The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

While there are several threads discussing the merits and/or faults of Coach Gibbs' latest decision, my question lies in the realm of perceptions and belief about ole Coach Joe himself. When Lil Dan brought Joe back, there was much media given to the fact that Joe is a god fearing man of strong character, and that when he brings players to the team, he will be looking to find men of strong character as well as ability ( a 'true Redskin'). I truly feel that Joe has shattered that perception with his recent move, and the belief in his character as an upstanding individual is in doubt.

Now before flames start shooting out of your heads and acid seeps out of your pores, let me first tell you what I know:

- Patrick played poorly in the preseason, making it difficult to logically solidify his spot as starter.

- Brunell looked sharp in the preseason, like the guy we thought we were getting last year.

- Gibbs named Patrick the starter for the season a long time ago, and had been sticking to it publically.

I know all of these things, and am fully aware that many times the head coach will have to make the tough call in the best interests of the entire team. But where I take umbrage is not how the decision was made or who it was made in favor of, but solely in the way it was handled and accomplished. If you are going to name a QB the starter, you have to give him the opportunity to perform. Last season, Joe gave Brunell every opportunity he possibly could to get it going until it was apparent that it was not going to happen. The fans suffered as Brunell struggled, and while I didn't agree with him starting week in and out, I at the very least respected Gibbs for sticking with the guy he thought was going to perform.

Now, when we fast forward to week one here, Patrick was hit or miss early on in the game, had made mistakes but was working to make up for them on the field when he took that hit for the team. Now while I fully understand and actually agree with the decision to sit Pat out for the rest of the game (after all, a QB with a neck strain may have some difficulty seeing the field and turning his head, etc.), you have to give that man the opportunity to perform, just as you did for Brunell in the previous season.

Because he did not, the perception is he was just waiting for the very first chance he could to yank Patrick out and put 'his guy' in the starting role. It appears that all he has said about giving Patrick an opportunity as the starter for this team was, literally, HOGWASH. I believe that if Joe had made this decision at the end of the preseason after evaluating play, it would have caused an outcry and been controversial but would have been understood by many. But because he did not and took advantage of an injury to enact what was apparently his heart's desire, I feel he has lost a measure of respect within the Burgundy and Gold fan community and elsewhere throughout NFL fandom.

Now I know how much my level of respect truly matters to Joe Jackson Gibbs (somewhere between 0.0 and 0.1%), but what worries me is the respect level for him of the players under his charge. I'm sure Pat has many friends on the team, and while I am sure that they know this is about business in the end, this issue also speaks to trust. Trust that when the coach says "this is what it's gonna be", then that's what it is. Trust that when he says "You will get every opportunity to contribute", then that is what he will do. What Joe has done in the manner he has done it could end up raising a lot of concerns about the morale of the team. Now, of course these men are all professionals who are all proud of what they do and all want to accomplish the ultimate goal of a Superbowl win...but who here on these message boards will go all out for someone that they don't trust? Why would we expect the Burgundy and Gold to do the same?

*Sigh*, For Coach Gibbs and the team, I truly hope this decision works out as Joe hopes it does, for he has made a great sacrifice for the sake of victory, and that's credibility. Because if it doesn't work, he will have sacrificed that measure of credibility for nothing, and he may end up losing the locker room as a result...

Good luck Joe, you're gonna need it.

You got one thing right, when you said Ramsey may have difficulty seeing the field. As for the players, they have been in camp, they know who is the better qb, you gain their respect when you play the best man.

the thing with gibbs doing ramsey wrong has got to go. gibbs is trying to do the redskins right.

the head coach benched the guy he thought would play the best, before he played... he played, and obviously didn't do something right. big deal. i still get weak on the stomach thinking about brunells play last year. but gibbs has his reason(s) for what he did. it was clearly evident to me as i watched sunday, that ramsey just doesn't have what it takes to lead gibbs' team. everyone says what joe did is 'wrong'. truth is, nobody knows what gibbs saw but gibbs and the rest of the team.

i stand behind whomever is on the field at this point in the season. it's too early to tell. but i will say this, as far as i'm concerned, joe gibbs can lie to any other player he wants, as long as he feels he's helping the redskins.

ps- if brunell does struggle, i won't be chanting 'ramsey, ramsey'. I'll be chanting 'campell, campell'.

hailskins666 wrote:the thing with gibbs doing ramsey wrong has got to go. gibbs is trying to do the redskins right.

the head coach benched the guy he thought would play the best, before he played... he played, and obviously didn't do something right. big deal. i still get weak on the stomach thinking about brunells play last year. but gibbs has his reason(s) for what he did. it was clearly evident to me as i watched sunday, that ramsey just doesn't have what it takes to lead gibbs' team. everyone says what joe did is 'wrong'. truth is, nobody knows what gibbs saw but gibbs and the rest of the team.

i stand behind whomever is on the field at this point in the season. it's too early to tell. but i will say this, as far as I'm concerned, Joe Gibbs can lie to any other player he wants, as long as he feels he's helping the redskins.

ps- if brunell does struggle, i won't be chanting 'ramsey, ramsey'. I'll be chanting 'campell, campell'.

Come on now I have to agree but I was disappointed after Gibbs stood up there on Redskin.comTV and lied to us. just disappointed.

Gibbs has all the fims so.......

hailskins666 wrote:ps- if brunell does struggle, i won't be chanting 'ramsey, ramsey'. I'll be chanting 'campell, campell'.

Good thing it's an away game, then, huh? That way he wouldn't have to put up with those fans upset by Gibbs' decision, who will most likely boo him should he not complete one pass.

Now that I think of it, this gives Mark the best opportunity to win over the DC faithful, without the pressure of playing at home in front of the sometimes fickle fans.

LetsRoll. I am a big Gibbs fan, but I totally agree with your e-mail. When you compare how Gibbs treated Brunell last year and how he treated Ramsey this year it is hard to believe some of the things that Gibbs is saying. I have no doubt that Gibbs is trying to make the best decision for the team.....but it is hard to look at the way he has treated Ramsey and conclude that he gave him the same benefit of the doubt.

And from the view of an old high school wrestler who never played football.... I would not care if they put donald duck in the QB position, if I thought he could lead the Skins to victory. I think Brunell shows the least promise of any QB that I have seen play for the skins (except maybe the guys that Spurrier had playing).


Very nervous....I think we have the making of a very good team this year...defense, running, offensive line....I think we will need to go down field...and I have seen nothing to suggest that Brunell can do that. If he can....if he looks good....then I will be very happy. However there seems to be something strange going on in the Gibbs, Brunell, Ramsey triagle...just does not add up...and has hurt my confidence in Gibbs a little....it will come back quickly if Brunell proves me wrong.....But will start to move me in the 2nd Gibbs doubters camp if Brunell continues to stink....70 yards

The only character(s) I question, are some of our fans right now.

I, like many on this site, am very reluctant to defer to authority figures as a matter of habit, I think questioning the decisions of those in charge is both wise and necessary.
Where I take umbrage is in the passing of judgement. Not in the sense that you don't have the right to pass judgement, feel free. My complaint is that it is premature by at least a week.
Even if Gibbs made a bad decision, we won't know that until Sept. 20 at the earliest. Brunell's stats from last season and the overall downward trend in his stats since 2002 are legitimate fodder in this discussion. But because you can site them doesn't give you some special clarity.
If Brunell stinks it up in Dallas, then you can pass judgement and type told ya to your heart's content.
But for god's sake people, be REDSKINS fans for at least another week. You're jumping off the ship and we've barely set sail.

Redskins1974 wrote:The only character(s) I question, are some of our fans right now.

should we not question? we're not allowed to complain? isn't that part of the fun? you'll notice that i am one of the anti-brunell posters on this board. however, that won't stop me from cheering when he scores, and yelling at him through the TV (which really freaks the dog out) when he screws up. i don't think that makes me any less of a fan than you, simply because i don't agree with a gibbs decision.

joebagadonuts showed that his anti-Brunell stance is starting to crack when he wrote:...however, that won't stop me from cheering when he scores...

I knew you'd start to come around sooner or later, joebagadonuts. When you're ready to take your rightful place under the "Tailgate for #8" tent, it will be waiting for you.

- REDEEMEDSKIN

yeah, save my seat. if i'm not there on time, go ahead start without me.

and my anti-brunell stance does indeed crack under the awesome weight of my redskins heart. if george bush played qb for the skins, i'd root for them (i can't believe i just wrote that).

First, let me say that I have never been a Ramsey supporter, but then neither am I a Ramsey hater. He has had good and bad games. I applaud the good and wish for the bad not to happen. However, I do take exception to Gibbs decision. Not from a play standpoint but from an ethical standpoint. True, Ramsey did not have a great first quarter, but he did have some good plays and seemed to be getting stronger and more comfortable as the game went along. I have read other posts, mostly in the newspaper site, that suggests that Brunell had a great game. ????? All I saw was more of the same. Brunell did not have a great game or preseason as suggested by others! In the preseason, he played against guys that are mostly last stringers and guys that were never going to be in the NFL.

While Gibbs made a decision that many will disagree with and many others will agree with. I for one, now wonder if Gibbs really has been passed by and I wonder how this will affect the team. The many reported "no comments" indicates to me that there is a lack of support, or at least a lack of understanding, within the team for the decision. Less than 2 quarters is not defined as a chance to prove ones self. Someone suggested that Gibbs is here to win now. Sorry, I don't see that happening.

I won't wonder that Ramsey would request...demand a trade. No matter what happens now, Ramsey is done in Washington. Proof provided by Gibbs.

I wonder if Gibbs would bench Michael Vicks for Brunell. Vicks had a far worse game that Ramsey last night. By the way, I am certainly glad that Atlanta won!!!!!

You are questioning his character because he benched a quarterback who has yet to win games consistently???

It is this type of attitude that makes some "fans" leave the game in the 4th quarter after giving up.

It is this type of attitude that makes "fans" declare Gibbs a moron, and chuck the season down the toilet for drafting a Quarterback and cornerback in the 1st round, over Mike Williams.

It is this type of fan that criticized Gibbs last year for not doing what he did now...making a decision early enough not to sacrifice precious games.

It is this type of fan that will say I told you so if Brunnell fails, but will praise Gibbs if we win.

It is this type of fan that just gets on the nerves of everyone who follows the Redskins!!!

We won a game. Established our running game, have the #2 defense, and finally are on our way to making FedEx an intimidating place to play, yet all you "fans" can do is declare the season a wash, and take target practice at Gibbs' bust in Canton.

Have an opinion, but spare us all the violin playing. All is not lost. Whether it was 9-7 or 30-7 we are 1-0.

Lets focus on Dallas and winning this year.

aswas71788 wrote:First, let me say that I have never been a Ramsey supporter, but then neither am I a Ramsey hater. He has had good and bad games. I applaud the good and wish for the bad not to happen. However, I do take exception to Gibbs decision. Not from a play standpoint but from an ethical standpoint. True, Ramsey did not have a great first quarter, but he did have some good plays and seemed to be getting stronger and more comfortable as the game went along. I have read other posts, mostly in the newspaper site, that suggests that Brunell had a great game. ????? All I saw was more of the same. Brunell did not have a great game or preseason as suggested by others! He playerd against guys that are mostly not in the NFL anymore and guys that were never going to be in the NFL.

While Gibbs made a decision that many will disagree with and many others will agree with. I for one, now wonder if Gibbs really has been passed by and I wonder how this will affect the team. The many reported "no comments" indicates to me that there is a lack of support, or at least a lack of understanding, within the team for the decision. Less than 2 quarters is not defined as a chance to prove ones self. Someone suggested that Gibbs is here to win now. Sorry, I don't see that happening.

I won't wonder that Ramsey would request...demand a trade. No matter what happens now, Ramsey is done in Washington. Proof provided by Gibbs.

I wonder if Gibbs would bench Michael Vicks for Brunell. Vicks had a far worse game that Ramsey last night. By the way, I am certainly glad that Atlanta won!!!!!

Vick had a worse game than Ramsey??? Who Marcus Vick?? Cause what I saw was Vick doing what he does best out there....showing off his cannon, dazzling runs, and WINNING.

I think Gibbs would take Vick over Brunnell or Ramsey. He may not complete 63 percent of his balls, but he wins. He manages the game and makes up for his errors with his ability to make plays. Vick is no Pat Ramsey and vice versa.

You are questioning his character because he benched a quarterback who has yet to win games consistently???

It is this type of attitude that makes some "fans" leave the game in the 4th quarter after giving up.

It is this type of attitude that makes "fans" declare Gibbs a moron, and chuck the season down the toilet for drafting a Quarterback and cornerback in the 1st round, over Mike Williams.

It is this type of fan that criticized Gibbs last year for not doing what he did now...making a decision early enough not to sacrifice precious games.

It is this type of fan that will say I told you so if Brunnell fails, but will praise Gibbs if we win.

It is this type of fan that just gets on the nerves of everyone who follows the Redskins!!!

We won a game. Established our running game, have the #2 defense, and finally are on our way to making FedEx an intimidating place to play, yet all you "fans" can do is declare the season a wash, and take target practice at Gibbs' bust in Canton.

Have an opinion, but spare us all the violin playing. All is not lost. Whether it was 9-7 or 30-7 we are 1-0.

Lets focus on Dallas and winning this year.

I agree COMPLETELY.

One Fan to Another!

If being a "fan" means that you blindly follow the leader....then I have a problem. But, unless you are in your 70's, I have been a fan longer. I have seem most of the 70 greatest Redskins play. I remember when the Redskins total offense was Billy Barnes, Dickie James, Eddie LaBaron and the "3 yards and a cloud of dust" offense. The game play was run, run, pass and punt, most of the time. I was there for the first RFK stadium game. I was at Griffith Stadium. I was a loyal fan then and am now. I have a right to disagree. There is a difference between disagreeing and bad mouthing. I disagree with Gibbs decision.

And no, I would't take Ramsey or Brunnel over Vicks. But Vicks also fumbled a few times. That doesn't make him a bad quarterback.

I voted to give Gibbs my ATM card and PIN number, does that seem foolish?

joebagadonuts wrote:

Redskins1974 wrote:The only character(s) I question, are some of our fans right now.

should we not question? we're not allowed to complain? isn't that part of the fun? you'll notice that i am one of the anti-brunell posters on this board. however, that won't stop me from cheering when he scores, and yelling at him through the TV (which really freaks the dog out) when he screws up. i don't think that makes me any less of a fan than you, simply because i don't agree with a gibbs decision.

...and, did I direct it at you? Nope. I said some of our fans, I think are being whiney right now and in general of late (and prior to this decision). Booing Ramsey during preseason games. Booing Ramsey in the 1st Q on Sunday and now look - all the sudden, some are making him sound like the return of christ, like he's Payton Manning or something. That's what I have a problem with, not disagreeing with Gibbs. It's ok to disagree, but to disrepect is another thing.

aswas71788 wrote:One Fan to Another!

If being a "fan" means that you blindly follow the leader....then I have a problem. But, unless you are in your 70's, I have been a fan longer. I have seem most of the 70 greatest Redskins play. I remember when the Redskins total offense was Billy Barnes, Dickie James, Eddie LaBaron and the "3 yards and a cloud of dust" offense. The game play was run, run, pass and punt, most of the time. I was there for the first RFK stadium game. I was at Griffith Stadium. I was a loyal fan then and am now. I have a right to disagree. There is a difference between disagreeing and bad mouthing. I disagree with Gibbs decision.

Okay...so if you have been a 'true fan' this long, you will know that you can't say one way or another how this will play out. If you have truly been a fan that long you will understand that Theisman had a passer rating in the 50's before he was injured by Lawrence Taylor, yet the team still finished 10-6.

My complaint is not with people who disagree, but those who disagree and then proclaim that the Skins will have a losing season blah blah blah.

It doesn't matter how old you are or how long you have been a fan. No I am not in my 70's but I have been watching the Skins since the early 80's (sorry I can't change how old I am). I will say, each Skins QB has taken heat.

People ran Brad Johnson out of town with the same argument, he can't throw the ball downfield...wah wah wah...and what does he do, win a Superbowl.

All I am saying is don't jump off the boat just yet. It is not even Wednesday for goodness sake.

You have a point. If the Redskins go 1 - 16, Gibbs will be vilified. If they go 16 - 0 he will be put up for saint status, move over God. Whichever happens, I will still be a Redskins fan. We are fans, we really have no say in the matter but our opinions. I would trade Ramsey, Brunell, my oldest child and your oldest child for Vicks (LOL).

My only problem with this situation is that Gibbs knew all along who he wanted in there but, for whatever reason, did not do it. To me it kinda seems like he was just waiting for a reason to pull this move. Like its been said many times before why didnt he just do it earlier in the pre-season becuase it clearly what he wanted to do all along. From that standpoint I can see how some question the ethics/character of this move and some players might feel the same way thus possibly causing problems in the locker room. Anyway I hope Brunell does great and shuts the door on this case if he plays well he will end any debate there was or will be. I trust Gibbs is doing whats best for the team and I hope he will be proven correct.

Personally, if Ramsey had taken better care of the ball I think he would still be our starting QB. Gibbs hates turnovers. Brunell just hasn't coughed it up anywhere near as much and I think Brunell reads the field better. Gibbs might have wanted Brunell in there but I truly think that he made the decision that in his heart he feels is right for the club right now.

Coach Gibbs is the greatest Redskins coach ever...and thus in my mind the greatest coach of all time. I'm cheering for whoever is wearing the burgundy and gold! (I do, however, reserve the right to curse and yell in the privacy of my own home, whenever they mess up...it helps...)

I think many of you are missing the point. Gibbs job is to make sure the Skins win. It is totally his decision who he plays. If he wants to switch QB's every play...because he thinks that will help us win. That is his perogative. I don't think Brunell was the right choice, but I have no idea what I am talking about.

I am concerned that his decision seemed out of character with Joe Gibbs. He should not have stated over and over again that "he is our guy" and then pulled him after an injury. Ramsey had less than a quarter to play. GIBBS DID NOT GIVE RAMSEY A CHANCE. I support him putting whoever he wants in as QB. However knowing what I know (which is limited to the press) he did not seem to treat Ramsey consistently:

Brunell is our guy last year: Stick to him through 3/4 of season where he absolutely stunk.

Ramsey is our guy this year: drops him after temporary injury after less than a quarter

Juat not what I expect from Gibbs. Which makes me worried that something is wrong. I am a huge Gibbs fan and a huge skins fan and can not wait until Monday night. My two young daughters both know "hail to the Redskins. If you say that I am not a fan for being concerned...then we must disagree on what a fan is.

In response to the question posed at the head of the thread:

I -trust- Gibbs.

I -disagree- with Gibbs.

I -hope- Joe Gibbs proves me wrong.