The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

For all those of you who are ready to ride Gibbs out of town consider the following. In his first two years with the Chargers, Marty won: 12 games. In his first two years with the Rams, Vermeil won 9 games. And in his first two years with the Chiefs, Vermeil won 14 games. In his first two years with the Skins, Part II, Gibbs has already won 11 games, with 5 games remaining.

With apologies to John Lennon, all I am saying is give Gibbs a chance. Good football programs are not built in a single season, they are crafted over a number of years. A new coaching staff needs to bring in players that fit the schemes and the salary cap precludes doing that all in one year. Think about some of the best teams out there, they’ve had the same program year after year after year. Few coaches turn things around immediately.

Consider this: In Marty’s third year, he won 12 games. In Vermeil’s third year: 13 games. In Vermeil’s third year with the Chiefs 13 games. I think the Skins have an excellent shot at finishing 9-7 this year. Granted they had a chance this year to win a few of those close games and be in a much better position, but we’re making progress. The last thing we need now is more wholesale turnover.

Marty Schottenheimer:
2002 San Diego 8-8
2003 San Diego 4-12
2004 San Diego 12-4 0 .750

Dick Vermeil (Rams)
1997 St. Louis 5-11
1998 St. Louis 4-12
1999 St. Louis 13-3

Dick Vermeil (Chiefs)
2001 kansas city 6-10
2002 kansas city 8-8
2003 kansas city 13-3

Sometimes, teams can show immediate improvement - look at what Marvin Lewis has done with the Bengals. The Bungles were 2-14 when he took over, and he immediately added 6 wins to go 8-8 in his first year. His second year he stayed at 8-8 but he was breaking in a new QB (Carson Palmer), and had a ton of injuries (something like 18 starters went down that season). This year, he's 8-3 in a tough division, and the Bengals nearly ended Indy's streak. Overall, Lewis took over a 2-14 team that was a joke and hadn't had a winning season since 1990, and has built a 24-19 record over three years.
I'm not saying Gibbs has failed - it's too early for that - but sometimes he just seems too "nice". For once, I'd like to see him explode on the team (maybe he does in private?) for some of the stupidity we see out on the field. Make 'em show up for practice on their day off if they've lost - something to show that he finds losing unacceptable. I'm tired of the "well, they fought their guts out today" consolation speech. I realize being a screamer isn't Gibbs' style, and I do respect him for his class, but maybe it's time to try something different. These late-game collapses are too painful.

Skeletor wrote:Dick Vermeil (Chiefs)
2001 kansas city 6-10
2002 kansas city 8-8
2003 kansas city 13-3

That looks like the path we're headed down.

Emporer Danny does not have the patience it takes to build a team.
Gibbs took only 1 building year and it was a Superbowl win the next in 81-82.
Thats a football coach. Where is he now????
Different times, I know, but sheesh...

Isn't this only Tom Coughlin's 2nd year in NY? They were also 6-10 last year, but this year they've already passed that number. We haven't. Coaches don't just change the personnel; they change the attitude of the personnel. They make a statement that things are going to change NOW. Gibbs needs to cut someone just to show that losing is unacceptable to this organization.

Also add Marvin Lewis to the list after last years 8-8 season it looks like he has them headed to the playoffs in this his third year.

Gibbs is the man always will be. Of course patience is running thin with some. But all in all progress is going as schedueled. We are definately better off this year. I would honestly be happy with 9-7 this year. I seriously hope we get Campbell in there next year. We need young blood in there look at Rothlesburger I have a feeling we could do the same thing. Also we really really need a crop of young defensive ends will greatly improve our team. We do have an oppurtunity to back into the playoffs we play our division counter parts in our last three games.

Marty Schottenheimer:
2002 San Diego 8-8
2003 San Diego 4-12
2004 San Diego 12-4 0 .750

Dick Vermeil (Rams)
1997 St. Louis 5-11
1998 St. Louis 4-12
1999 St. Louis 13-3

Dick Vermeil (Chiefs)
2001 kansas city 6-10
2002 kansas city 8-8
2003 kansas city 13-3

I agree that Gibbs can turn things around. However, you are overlooking a major difference between those teams ours....the quarterback. Vermeil (Rams) had Warner who won an MVP. Vermeil (Chiefs) had Trent Green who is one of the most underrated qb's in the NFL and silently puts up very good numbers year in and year out. Marty has brought Brees along to the point that he is now one of the better qb's in the NFL. We, on the other hand, have Brunell, who is a stop-gap. He is already wearing down this year so I think it'll be very tough for us to win with him next year as he'll be a year older. It's clear that Joe doesn't trust Ramsey so he'll likely be gone after this season. And if we start Jason Campbell next season then we're going to have to deal with the growing pains of a young qb. It will be tough for us to improve dramatically next year with our current qb situation.

Skeletor wrote:For all those of you who are ready to ride Gibbs out of town consider the following. In his first two years with the Chargers, Marty won: 12 games. In his first two years with the Rams, Vermeil won 9 games. And in his first two years with the Chiefs, Vermeil won 14 games. In his first two years with the Skins, Part II, Gibbs has already won 11 games, with 5 games remaining.

With apologies to John Lennon, all I am saying is give Gibbs a chance. Good football programs are not built in a single season, they are crafted over a number of years. A new coaching staff needs to bring in players that fit the schemes and the salary cap precludes doing that all in one year. Think about some of the best teams out there, they’ve had the same program year after year after year. Few coaches turn things around immediately.

Consider this: In Marty’s third year, he won 12 games. In Vermeil’s third year: 13 games. In Vermeil’s third year with the Chiefs 13 games. I think the Skins have an excellent shot at finishing 9-7 this year. Granted they had a chance this year to win a few of those close games and be in a much better position, but we’re making progress. The last thing we need now is more wholesale turnover.

Marty Schottenheimer:
2002 San Diego 8-8
2003 San Diego 4-12
2004 San Diego 12-4 0 .750

Dick Vermeil (Rams)
1997 St. Louis 5-11
1998 St. Louis 4-12
1999 St. Louis 13-3

Dick Vermeil (Chiefs)
2001 kansas city 6-10
2002 kansas city 8-8
2003 kansas city 13-3

now you know how i feel and from where i,m coming from.
gibbs can,t do it overnight but he will before it,s all said and done.
a few more santanas along with a few c griffins and carlos rogers we will get there.thats truly where the problem is with this team is that joe doesn,t have enough of what he needs and thats playmakers and core skins but with time and a little patience it will get there.

damn it,s killing me though 3 games that should have been but when you don,t play 4 quarters you will likely lose the game. it,s called growing pains and damn it hurts.

Skeletor wrote:For all those of you who are ready to ride Gibbs out of town consider the following. In his first two years with the Chargers, Marty won: 12 games. In his first two years with the Rams, Vermeil won 9 games. And in his first two years with the Chiefs, Vermeil won 14 games. In his first two years with the Skins, Part II, Gibbs has already won 11 games, with 5 games remaining.

With apologies to John Lennon, all I am saying is give Gibbs a chance. Good football programs are not built in a single season, they are crafted over a number of years. A new coaching staff needs to bring in players that fit the schemes and the salary cap precludes doing that all in one year. Think about some of the best teams out there, they’ve had the same program year after year after year. Few coaches turn things around immediately.

Consider this: In Marty’s third year, he won 12 games. In Vermeil’s third year: 13 games. In Vermeil’s third year with the Chiefs 13 games. I think the Skins have an excellent shot at finishing 9-7 this year. Granted they had a chance this year to win a few of those close games and be in a much better position, but we’re making progress. The last thing we need now is more wholesale turnover.

Marty Schottenheimer:
2002 San Diego 8-8
2003 San Diego 4-12
2004 San Diego 12-4 0 .750

Dick Vermeil (Rams)
1997 St. Louis 5-11
1998 St. Louis 4-12
1999 St. Louis 13-3

Dick Vermeil (Chiefs)
2001 kansas city 6-10
2002 kansas city 8-8
2003 kansas city 13-3

Amen!

Sounds good to me.

DEHog wrote:Also add Marvin Lewis to the list after last years 8-8 season it looks like he has them headed to the playoffs in this his third year.

Those guys did with organizations that had some type of stability in the years prior but were just bad teams.
Gibbs to over a organization that had revoling doors at the Fire Exits.

Jake wrote:

Skeletor wrote:Dick Vermeil (Chiefs)
2001 kansas city 6-10
2002 kansas city 8-8
2003 kansas city 13-3

That looks like the path we're headed down.

Hey, I'll take that anyday.

(But I have a feeling we'll be better than 8-8 this year )

Mursilis wrote:Isn't this only Tom Coughlin's 2nd year in NY? They were also 6-10 last year, but this year they've already passed that number. We haven't. Coaches don't just change the personnel; they change the attitude of the personnel. They make a statement that things are going to change NOW. Gibbs needs to cut someone just to show that losing is unacceptable to this organization.

You make a good point. I just think inheriting a team 3 or 4 years after a Superbowl appearance that had the same coach for what...7 years? (Fassel) and also had the same core group of players for years is a little easier to deal with.

We all know what has gone on in DC this century. We went from the 1992 Pro Bowl Squad playing in 2000 to Marty cleaning house and starting to build around Davis...to....the idiot from Florida trying a college offense with 10 receivers...to....Coach Gibbs trying to get us back to the Pro Level. I can't stand the conservative play calling with a lead, but I love the direction this franchise is heading.

I can remember feeling like our team didn't even belong on the same field with our opponent 2 and 3 years ago. Atleast now we are waiting till the 4th quarter and beyond to give the game away instead of at the coin toss.

[quote="Skeletor"] The last thing we need now is more wholesale turnover.

I agree.
so does man at arms and orco

gibbsfan wrote:

Skeletor wrote:For all those of you who are ready to ride Gibbs out of town consider the following. In his first two years with the Chargers, Marty won: 12 games. In his first two years with the Rams, Vermeil won 9 games. And in his first two years with the Chiefs, Vermeil won 14 games. In his first two years with the Skins, Part II, Gibbs has already won 11 games, with 5 games remaining.

With apologies to John Lennon, all I am saying is give Gibbs a chance. Good football programs are not built in a single season, they are crafted over a number of years. A new coaching staff needs to bring in players that fit the schemes and the salary cap precludes doing that all in one year. Think about some of the best teams out there, they’ve had the same program year after year after year. Few coaches turn things around immediately.

Consider this: In Marty’s third year, he won 12 games. In Vermeil’s third year: 13 games. In Vermeil’s third year with the Chiefs 13 games. I think the Skins have an excellent shot at finishing 9-7 this year. Granted they had a chance this year to win a few of those close games and be in a much better position, but we’re making progress. The last thing we need now is more wholesale turnover.

Marty Schottenheimer:
2002 San Diego 8-8
2003 San Diego 4-12
2004 San Diego 12-4 0 .750

Dick Vermeil (Rams)
1997 St. Louis 5-11
1998 St. Louis 4-12
1999 St. Louis 13-3

Dick Vermeil (Chiefs)
2001 kansas city 6-10
2002 kansas city 8-8
2003 kansas city 13-3

now you know how i feel and from where i,m coming from.
gibbs can,t do it overnight but he will before it,s all said and done.
a few more santanas along with a few c griffins and carlos rogers we will get there.thats truly where the problem is with this team is that joe doesn,t have enough of what he needs and thats playmakers and core skins but with time and a little patience it will get there.

damn it,s killing me though 3 games that should have been but when you don,t play 4 quarters you will likely lose the game. it,s called growing pains and damn it hurts.

I agree with you 100% but we are now at a critical juncture. Things must change now, this team is going backwards and it seems like all the progress we made earlier in the year has been wiped out.

Agreed, things will not happen overnight, I don't care if we miss the playoffs but we must start going in a POSITIVE direction once more or they will not be any better down the road. We MADE a lot of progress at the BEGINNING of the year but now we are almost back to being the team we have seen the last two seasons.

Having said all of that, I feel that Gibbs is THE MAN FOR THE JOB. I still have faith that he CAN turn things around and we can start to progress once more but it is one thing for me to think it and quite another for him to do it. I hope that he can do it because if he can't I don't think anyone can.

SkinzCanes wrote:

Marty Schottenheimer:
2002 San Diego 8-8
2003 San Diego 4-12
2004 San Diego 12-4 0 .750

Dick Vermeil (Rams)
1997 St. Louis 5-11
1998 St. Louis 4-12
1999 St. Louis 13-3

Dick Vermeil (Chiefs)
2001 kansas city 6-10
2002 kansas city 8-8
2003 kansas city 13-3

I agree that Gibbs can turn things around. However, you are overlooking a major difference between those teams ours....the quarterback. Vermeil (Rams) had Warner who won an MVP. Vermeil (Chiefs) had Trent Green who is one of the most underrated qb's in the NFL and silently puts up very good numbers year in and year out. Marty has brought Brees along to the point that he is now one of the better qb's in the NFL. We, on the other hand, have Brunell, who is a stop-gap. He is already wearing down this year so I think it'll be very tough for us to win with him next year as he'll be a year older. It's clear that Joe doesn't trust Ramsey so he'll likely be gone after this season. And if we start Jason Campbell next season then we're going to have to deal with the growing pains of a young qb. It will be tough for us to improve dramatically next year with our current qb situation.

Good points, thats why we need to put in JC for the remaining 5 games! start getting him some real playing time. I agree we're making progress and have a Mathmatical chance at the playoffs, but we need to bring JC up to speed if we spent those picks on him. And whos to say he couldnt guide this team to 9-7 or 8-8 anyway.

Agreed Gibbs won us a superbowl, he should get his whole contract. You don't fire legends.

I think a lot of people have forgotten where we were not too long ago.

I think very few comprehend the hand that Gibbs has to play in regards to dealing with the leftovers from Spurriers reign and Dannys loose pockets.

Considering the circumstances we're doing just great.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:I think a lot of people have forgotten where we were not too long ago.

I think very few comprehend the hand that Gibbs has to play in regards to dealing with the leftovers from Spurriers reign and Dannys loose pockets.

Considering the circumstances we're doing just great.

That excuse is only going to work for just a little longer. At some point, this team needs to win, not play another round of pass the buck. Bill Belichick was coaching his team in the Super Bowl his second year in New England. Heck, Gibbs won the Super Bowl in his 2nd season too, the first time he was here. I don't buy that "He's still fixing what Spurrier broke" line anymore.

Mursilis wrote:That excuse is only going to work for just a little longer. At some point, this team needs to win, not play another round of pass the buck. Bill Belichick was coaching his team in the Super Bowl his second year in New England. Heck, Gibbs won the Super Bowl in his 2nd season too, the first time he was here. I don't buy that "He's still fixing what Spurrier broke" line anymore.

It's not what Steven Superior broke. It's what he helped tear down. "the Danny" can shoulder most of the blame. It started when he fired a coach mid-season with a winning record, then he went and hired a guy from ESPN and fired him when he broke even. That's when the ole ball coach road into town for some pitchin' and catchin'. The whole time "the Danny" is trying to buy a ring and his assorted coaches new they wouldn't be around as long as the big money players. That is what Gibbs is undoing and that's about a decade of undoing he is a year and a half into. Most Coaches and GMs have what they call a 3 year plan. I'd give Joe 3 years with the mess that has been done to this team on every level over the last 10 years before I'd get too wooried. But after a year and a half I can see a change in the Front Office, Locker room, Fans and the Press. Most if not all is due to the signing of Joe Gibbs.

I agree, Gibbs gets his whole contract...however, does that mean that we can't bring in an offensive coordinator? I mean, the NFL has changed, and while I have full confidence that Coach Gibbs can handle the new league, a fresh offensive perspective could certainly be helpful....

However, i fully agree with the gist of this thread...you have to build contenders, and this team is considerably better than the spurrier teams....

As for the leftovers though, I wouldn't say that this team is not talented enough to win...there are holes that we need to address, but I do think there has been a problem with maximizing that talent...I'm sure that Coach Gibbs can continue to progress and figure out how to do that, but his job might get a lot easier with a bright young offensive mind (kind of like what Gibbs was in 1981)

The thing I find depressing about all this is that Gibbs used to be the master of the mid-game adjustment. Anyone remember that Super Bowl vs. Denver in which Gibbs noted that the Broncos D was stacking the box in the first quarter, shutting down the Redskins' running game? Gibbs made an immediate adjustment in the second quarter, opening up the deep passing game, and had the game all but over by half-time.
Now, after losing three games in a row in pretty much the same fashion, I'm still looking for the adjustment to solve that problem. It's too much like last year, when he stuck with Brunell for so long despite the fact he was obviously too injured to be useful.

Mursilis wrote:The thing I find depressing about all this is that Gibbs used to be the master of the mid-game adjustment. Anyone remember that Super Bowl vs. Denver in which Gibbs noted that the Broncos D was stacking the box in the first quarter, shutting down the Redskins' running game? Gibbs made an immediate adjustment in the second quarter, opening up the deep passing game, and had the game all but over by half-time.
Now, after losing three games in a row in pretty much the same fashion, I'm still looking for the adjustment to solve that problem. It's too much like last year, when he stuck with Brunell for so long despite the fact he was obviously too injured to be useful.

Yeah, I'm beginning to wonder about that halftime adjustment thing as well. My guess is that it's a lot easier to make brilliant halftime adjustments when you've got Monk, Clark, Sanders, Didier, Warren, Jacoby, Grimm, Bostic et al on your team.