The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

This business about the poor neighborhoods vs the affluent ones is not even an issue, in my opinion. Focusing on issues like that, right now, will not solve what went wrong with the response to Hurricane Katrina. While there is some kind of racial issues that should be addressed without any relevance to Katrina, there are other core issues that must be resolved before we can figure out what was wrong with the Hurricane response at any level, State, Local, or Federal. But, I do have one question.

In 2003, President Bush created the United States Department of Homeland Security, or DHS. The DHS primary and sole mission is to "...protect the United States of America against Terrorism, terrorists, and the instruments of terror". With that in mind, my question is why is the Department of Homeland Security such a key player in the Hurricane Relief operation.

To get to the root of whatever is wrong with the response, or lack of, to Hurricane Katrina. one must first go back to the creation of the Department of Homeland Security and begin their investigation there. Why was FEMA placed under the umbrella of DHS? Why is DHS, whose sole responsibility is to protect the United States against Terrorism, the lead agency in the relief effort? Why was Secretary Chertoff accompanying Bush, and walking with hime side by side during his recent visits to the affected area? Isn't Chertoff responsible for protecting us from Terrorism? His job description does not, or should not, include responses to natural disasters.

To figure out why there is such a problem with the entire post-Katrina response, we must first figure out why the creation of the Dept. of Homeland Security took shape as it stands today. Why was FEMA placed into DHS? Why was there not a seperate "FEMA" type of agency independant of the Dept. of Homeland Security?

We will never fix what went wrong with the Katrina response until we figure out the answers to those questions and many other questions about why the Dept. of Homeland Security is structured the way it is at the moment. IMO, there needs to be a drastic overhaul of an Agency that is effectively in it's own embryonic stages. It's really quite sad when an Agency that was created, and that being the biggest overhaul of the Federal Government since World War II, to prevent this Country from Terrorism already needs a drastic overhaul.

That issue must be addressed to figure out what went wrong, if anything went wrong at all, with the Local, State, or Federal responses to Hurricane Katrina.

Just my

I think if you read what Chris posted it explains a lot. The majority of Americans assume that the second the hurricane came through it broke the levy. It did NOT. And in that link the man also says help arrived quickly and more and more kept showing up.

JPFair wrote:This business about the poor neighborhoods vs the affluent ones is not even an issue, in my opinion. Focusing on issues like that, right now, will not solve what went wrong with the response to Hurricane Katrina. While there is some kind of racial issues that should be addressed without any relevance to Katrina, there are other core issues that must be resolved before we can figure out what was wrong with the Hurricane response at any level, State, Local, or Federal. But, I do have one question.

In 2003, President Bush created the United States Department of Homeland Security, or DHS. The DHS primary and sole mission is to "...protect the United States of America against Terrorism, terrorists, and the instruments of terror". With that in mind, my question is why is the Department of Homeland Security such a key player in the Hurricane Relief operation.

To get to the root of whatever is wrong with the response, or lack of, to Hurricane Katrina. one must first go back to the creation of the Department of Homeland Security and begin their investigation there. Why was FEMA placed under the umbrella of DHS? Why is DHS, whose sole responsibility is to protect the United States against Terrorism, the lead agency in the relief effort? Why was Secretary Chertoff accompanying Bush, and walking with hime side by side during his recent visits to the affected area? Isn't Chertoff responsible for protecting us from Terrorism? His job description does not, or should not, include responses to natural disasters.

To figure out why there is such a problem with the entire post-Katrina response, we must first figure out why the creation of the Dept. of Homeland Security took shape as it stands today. Why was FEMA placed into DHS? Why was there not a seperate "FEMA" type of agency independant of the Dept. of Homeland Security?

We will never fix what went wrong with the Katrina response until we figure out the answers to those questions and many other questions about why the Dept. of Homeland Security is structured the way it is at the moment. IMO, there needs to be a drastic overhaul of an Agency that is effectively in it's own embryonic stages. It's really quite sad when an Agency that was created, and that being the biggest overhaul of the Federal Government since World War II, to prevent this Country from Terrorism already needs a drastic overhaul.

That issue must be addressed to figure out what went wrong, if anything went wrong at all, with the Local, State, or Federal responses to Hurricane Katrina.

Just my

JP,

Here is as simple a response as I can make it. Responding to natural disasters is no more a local responsibility than is responding to a terrorist attack. They are both primarily federal responsibilities of the same order. That is why they are both under Homeland Security.

This nonsense about the Mayor's responsibily is total garbage. My brother's a Mayor. Mayors have diddly in terms of power and barely control cities when there's no crisis. The same goes for Governors. Neither had the faintest chance against Katrina without massive Federal help, which was supposed to be there.

They have no major no responsibilities other than to call for the feds and then apply their inadequate assets until the feds get there and take over the operation. Both did that by the book.

We think otherwise today purely because of the administration's buck-passing damage control efforts, which are admittedly awesome. Rove has America believing local governments are supposed to be the first line of defense and that the abandoned in New Orleans were a bunch of looting rapists. Both are total BS.

If you were the Mayor where would you nave spent the night of the Hurricane??

C'mon, now. It isn't going to help anybody displaced or killed by the storm by having someone to blame for it.
At this point, who really cares who woulda, coulda, shoulda ? It happened, and we have to deal with that. This is for later, when there's nothing more to be done to help. All this energy is being used to reinforce already-formed opinions on certain elected officials. It's selfish and insipid. Spend that 15 minutes
thinking on how you can help those who need it right now. I did. I wound up sending about half of my oldest daughter's college fund to the Red Cross in her name.
Why all this drama right now ? It's not helping anybody.

DEHog wrote:If you were the Mayor where would you nave spent the night of the Hurricane??

To the north of New Orleans near an air field that could serve as a command post. I would pick a location from which I could copter back to the city and would not likely lose contact with the feds. Further, I would assume, as a worse case scenario, that my ability to respond would have been severely compromised and the city would be almost totally dependent on Homeland Security-- my chief function now becoming the providing of information to FEMA.

I think my point is going unheard. I'm suggesting that, no matter who should take the lead role, local, state, or Federal, why did it have to be the Dept. of Homeland Security? The Dept. of Homeland Security is an Agency who's sole mission is to protect the United States against Terrorism. It was created after 9/11 in an attempt to better prepare the United States to fight terrorists. It was not created to provide a Federal response to a natural disaster. For example, if a person was driving drunk and plowed into a bus stop full of people, you don't call the Dept. of Agriculture to co-ordinate the response. Calling upon the Dept. of Homeland Security in response to Hurricane Katrina is akin to calling the FBI in response to a flu epidemic. Hurricane Katrina was never an act of terrorism nor did it possess any instruments of terror.

When the Dept. of Homeland Security was created, it was created to fight the war on Terror. Simply put, the Dept. of Homeland Security was structured in such a way that, once a natural disaster did hit, that the same problems that prompted the creation of DHS (i.e. lack of communication between Local, State, and Federal Law Enforcement and other agencies) were the very problems that created the chaos in response to Hurricane Katrina.

Forget about blaming anyone, at any level, but to get to what went wrong, if anything went wrong, then there needs to be an investigation as to why the Dept. of Homeland Security was called on to respond to a natural disaster when it's sole focus is the prevention of terrorism. Just as we needed an agency dedicated solely to preventing terrorism, then perhaps we need an agency dedicated solely to protecting against, and responding to, natural disaters. We thought we had that in FEMA. But, President Bush re-assigned FEMA to work under the auspices of the Dept. of Homeland Security, without realizing that a naturdal disaster such as Hurricane Katrina would require as big a response, if not bigger, than a terrorist attack.

I'm not saying that the Federal Govt. should take the lead role, nor am I saying that it should be handled at the local level, but whoever handles such a response, should be trained specifically to deal with a natural disaster. When FEMA was placed into the Dept. of Homeland Security, millions of dollars of funding was taken from natural disaster efforts and placed into terrorism prevention. Justification for that is not up for debate, but the need for a Federal Agency, independant of the Dept. of Homeland Security, is IMO now become apparent.

Let me explain: When you break your leg, you don't go to the bank. You go to the ER. Therefore, when a natural disaster hits the U.S., you don't look to an agency whose sole responsibility is the prevention of terrorism. You should look to an agency, Federal or otherwise, whose primary and sole mission is to respond to a natural disaster. As I said, FEMA was orginally thought to be that agency, but the problem, I beleive, lies in the fact that FEMA was placed into the Dept. of Homeland Security and thus, it's ability to co-ordinate the Federal response to Hurricane Katrina was taken away.

Mark my words!! When this is all said and done, and all the investigations have been completed, a new agency and/or branch of an agency will be set up to deal with natural disasters as opposed to relying on an agency who are trained on dealing with terrorists and the prevention of terrorism. FEMA should never have been placed entirely under the Dept. of Homeland Security. In my opinion, a FEMA type agency within the Federal Government should have been created, and responsible for co-ordinating a response to a natural disaster. What happened with Katrina, is that we didn't have the right Agency ready to respond properly.

If at the local level mistakes were made, then they need to be addressed and changes need to be made. But, one thing I didn't like about Bush's response was this: He started talking about re-building New Orelans, and promising to make it even more Vibrant, yet New Orelans had yet to be destroyed. There was still hope for those people. People were dying of starvation and dehydration, and he was already talking about rebuilding it. He gave up on New Orelans without even a fight, because there was no Federal Agency prepared to respond with resources that was needed. The Dept. of Homeland Security have the best anti-terrorist personnel in the world, they have all the eavesdropping equipment that money can buy, they have the best interrogators that this Country can produce, they have the best Tactical Law Enforcement Personnel in the World, but does the Dept. of Homeland Security have the best people trained at dealing with how to prevent a levee from breaking before it breaks? Does the Dept. of Homeland Security have the ability to stop raging flood waters? The answer is no, because there game is Terrorism and Terrorsim prevention.

Yes, Federal resources finally started coming in and started to get a firm grasp on the situation. But, look at this as a test. What if this had been a biological or chemical attack from terrorists on the United States. Would the response have been different? No, it wouldn't. In fact, we would have failed miserably. That's small consolation to those that have lost everything they own except their lives. But, let it be known from here on in, that we need an Agency in its own right, to deal with Natural disasters. We need an Agency who knows when to send in National Guard Troops for natural disaster type efforst, as opposed to terrorist related occurances. We need leaders who can co-ordinate effective communication between all Agencies that have a need to be involved in it, and keep out those Agencies that do not need to be involved in it and might actually be a hindrance to the whole operation.

Chertoff standing side by side with Bush over the last few days did nothing to help those people of New Orelans. All it did was highlight that this Nation turned to a person whose resonsibility is to prevent a terrorist attack when we needed someone capable or responding to a natural disaster.

They are both primarily federal responsibilities of the same order. That is why they are both under Homeland Security.

crazyhorse, this statement is wrong. A natural disaster, while requiring Federal assistance, is not a responsibility of the Dept. of Homeland Security. The Dept. of Homeland Security, when it was created, issued in mission statement and outlined its goals and responsibilities. Those goals and responsibilities were to prevent terrorism, and the instruments of terror. So, while a natural disaster might ultimately fall into the hands of the FEDS, the question is WHICH FEDS does it fall to? Does it fall to DOJ, DHS, DOL, etc.... The Dept. of Homeland Security is not a be all and end all Agency who run this country in the event of anything happening. Read the mission statement about how it's focus is to detect, deter, and go after terrorists. We need a Federal Agency responsible for responding to natural disasters, and as I mentioned twice already, FEMA was once that agency until it was placed into the DHS.

tcwest10 wrote:C'mon, now. It isn't going to help anybody displaced or killed by the storm by having someone to blame for it.
At this point, who really cares who woulda, coulda, shoulda ? It happened, and we have to deal with that. This is for later, when there's nothing more to be done to help. All this energy is being used to reinforce already-formed opinions on certain elected officials. It's selfish and insipid. Spend that 15 minutes
thinking on how you can help those who need it right now. I did. I wound up sending about half of my oldest daughter's college fund to the Red Cross in her name.
Why all this drama right now ? It's not helping anybody.

The most important thing we can do right now is make sure this doesn't happen a third time. The job of taking care of the survivors is being inexorably done. Now, there is no time to lose in re-building FEMA, which means reversing Bush policy. We have already forced Brown out. That is only a start. It's obvious both FEMA and HOMELAMD SECURITY will fail again as soon as the opportunity presents itself-- certainly in case of a natural disaster, and probably in case of a terrorists attack.
WE ARE CURRENT INADEQUATELY PROTECTED AND THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS OUR LEADERSHIP IS INCOMPETENT.
The so-call blame game is the best thing we have going for us right now. Do you really want to drive a car that hasn't been inspected?
BUSH OUGHT TO BE SENT A MESSAGE IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS THAT IF THIS MESS OF A SECURITY SYSTEM ISNT FIXED IMMEDIATELY AND OBVIOUSLY HE'S GOING TO BE LOOKING AT A NON-REPUBLICAN CONGRESS IN SHORT ORDER-- ONE THAT IS NOT AFRAID TO START IMPREACHMENT PROCEEDING.
Such a threat might save lives, sir. If the threat doesn't work, clearly identifying and replacing the guilty party certainly will. So far Bush has lost the World Trade Center, the war in Iraq, and the City of New Orleans, not to mention billions in dollars, the honor of America abroad, and the inestimable value of lives. Not to come to grips with that, as you seem to suggest, could cost us so much more. What next? The Atlantic coast? The lives of your children? Mine?

JPFair wrote:

They are both primarily federal responsibilities of the same order. That is why they are both under Homeland Security.

crazyhorse, this statement is wrong. A natural disaster, while requiring Federal assistance, is not a responsibility of the Dept. of Homeland Security. The Dept. of Homeland Security, when it was created, issued in mission statement and outlined its goals and responsibilities. Those goals and responsibilities were to prevent terrorism, and the instruments of terror. So, while a natural disaster might ultimately fall into the hands of the FEDS, the question is WHICH FEDS does it fall to? Does it fall to DOJ, DHS, DOL, etc.... The Dept. of Homeland Security is not a be all and end all Agency who run this country in the event of anything happening. Read the mission statement about how it's focus is to detect, deter, and go after terrorists. We need a Federal Agency responsible for responding to natural disasters, and as I mentioned twice already, FEMA was once that agency until it was placed into the DHS.

My statement would be wrong had not FEMA been folded into the Department of Homeland Security. I do understand where you are coming from though...and I agree with you. However, under the present structure (which I admit is more than assinine), terrorism and natural disaster are both primarily the responsibility of Homeland Security.
I know, or think, you sniff a scandal there. So do I. My take is that Bush folded FEMA into Homeward Security because he saw/sees disaster relief as an entitlement and wanted to shrink it and drown it in the proverbial bathtub. Being stupid, he thought tucking it away and making it incompetent would force Mayors and Governors to develop their own disaster relief capabilities. He still thinks so.
I think he hesitated to go to the aid of New Orlean to serve notice to localities that they had better stop relying on the feds for disaster relief. I think he thought the American people would back him up on the issue. They haven't
Now, he doesn't know what to do and there sits disaster relief still on a par with terrorist attacks.
I don't mean to be critical of you JP, but sometimes you underestimate the reptilian cruelty of George W. Bush. Like many persons of crude intelligence, he lacks imagination, hence empathy.
He did this thing deliberately, for an extremist ideology that needs to disappear from American life.

crazyhorse1 wrote:

DEHog wrote:If you were the Mayor where would you nave spent the night of the Hurricane??

To the north of New Orleans near an air field that could serve as a command post. I would pick a location from which I could copter back to the city and would not likely lose contact with the feds. Further, I would assume, as a worse case scenario, that my ability to respond would have been severely compromised and the city would be almost totally dependent on Homeland Security-- my chief function now becoming the providing of information to FEMA.

But if you care so much about your people and are this great leader your making this mayor out to be...why wouldn't you spend it at one of YOUR shelters? Why wouldn't you take action? What happened in N.O. is in alot of ways what's wrong with Americans today...not taking responsibility for yourself and your actions and then blaming it on someone and looking for them to pay!!

DEHog wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:

DEHog wrote:If you were the Mayor where would you nave spent the night of the Hurricane??

To the north of New Orleans near an air field that could serve as a command post. I would pick a location from which I could copter back to the city and would not likely lose contact with the feds. Further, I would assume, as a worse case scenario, that my ability to respond would have been severely compromised and the city would be almost totally dependent on Homeland Security-- my chief function now becoming the providing of information to FEMA.

But if you care so much about your people and are this great leader your making this mayor out to be...why wouldn't you spend it at one of YOUR shelters? Why wouldn't you take action? What happened in N.O. is in alot of ways what's wrong with Americans today...not taking responsibility for yourself and your actions and then blaming it on someone and looking for them to pay!!

Communications were down in the shelters.Nagin moved to an area that allowed him greater utility. His activites were considerable and were conducted in the absense of resources. For instance: female bus drivers were too frightened to evacuate citizens. There were many other obstacles that are now coming to light, as are many of his other activities. What is already certain is that he had absolutely no chance against a category four and that both he and FEMA were aware of than early on. He had food and water for two days, tops, and no capacity to police the convention center-- all of which was ceaselessly communicated to FEMA and confirmed by FEMA independently.

As to your other remarks: Americans were paying taxes to support the federal government and FEMA. They were entitled to receive the services they paid for. The federal government is not a private entitity that has its own money and gives gifts (except perhaps to the rich).It is the property of the tax payer, brought and paid for by him. It is one of the means by which the American taxer payer takes care of himself. If the government provides something, you have provided it because you have paid for it, and fought for it, and your forefathers have died for it. The government is yours. To say that you are dependent on your government is like saying you are independent... I am dependent on MY Investment, My education, My skill, and My government that I fought for and Paid for and Own. That is what it means to be an American and not a subject of a king or a state. This government and its resources are Yours and Mine and the property of other Americans.
I mean to take care of My government by kicking out George W. Bush who lost the World Trade Center, the War in Iraq, and now New Orleans.
Would you let a Moron drive Your car after three castatrophic wrecks?

crazyhorse1 wrote:

DEHog wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:

DEHog wrote:If you were the Mayor where would you nave spent the night of the Hurricane??

To the north of New Orleans near an air field that could serve as a command post. I would pick a location from which I could copter back to the city and would not likely lose contact with the feds. Further, I would assume, as a worse case scenario, that my ability to respond would have been severely compromised and the city would be almost totally dependent on Homeland Security-- my chief function now becoming the providing of information to FEMA.

But if you care so much about your people and are this great leader your making this mayor out to be...why wouldn't you spend it at one of YOUR shelters? Why wouldn't you take action? What happened in N.O. is in alot of ways what's wrong with Americans today...not taking responsibility for yourself and your actions and then blaming it on someone and looking for them to pay!!

Communications were down in the shelters.

In your scenario, communications isn't a factor - whereas you are handing everything over to the Feds ASAP.

1niksder wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:

DEHog wrote:

crazyhorse1 wrote:

DEHog wrote:If you were the Mayor where would you nave spent the night of the Hurricane??

To the north of New Orleans near an air field that could serve as a command post. I would pick a location from which I could copter back to the city and would not likely lose contact with the feds. Further, I would assume, as a worse case scenario, that my ability to respond would have been severely compromised and the city would be almost totally dependent on Homeland Security-- my chief function now becoming the providing of information to FEMA.

But if you care so much about your people and are this great leader your making this mayor out to be...why wouldn't you spend it at one of YOUR shelters? Why wouldn't you take action? What happened in N.O. is in alot of ways what's wrong with Americans today...not taking responsibility for yourself and your actions and then blaming it on someone and looking for them to pay!!

Communications were down in the shelters.

In your scenario, communications isn't a factor - whereas you are handing everything over to the Feds ASAP.

New Orleans had food and water for two days, tops. Nagin needed communications chiefly to keep the fire lit under FEMA and keep in touch with the Governor who was scrambling to acquire buses across the state. Meanwhile, FEMA was turning down aid of all kinds, including firefighters, planes, ships, etc. Of the feds, only the Coast Guard did its job. The Coast Guard was magnificent, saving thousands, as did local heroics and volunteers from around the country.

Anybody heard the one yet about FEMA sending firefighters who volunteered to assist New Orleans to an Atlanta hotel for community relations and sexual awareness training; or the one about the caravan of puzzled relief workers, equipment, and supplies from Mexico that FEMA sent to well-stocked San Antonio, Texas?

Well, guess what I found out? Both of those jokes are true.