The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I wasn't sure about having two small, shifty receivers as starters. But I was thinking that with Ramsey and his gun..he could launch it to them and really spread the field. I imagine Brunell would do better with bigger possession type receivers. I don't imagine he will be gunslinging it a la Brett Favre. I see him throwing a lot of screens and 8 step outs.

I don't know how effective Santana Moss can be with Brunell throwing to him. Remember noodle arm Pennington. Moss only exploded when Quincy Carter came in. Moss needs someone who can launch it. Not someone who's forte is throwing 10 yards.

No WRs fit with Brunell. He's terrible.

I am completely against starting Brunell on Monday or ever. He may be smarter than Ramsey but he simply cannot make the throws.

JPM36 wrote:No WRs fit with Brunell. He's terrible.

I am completely against starting Brunell on Monday or ever. He may be smarter than Ramsey but he simply cannot make the throws.

Seriously, when was the last time Ramsey connected on a deep bomb? He was underthrowing ALLLLLLLL preseason long. Not only was he doing it in the preseason but during training camp. Ramseys ONLY edge on Brunell was his arm and for whatever reason he wasn't/couldnt use it.

Im not all rah rah rah for Brunell but Ramsey is not the Peyton Manning some people paint him to be.

Brunell better find a way to get it to Moss and Patten.Brunell and the short hitch passes will only take the team so far.I want to see some deep pass plays that will stretch the defense.Brunell is better than last year according to the "coaches".Let's see some results this monday. Lets prove the skins are not a thirty first rated type of offense anymore.T.D.'s!!!That is what we need!!!

I never said Ramsey was any good. But I will maintain that he gives us a better chance of going vertical than Brunell.


The thing that bothers me most about this thing is this outrageous perception among our fans, the local media, even the national media that Brunell is this heady mistake free QB. Of course Ramsey makes mistakes, but this idea that Brunell minimizes mistakes and keeps our team in games is simply not true. Brunell had fumbles that were returned for TDs in both the Tampa Bay game and the Baltimore game last year, and also had an interception returned for a TD in the Chicago game. He makes crippling mistakes all the time.


I guess it's just pick your poison but I prefer Ramsey.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Seriously, when was the last time Ramsey connected on a deep bomb? He was underthrowing ALLLLLLLL preseason long. Not only was he doing it in the preseason but during training camp. Ramseys ONLY edge on Brunell was his arm and for whatever reason he wasn't/couldnt use it.

the answers are all right in front of you. the last time ramsey connected on a deep bomb was probably during the first 3 games of the 2003 season, before coles hurt his toe. prior to that, he had been trying to run the pass-wacky "Fun 'N' Gun" with Rod Gardner as his #1 receiver!! Rod Gardner, who has a harder time getting seperation than siamese twins! and whenever he DID get open deep, ramsey would throw it up there, and gardner would slow up, misjudging the ball, then realize it was going farther than he thought, and he'd speed back up again, and everyone would groan "Ramsey overthrew him!"

then after coles got hurt, ramsey was throwing to 2 receivers who had a hard time getting open deep (not to mention the fact that he was getting nailed before the receivers had time to GET deep).

so then we ship off the old WRs and get two new incredibly fast ones. so ramsey throws his normal deep ball he's been working on for 2 years to get it to rod gardner, and moss is 5-10 yards ahead of it. it's just a matter of chemistry, timing- which only gets better with experience. i thought ramsey and moss were starting to get a little closer throughout the preseason, and would really connect at some point early on in the season.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Im not all rah rah rah for Brunell but Ramsey is not the Peyton Manning some people paint him to be.

i am probably one of the biggest ramsey proponents on this board, but even i will not say he is any peyton manning. but the point is, we don't need peyton manning, we just need mark rypien. patrick ramsey can be as good as mark rypien was.

i am probably one of the biggest ramsey proponents on this board, but even i will not say he is any peyton manning. but the point is, we don't need peyton manning, we just need mark rypien. patrick ramsey can be as good as mark rypien was.

I agree ... BTW - if people say Ramsey is underthrowing our faster receivers (faster than last year). Imagine how badly they will be underthrown by a QB who was underthrowing Rod Gardner and Coles last year. I mean if you are underthrowing and one-hopping your passes to these "speed demons" then god help us when someone with real speed is running the routes.

thaiphoon wrote:

i am probably one of the biggest ramsey proponents on this board, but even i will not say he is any peyton manning. but the point is, we don't need peyton manning, we just need mark rypien. patrick ramsey can be as good as mark rypien was.

I agree ... BTW - if people say Ramsey is underthrowing our faster receivers (faster than last year). Imagine how badly they will be underthrown by a QB who was underthrowing Rod Gardner and Coles last year. I mean if you are underthrowing and one-hopping your passes to these "speed demons" then god help us when someone with real speed is running the routes.

bless you thaiphoon! nice to have a voice of reason around here.

thaiphoon wrote:

i am probably one of the biggest ramsey proponents on this board, but even i will not say he is any peyton manning. but the point is, we don't need peyton manning, we just need mark rypien. patrick ramsey can be as good as mark rypien was.

I agree ... BTW - if people say Ramsey is underthrowing our faster receivers (faster than last year). Imagine how badly they will be underthrown by a QB who was underthrowing Rod Gardner and Coles last year. I mean if you are underthrowing and one-hopping your passes to these "speed demons" then god help us when someone with real speed is running the routes.

They say that the cat was injured and that it was his hammy. Boller screwed up his big toe and they said even THAT will effect your throwing, so of course Brunell with a bad hammy would be hindered.

During the preseason, Brunell was the one connecting on his passes not Ramsey. I dont understand why everyone is taking things so personal. If Ramsey made the throws that he needed to make then we wouldn't be in this situation. Brunell connected on a few long throws in the offseason. He would have had one for a TD if A. Brown didn't drop it.

I think the stats from the 2005 pre season do their own talking. Notice the Int's.

Att Com Yds % Ypa TD TD% INT INT % Long Rating

Ramsey 51 30 418 58.8 8.2 2 3.9 4 7.8 46 65.6
Brunell 58 34 406 58.6 7.0 1 1.7 0 0.0 29 85.8

I know that many of you are going to argue that Ramsey has more yards on less attempts and Ramsey did a better job of getting the ball down the field. But remember Brunell wasn't throwing to Moss and Patten for most of the preseason. I know for a fact Brown dropped a long touchdown pass from Brunnell so his performance was actually better than the numbers indicate.

I bet many of you also will argue that brunnell put up the better numbers while playing against a second teame D. But how many of P Ram's interceptions where a result of a great defensive play? I couldn't recall any.

JPM36 wrote:No WRs fit with Brunell. He's terrible.

I am completely against starting Brunell on Monday or ever. He may be smarter than Ramsey but he simply cannot make the throws.

Neither can Ramsey

brunnel was selfish last year if he stayed in there while being injured. Either that or Gibbs was stubborn to understand the effects of the injury.


ramsey is has the better arm and he's been taking the QB reps all preseason. I think he needed more time to prove himself.


I'll cheer for the skins to do well everytime, but brunnel just doesnt convince me that he ca do any better than Ramsey.


oh, and I remember ramsey connecting on long balls twice during the bengals preseason game...Both to patten I believe.

ComebackSkins wrote:brunnel was selfish last year if he stayed in there while being injured. Either that or Gibbs was stubborn to understand the effects of the injury.

So you actually think the following conversations probably took place:
Ramsey: Dude, your leg is hurt, take a break
Brunell: It's MY leg, NO!

Ramsey: His leg is hurt
Gibbs: So what?
Ramsey: His leg is hurt
Gibbs: So what?
Ramsey: His leg is hurt
Gibbs: I'm too stubborn to understand that!

ComebackSkins wrote:brunnel was selfish last year if he stayed in there while being injured. Either that or Gibbs was stubborn to understand the effects of the injury.

.

I'll just paste what I wrote about that in another board:

Sorry man, I beg to differ. Have you ever competed at a high level of a sport? If so, you'd know that most coaches will implore you to play through pain. Furthermore, if the injury is not something that completely disables you, you'll figure out a way to play, no matter the circumstances. As a competitor, you want to be out there no matter what and mentally, you tell and convince yourself you can do it.

I'm not saying this to get into an argument about Brunnell, I'm saying this as an athlete who has competed and done so hurt at some pretty high levels. It's not at all unusual for an athlete to hide or mask injuries because, as competitors, you want to be out there. In the wide world of sports, if you don't play and think like that, you're considered a weak link who doesn't deserve to play that sport.

I do think that the biggest factor in Gibb's decision was the amount of INTs thrown by Ramsey. Brunell simply took better care of the ball. Even the INT he threw that was called back would have been a catch if the Defender hadn't pulled Moss's jersey. Brunell has been pretty good on the deep routes...he just hasn't thrown downfield very much.

I know for a fact Brown dropped a long touchdown pass from Brunnell so his performance was actually better than the numbers indicate.

That was the best deep ball thrown so far, by either QB...I mean it hit Brown in the facemask...sheesh.

All that being said I do not beleive Ramsey got a fair shot. Of course this is the NFL and it ain't about fair. It is about results. So I guess we'll see Monday night...

In our discussion, we've failed to mention that Joe's offense doesn't take 20 shots down field all the time, so why would we need a big arm that lacks touch and is prone to throw it to the other team?

So what if he throws it 5 yds to our speedy receivers? They're being paid to make plays, and they ar emore than capable of making huge gains out of the simplest plays.

Not giving up the ball every game, will give them even more opportunities to make said plays. With every Ramsey INT, that's one less chance for our WRs to stretch the field.


BEAT DALLAS!!!

I went back to the film (TiVO makes me feel like a real coach!!) after the decision was made.

Ramsey was fired up at first and as a result was overthrowing a bit. The first drive, Ramsey over threw Santana Moss, resulting in an interception. The QB always gets blamed for these (even though an anonymous player tld Demasio that one of the receivers ran the wrong route resulting in the INT).

Starting on the second drive, Ramsey settled down a bit, completed some nice passes, began driving down the field, then froze in the pocket, got hit from behind on a coverage sack and fumbled, albeit recovered by the Redskins, but ending the drive nontheless.

In the third drive, Ramsey really had the offense clicking, completing multiple intermediate passes resulting in the most impressive drive of the game, until Briggs took his head off resulting in a fumble, ending the Skins best scoring chance.

Result:
Drive 1: Interception due to either an overthrown pass or a bad route, depending on whose story you believe.

Drive 2: Fumble due to lack of awareness in the pocket, happens to the best of them, but likely the thing Coach Gibbs has been asking Ramsey to work on that Jansen eluded to on Comcast SportsNet.

Drive 3: Decapitation resulting in a fumble, partly due to Jansen trying to block 2 guys with 9 fingers.

Brunell took over from here, and was putrid in the remainder of the first half going 2-7, although the running game picked up (likely because the Skins were fired up due to the non-call on Briggs) and the skins were able to get two field goals.

The second half, the passing game saw the benefit of a good running game, and Brunell looked a bit better, even completing a 23-yard pass to ey. His pocket precense was as it should be with a veteran QB, however the offense lacked the spark it needed to convert in the Red Zone, in no small part due to the stout Chicago defense.

The bottom line is that the Redskins offense looked better under Ramsey for the most part, but Brunell's ability to avoid big mistakes (other than the terrible pass that was intercepted though didn't count) was very evident in comparison to Ramsey.

It appears to me that Coach Gibbs has decided that for the Washington Redskins, the potential for the offense to be explosive is not as important as veteran poise and decision making in the pocket, possibly due to the effectiveness of the Washington defense.

I like Ramsey. I am a huge supporter and I would have liked to have seen him get more of a shot. I think that given a few more games, the offense could have been as strong as the defense. Let's face it. Ramsey threw less interceptions the TD's in the chuck and duck offense, so the assertion that he is an interception-prone quarterback by nature is absurd.

That's my opinion, but my opinion means as much to the direction of the team as my jock strap. We entrusted Coach Gibbs with our team -- and the hopes and aspirations that go with it. It's OK for us to disagree with the move, but it's his butt on the line, not ours.

Who here has the credentials, the knowledge and the insight that Coach Gibbs has to making this team a Champion? Funny, I don't see anyone raising their hands.

Everyone keeps referring to stats from last year or the pre-season. Why not look at the stats from last weeks game?

Brunell

Played 41 minutes of game
Passing Yardage = 70
Average passing yards per minute played = 1.71
Interceptions = 0 with one voided by a penalty (lucky)
Fumbles = 0
Touchdowns = 0
Fieldgoals = 3

Ramsey

Played 19 minutes of game
Passing Yardage = 105
Average passing yards per minute played = 5.53
Interceptions = 1
Fumbles = 2 (no one could have held onto the ball one the
last one)
Touchdowns = 0 with 1 voided by penalty (unlucky)
Fieldgoals = 0

My point is that comparing both quarterbacks with the same defense and same offensive players, there is a choice between the one that turns the ball over to much and the one that does not produce much.

Personnaly, I did not see much difference between this years Brunell vs last years Brunell or this years Ramsey vs last years Ramsey.

The second half, the passing game saw the benefit of a good running game, and Brunell looked a bit better, even completing a 23-yard pass to ey. His pocket precense was as it should be with a veteran QB, however the offense lacked the spark it needed to convert in the Red Zone, in no small part due to the stout Chicago defense.

Chicago was #4 in Red Zone D last season and is no slouch. Just wanted to add that to your point.

aswas71788 wrote:Brunell

Played 41 minutes of game
Passing Yardage = 70
Average passing yards per minute played = 1.71
Interceptions = 0 with one voided by a penalty (lucky)
Fumbles = 0
Touchdowns = 0
Fieldgoals = 3

Ramsey

Played 19 minutes of game
Passing Yardage = 105
Average passing yards per minute played = 5.53
Interceptions = 1
Fumbles = 2 (no one could have held onto the ball one the
last one)
Touchdowns = 0 with 1 voided by penalty (unlucky)
Fieldgoals = 0

:roll: You forgot the most important stat of all...

POINTS SCORED BY TEAM WITH

RAMSEY under center = 0

BRUNELL under center = 9

At last check, 9 > 0 ...

But, I'll contact you if it should ever change, okay?


BEAT DALLAS!!!

I also TIVO'd the game and watched it again yesterday...what pleased me was the results of the last "real" drive: we got the ball back (after a great defensive stand) with 5:42 to go, and by the time the Bears got it back there was 1:43 to go, were on their own 20, and had expended all 3 time-outs. The big play: 3rd and 5, Brunnel scoops up a low snap in shotgun formation and quickly throws to Moss for a 15-yard gain...

Brunell will be a lot better with these guys than Ramsey. Ramsey's the one who needs big WRs because he has poor accuracy and is erratic.

In preseason Brunell was extremely accurate and that translates into yards after the catch. Ramsey can't even throw a hitch pass without making the reciever have to reach behind him to catch it.

He also threw a lot of nice deep balls as well, I don't know what you guys are talking about. The TD to Farris, quite a few to Brown, etc... Those were all better than any ball Ramsey threw except Thrash's TD and balls that Patten and Moss made great adjustments to. Showed a lot of arm strength on throws to the sideline as well and more zip than Ramsey and that's the truth.

In fact, his best connection was with Brown who was a smaller target than Moss or Patten. These guys are the perfect WRs for Brunell! Just watch Moss pile up his YACs. He'll be very dangerous.

REDEEMEDSKIN wrote:

aswas71788 wrote:Brunell

Played 41 minutes of game
Passing Yardage = 70
Average passing yards per minute played = 1.71
Interceptions = 0 with one voided by a penalty (lucky)
Fumbles = 0
Touchdowns = 0
Fieldgoals = 3

Ramsey

Played 19 minutes of game
Passing Yardage = 105
Average passing yards per minute played = 5.53
Interceptions = 1
Fumbles = 2 (no one could have held onto the ball one the
last one)
Touchdowns = 0 with 1 voided by penalty (unlucky)
Fieldgoals = 0

:roll: You forgot the most important stat of all...

POINTS SCORED BY TEAM WITH

RAMSEY under center = 0

BRUNELL under center = 9

At last check, 9 > 0 ...

But, I'll contact you if it should ever change, okay?


BEAT DALLAS!!!

no, ramsey scored a touchdown. the refs took it away. it doesn't make a difference in the score, but it sure makes a difference in your analysis of the QBs.

so, in 19 minutes, ramsey scored 7 points-- an average of 0.37 points per minute, which would result in 22.2 points per game.
in 41 minutes, brunell scored 9 points-- an average of 0.22 points per minute, which would result in 13.2 points per game.

let it go man... let it go...

sch1977 wrote:

JPM36 wrote:No WRs fit with Brunell. He's terrible.

I am completely against starting Brunell on Monday or ever. He may be smarter than Ramsey but he simply cannot make the throws.

Neither can Ramsey

Ramsey made more good throws against the Bears in one quarter than Brunell did in three. Brunell can't even threaten deep. The Cowboys are going to come to the line and do Portis grevious injury. That's going to be the biggest cost of this epical stupidity.