The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

After watching the press conference and listening to Gibbs's explanation in his own words, I have changed my mind. Ramsey should sit.

Two words changed my mind. When reclling the development of Mark Rypien, Gibbs mentioned at at one point he felt like he wasn't "getting through" to Ryp about turning the ball over, so he benched him. If Coach feels like his message is not "getting through" to Ramsey, then Ramsey should sit. Even if he is the best quarterback we have at the moment. Even if we all have zero confidence Brunell's physical ability.

I am 100% convinced that Ramsey would still be starting if he understood Coach's lectures about the importance of not turning the ball over and not holding the ball too long. Even if it were three and out every time. Even if he lost every game.

Gibbs believes Ramsey is not listening.

The problem during all of the years of mediocrity during the Turner and Spurrier years is that these coaches let talented players play through mental lapses and sloppiness.

I am convinced that if we are going to return to greatness, the first step is to get mentally focused. The Coach has to have confidence that the team's leader is mentally focused, disciplined, and listening to instructions. If the most talented player is not willing to do that, he should be benched in favor of less talented player who is mentally in the game.

The bottom line is that this team is going nowhere if the coach believes he is not "getting through" to his starting quarterback.

I tend not to post but visit the site almost daily.

This is easily the most insightful opinion I have read here--I think you nailed it completely. It goes beyond their stats and who has more talent--it's about listening to direction and becoming an extension of the coaching staff.

Gibbs did not become second-rate overnight, despite what many folks who post here regularly seem to think. He needs his players to listen, and he clearly realizes Ramsey's physical strengths are likely superior to Brunell's at this point in their careers. But none of that matters when the younger talent demonstrates a proclivity for handing the ball to the other team. The trend is clear.

Maybe this is a short-term message, or maybe Ramsey becomes unsalvageable--the point is that Gibbs felt he had to do it.

Who do we think we are? That should be more than enough for everyone, no matter how it turns out. Hindsight will always be 20-20.

Root for your team--Brunell, Ramsey, Campbell...Gibbs.

Zdevils wrote:I tend not to post but visit the site almost daily.

This is easily the most insightful opinion I have read here--I think you nailed it completely. It goes beyond their stats and who has more talent--it's about listening to direction and becoming an extension of the coaching staff.

Gibbs did not become second-rate overnight, despite what many folks who post here regularly seem to think. He needs his players to listen, and he clearly realizes Ramsey's physical strengths are likely superior to Brunell's at this point in their careers. But none of that matters when the younger talent demonstrates a proclivity for handing the ball to the other team. The trend is clear.

Maybe this is a short-term message, or maybe Ramsey becomes unsalvageable--the point is that Gibbs felt he had to do it.

Who do we think we are? That should be more than enough for everyone, no matter how it turns out. Hindsight will always be 20-20.

Root for your team--Brunell, Ramsey, Campbell...Gibbs.

Thank You

This is the best first post I have ever seen.

I have been here less then 6 months but still, this is the best first post I have seen.

If Ramsey wants to get traded because he did not get his way, then he can cry his way all the way to whatever second string position he ends up at.

Zdevils wrote:I tend not to post but visit the site almost daily.

This is easily the most insightful opinion I have read here--I think you nailed it completely. It goes beyond their stats and who has more talent--it's about listening to direction and becoming an extension of the coaching staff.

Gibbs did not become second-rate overnight, despite what many folks who post here regularly seem to think. He needs his players to listen, and he clearly realizes Ramsey's physical strengths are likely superior to Brunell's at this point in their careers. But none of that matters when the younger talent demonstrates a proclivity for handing the ball to the other team. The trend is clear.

Maybe this is a short-term message, or maybe Ramsey becomes unsalvageable--the point is that Gibbs felt he had to do it.

Who do we think we are? That should be more than enough for everyone, no matter how it turns out. Hindsight will always be 20-20.

Root for your team--Brunell, Ramsey, Campbell...Gibbs.

Great 1st post and welcome to the site.

Snout, I agree with you also. I enjoyed reading both posts. Im glad I got in here before the bad people come in here and corrupt it.

Good Stuff Snout & Zdevils... you guys sound as if you'll fit right in... Gibbs always has and always will be about discipline first... if you're not disciplined he's not going to put up with it...

Welcome to the board...

All very good points and i agree with them it seems coach Gibbs perfers a 3-and-out and winning the battle of field position then having turnovers (and with that defense can you blame him). Seems like Ramsey has not grasped this concept yet. I admire the fact that Ramsey wants to make plays but that is not what he is asked to do all the time. All Gibbs wants him to do is protect the football by making good decisions.

Even last year when Brunell was playing terribly, but protected the football, Gibbs always had prais for him eventhough his stats on paper were awful. this was also eveident this Sunday where Brunells numbers were worse that PRams but that is not a big deal to coach Gibbs. The numbers he was looking at was 3-0 in favor of Ramsey (that is turnovers). The bottom line was stated in the orginal post Ramsey just has not bought into what Gibbs is trying to do at the moment and hopefully he eventually will learn to do it because it will only help him in his career.

Snout wrote:Gibbs believes Ramsey is not listening.

I also believe that Ramsey was not listening.

I hear Ramsey and Gibbs had a meeting yesterday to talk about the move at QB next Monday.

If this action does not geth through to Patrick, he might be deaf. I love the guy. I want him to succeed. He will succeed. But come on! This game against Da Bears could have and should have been won comfortably with fewer mistakes.

As far as Brunell is concerned, I do not feel that he played better than Ramsey. He threw a BAD interception as well. We were lucky on that one.

If Joe says that this is the best way forward next Monday, I support it. I will always support my players on the field 100%.

Welcome to the board snout and Zdevils! Good posts.

Snout wrote:After watching the press conference and listening to Gibbs's explanation in his own words, I have changed my mind. Ramsey should sit.

Two words changed my mind. When reclling the development of Mark Rypien, Gibbs mentioned at at one point he felt like he wasn't "getting through" to Ryp about turning the ball over, so he benched him. If Coach feels like his message is not "getting through" to Ramsey, then Ramsey should sit. Even if he is the best quarterback we have at the moment. Even if we all have zero confidence Brunell's physical ability.

I am 100% convinced that Ramsey would still be starting if he understood Coach's lectures about the importance of not turning the ball over and not holding the ball too long. Even if it were three and out every time. Even if he lost every game.

Gibbs believes Ramsey is not listening.

The problem during all of the years of mediocrity during the Turner and Spurrier years is that these coaches let talented players play through mental lapses and sloppiness.

I am convinced that if we are going to return to greatness, the first step is to get mentally focused. The Coach has to have confidence that the team's leader is mentally focused, disciplined, and listening to instructions. If the most talented player is not willing to do that, he should be benched in favor of less talented player who is mentally in the game.

The bottom line is that this team is going nowhere if the coach believes he is not "getting through" to his starting quarterback.

Could not have said it better myself. No, really, I admit, I could not have put it any better.

Welcome to the Board. Great posts all around.

I dont agree. My spin is Ramsey is listening and $42 million is speaking.

Snout and Zdevils - welcome to the board! Great, insightful posts. I definitely agree.

Welcome....great post and also agree

Ok....I would be cool with Ramsey being benched to teach him a lesson. No problem there. Problem is Gibbs will have a tough time with the media and the fans if by the third week he switched back. People will not stop talking about how he can't make up his mind.

That is why I do not think this is to teach Ramsey anything except he will not be the Redskins starting Quarterback.

Now here is why I am ok with this after being real ticked off last night (as you can see from all my posts). First, at least Gibbs learned from last year in how he waited to take out the QB when things were not going right in his mind. This year he acted immediately instead of prolonging things. Second, once and for all we will see if Brunell can still QB. If he can't and Ramsey is gone at least we will focus on our biggest missing piece to this puzzle. Campbell needs time and mentoring and Brunell will do that with him but hopefully they will do what the cowpukes did and get a solid experienced quarterback. Oh geez did I just commend the cowpukes?

I still feel the move is to rekindle the old days for Gibbs when he brings in the veteran and also to prove he was right about the guy. It just seemed he was looking for that slight situation that will allow him to remove Ramsey and that close line and sore neck enabled him to do that.

Boy what a great post! It's hard not to be disheartened by this kind of turmoil so early in the season, and I certainly understand how Ramsey would feel like he was given his fair shot, but the bottom line is Joe knows the play going in, he knows what he expects, and he doesn't feel Ramsey is getting it... Gibbs wants to win as bad as we want him to win, so I have faith that he truly thinks this is best for the team regardless of how Ramsey or the media are taking it...

insightful post -- however, it appears as if your assumption is that ramsey is 'the guy', and gibbs is just teaching him a lesson. while i have no proof, i don't think that is the case. i think brunell is 'the guy' in joe's mind. i don't believe that there is any long term plan for patrick ramsey in joe's mind.

when joe and ramsey sat down yesterday, i highly doubt joe told him that he would start again someday, but he just needed to sit and learn a bit more restraint, and until that happens, brunell is going to start. i don't think that's how the conversation went.

this differs from the rypien sitaution that everyone keeps referring to, because i think ryp was always intended to be the guy. i don't believe that's the case here. it seems to me that joe's plan is to have brunell start for the next couple of years, and then give way to campbell.

i don't believe that we'll see ramsey play quarterback for the redskins again, barring injury.

ramsey is not being "taught a lesson". that is an ignorant statement. being "taught" implies that you have the opportunity to improve and be tested again. ramsey has been benched. gibbs is NOT going to switch back to him barring any total catastrophy (if brunell gets injured, or finds a way to stink it up again as badly as he did last year. in which case, gibbs would probably just go ahead and get campbell some experience anyway).

ramsey is not being "taught" anything. he is being disposed of. what QB in the league could possibly play under the circumstances "OK, you played well enough last year to earn the starting job. But if you throw ONE interception, you are back on the bench!". that is madness. or did we all forget that that's WHY ramsey was appointed the starter? HE PLAYED WELL LAST YEAR, once he became the starter. HE ALSO PLAYED WELL IN 2003. or did we conviently forget that, too? what's more important, his real game experience in 2003 and starting experience in 2004, or 4 MEANINGLESS preseason games and ONE INTERCEPTION in the 1st real game of 2005?

Zdevils wrote:I tend not to post but visit the site almost daily.

This is easily the most insightful opinion I have read here--I think you nailed it completely. It goes beyond their stats and who has more talent--it's about listening to direction and becoming an extension of the coaching staff.

Gibbs did not become second-rate overnight, despite what many folks who post here regularly seem to think. He needs his players to listen, and he clearly realizes Ramsey's physical strengths are likely superior to Brunell's at this point in their careers. But none of that matters when the younger talent demonstrates a proclivity for handing the ball to the other team. The trend is clear.

Maybe this is a short-term message, or maybe Ramsey becomes unsalvageable--the point is that Gibbs felt he had to do it.

Who do we think we are? That should be more than enough for everyone, no matter how it turns out. Hindsight will always be 20-20.

Root for your team--Brunell, Ramsey, Campbell...Gibbs.

Does he get a prize for that post???? You got it all right!

why is everybody judging ramsey using preseason games as support?

they are meaningless. on top of that...Ramsey went against first team players...not to mention that they were good defenses for the most part.



I guess I will have to support Brunnel come game time, but Ramsey got shafted after playing pretty good last season. In my eyes he didnt show anything that would warrant him getting benched. He was startign to pick it up in the 2nd quarter.


he should have been given at least 3 games to prove himself.

I agree with joebagadonuts, Ramsey is not being taught a lesson here. Gibbs doesn't like Ramsey it couldn't be clearer. Last year he waited over half of the season to give him a chance, even with Brunnell playing really bad. This year it took only 15 minutes to bench him.

HaiL,

this differs from the rypien sitaution that everyone keeps referring to, because i think ryp was always intended to be the guy

Rypien was not "the guy". He was the backup to Jay Schoeder and Doug Williams during the SB 22 season, and he was backup to Williams when the Redsksins traded Schroeder a few months later.

Stan Humphries was expected to be the star QB after Williams. With Rypien, it seemed like he was always being hit and stripped of the ball. Gibbs wanted him to have a better sense of where the rush was coming from, and to protect the ball if he needed to take a sack.

Rypien improved in 1990, but still was not the favored guy.

After the 1990 season, Gibbs told Humphries to prepare to start in 1991. I've said this before: Rypien studied and trained hard during the offseason, while Humphries ate. (Rypien led the team to SB 26, and Humphries never played a down.)

By the way, brillian first post.

I agree with joebagadonuts, Ramsey is not being taught a lesson here. Gibbs doesn't like Ramsey it couldn't be clearer. Last year he waited over half of the season to give him a chance, even with Brunnell playing really bad. This year it took only 15 minutes to bench him.

Not to mention we overpaid for Campbell b/c Ramsey was in the last year of his contract. The writing was on the wall for anyone who cared to see. I didn't care to see it b/c I believed Gibbs' line of "i alwasy take a quality QB when they are available". Now after this, I've put 2 and 2 together and it my friends definitelt equals 4. If Gibbs wasn't going to give him a chance he should've traded him before last year. Teams were willing to give up alot for him after watching what he did in 2003 before getting hurt. Now, his value is lower.

It doesn't seem to matter if it is first team defenses or 7 on 7 drills. Ramsey makes horrible decisions and throws picks. Nothing has changed. I don't buy the young quarterback excuse either. Although his starts have been limited (20 or so) he is no longer a rookie. Training camps, OTA's, pre-season games, 20+ starts, come on, it is time for him to see the field. I have never, NEVER, seen him look off a defensive back. Gibb's is right, our best chance of winning lies elsewhere.

ComebackSkins wrote:why is everybody judging ramsey using preseason games as support?

they are meaningless. on top of that...Ramsey went against first team players...not to mention that they were good defenses for the most part.



I guess I will have to support Brunnel come game time, but Ramsey got shafted after playing pretty good last season. In my eyes he didnt show anything that would warrant him getting benched. He was startign to pick it up in the 2nd quarter..he should have been given at least 3 games to prove himself

I understand your point, and I feel for Ramsey (I think he was starting to pick it up as well), but the fact is, those games as well as practice, do count when it comes to winning or solidifying a job on the team... I feel Joe's frustration that Patrick has never improved in the areas Joe has stressed... If it were just a matter of Patrick having a few bad series after making great decisions in practices and scrimmages, then Joe would never have made the switch. Apparently that's not the case...

gregory smith wrote:It doesn't seem to matter if it is first team defenses or 7 on 7 drills. Ramsey makes horrible decisions and throws picks. Nothing has changed. I don't buy the young quarterback excuse either. Although his starts have been limited (20 or so) he is no longer a rookie. Training camps, OTA's, pre-season games, 20+ starts, come on, it is time for him to see the field. I have never, NEVER, seen him look off a defensive back. Gibb's is right, our best chance of winning lies elsewhere.

How many picks do you tollerate in a season? How many is too many? In 3 season and 1 game Ramsey has thrown a total of 29 picks. The most he has thrown in one season is 11! Peyton Manning threw 28 in his first season and a total of 58 in his first three seasons. He threw 43 in his first 32 games (14 more than Ramsey!!!) Ramsey doesn't throw a lot of INTs!!! McNabb threw 32 in his first three seasons. Aikman threw 46. Do I nead to go further. Young QBs on poor teams throw a lot of INTs and Ramsey has thrown much less than the norm!

Throw brunell in there...and 2 things could happen...
He could either Win for us or Lose for us....


I have a feeling that if he starts Losing, most of y'all are going to jump back on the ramsey bandwagon.....But ramsey doesn't want to wait that long..he wants to play right now...He didn't come to the NFL to be a back-up.

But where will ramsey go?

The reason I'd go with Brunell is evident on the quick WR screen that the Skins run a few times per game. Both deliver it quickly, but Ramsey tends to throw it just behind the receiver at helmet level, and Brunell puts it right on the receiver's lead shoulder. They run the play so the speediness of Moss & Patten can be utilized. With Ramsey's pass, I think they lose almost a second to get moving. And it sure matters.

If the Skins are to emulate the Ravens SB team (Great defense, and running game) then I'll take the QB least likely to make mistakes. Hence Dilfer playing over Banks for Baltimore as that season wore on. Just my 2cents!