year’s 1st rounder and a few other picks for Jason Campbell was really smart. I know we haven’t seen him play yet, but if Gibbs trusts him, we should. Also, there was a possibility that the pick could have been quite high. Since the Redskins did so well this year, it will be a pretty low first rounder. I think it might be the 26th pick in fact (Campbell was taken with the 25th pick last year).

Anyway, that’s just a few musings I have had. I apologize if this should be in another thread. I haven’t been on the website for a little while (so long my account was inactivated) so I haven’t been keeping up to speed with the threads.

Great first post 28green28

I'm not sure how this became the ey vs Kellen Winswho thread....nor do I care, but appreciate your observations and agree with them all.

Welcome to the site....enjoy!

Skinsfan55 wrote:Yeah, I love ey, but who's to say K2 wouldn't have been an awesome fit for this team?

Because he is a stupid baby Pre-Madonna me-me-me player who won't listen to coaches or teamates.

Winslow could stretch defenses, ey finds small holes to make short catches.

You mean, like that 52 Yarder ey had last week? Plus, if you want to stretch defenses, well that's why we have Santana Moss.

I am a big fan of ey's but Winslow > Taylor might have been a better move, we'll just never know if he would have stayed healthy.

Um, actuall no. Sean Taylor was the right choice.

IMO, Best Redskin trade ever - Sonny for Norm Sneed.