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Has anyone read Tom Friedman's The World is Flat?

If so, what did you think? I'm about to start it.

My cubicle neighbor has been reading it. My prejudice, from Friedman's columns and article in NY Times Magazine, is to think:

(a) If he's right, skilled work will (continue to) move to India, China, and the Phillipines. We are all in deep trouble.

(b) Friedman is a bit too credulous. He does not know about, for instance, software development, and is inclined to accept anything that overseas CEO's tell him. Outsourced software tends to be CMM-compliant, and therefore, officially high quality, but it is often lousy. As a development manager once said to me, "We outsourced to TaTa Consulting, and the result was not quite a catastrophe, but it was close". I see similar things in the quality of parts and products from China: crudely made, but cheap. If something is cheaper, but doesn't work, is it a bargain?

OK, so those are my pre-conceptions going into the book. I am inclined not to give it a fair-minded reading.

Does anyone have another opinion?

I haven't read it yet, but a friend of mine loves it.

I have just finished reading Friedman’s “The World Is Flat”. It is one of the best and most sapid business books I have read in a long time… I actually recommend it to all my non-business friends as well since it does a great job of discussing globalization and the rising tide of India and China.

I've read it and found it interesting. I think it's important to proceed politically as if the book is fair warning, especially in light of corporate policy as emerging through policies and attitude of the current administration. Friedman chiefly blames geo-business/marketing forces operating more or less blindly and finding support in the political arena. I would argue otherwise. I see the flatness as more a phenoma of corporate greed and the influence of corporations on governmental polity. I am of the opinion that government should play a protectionist role in order to stave off class war and eventual economic disaster in this country, which puts me in a quantry-- since government is so heavily influenced by corporations at this time it can hardly be regarded as a body capable of acheiving a restrictive out-sourcing policy balanced toward promoting international health in relation to finance and markets and the need to keep workers wages high in the U.S.
I think the book should be taken seriously so that we can begin to deal with this problem.
Ultimately, I suspect that nothing effective be done until the current administration is out of office, the dems clean up the election process and Hillary's triangulation strategy dies and the undue influence of corporate money in politics can be effectively dealt with.

I've been wanting to read it as well, though I really have a few other books to get through before I move on to that one. I have basically the same preconceptions as you, welch. Let me know what you think of it when you are done.

The book is absolutely rediculous. Thank you Mr. Friedman, it's just another "corporations are bad... they exploit people..." piece of nonsense. This kind of stuff is getting rather boring, he's just Michael Moore in disguise. Bowling for Columbine, Farenheit 9/11, and Roger and Me or whatever it's called were all just anticorporate pices of propoganda. this book is not nearly as extreme but you still have to take it with a grain of salt.

The fact is that all this is just pure nonsense. As a country, we outsource everything. We outsource our car production to Germany and Japan, we outsource our wine production to France and Italy, ... The fact is, we have always been doing this and we are better off for doing so. Outsourcing has not increased lately nor has the loss of manufacturing jobs (little known fact -- in the last twenty years the U.S. has lost a smaller proportion of its manufacturing jobs than China has! This fact comes from Robert Reich no less! Manufacturing is just not a viable industry ANYWHERE in the world as far as laborers go. Everywhere manufacturing workers are losing jobs. One day it will just be a few guys in a factory overlooking completely automated production. Machines can build things far more efficiently than people can.). The situation is the same now as it has ever been but now it's a big hotbutton issue because Freidman and Lou Dobbs and the Democratic party has made it so.

The country is better off for outrsourcing. Everyone in the country is able to buy cheaper products and enjoy a better lifestyle because of it.

The unemployment rate is now 5%! That is rediculously low. Even through this recent recession unemployment remained at unbelievably low numbers! Over the last 25 years the U.S. has enjoyed and continues to enjoy the most dynamic economy and lowest unemployment rate of any country in the world! Americans are just more productive than anyone else and have the freeist market and for that reason we enjoy unbelievable prosperity. As was shown by a recent study, even those who live under the so-called "poverty line" are as well off as the average European citizen!

Also, the same people who bash outsourcing are the people who also say "let's give money to the corrupt governments around the world so that the leading class can syphon off 70% and gain an even firmer stranglehold on the commoners while they pretend to be feeding their people" at the G8. That's absolute crap! The way to help people in the Third World is to engage them in the world economy and give them opportunities to succeed. The people who work in IT and call centers in India are very thankful for what they have. In fact, public opinion of the U.S. in India is at an alltime high based on the latest Pew research results that came out in the last month ot two. This even despite our friendship with Musharaf in Pakistan. The main reason they like us so much is because we have engaged them and given them opportunity. I know this from first hand knowledge. I lived in India from '95 to 2000 and in just that short time span it was incredible to see the emergence of a middle class.

And it doesn't matter that now they are taking some IT jobs. This is nothing to worry about. First it was Japan taking car jobs, so what, we adapted and moved on and the entire country was able to enjoy very well made inexpensive cars. Sure, some people lost jobs but new industries emerged as well. Then it was Taiwan was going to crush our computer industry. Well, Taiwan may fabricate most of the motherboards and such that we use and they do it very well but who designs the technology that they use. Americans! Intel, AMD, nVidia, ... We are still the ones that innovate and we are still the ones that do the really important jobs. The same will be so in India. They may do the simple jobs but I have no doubt that the American IT industry will always stay far in the lead of everyone else.

In the end corporations are what is good about America. Corporations are what employ people and perform the services and make the goods that people desire. Here is the one simple, undeniable fact that people seem to forget about corporations and capitalism in general:

People only get rich because others WANT to give them money!

In other words, the richest people in American society are those that have provided the most to society as a whole. Nobody is forced to but an iPod but they do because it provides them with a great deal of satisfaction. Therefore, Steve Jobs doesn't go around and steal money as is the case in the oligarchies of the third world, instead he is given it willingly because people love what he has to offer. Corporations are never successful unless they are productive, well run, and supply something that people want. In fact, it has been proven that the most highly valued corporations on the stock market are those that look ahead and make sure to have good governance; those that have a diverse and open board with good oversight, those that are NOT corrupt and are forthcoming with their investors, those that treat their employees well and therefore are very productive,... Corporations are what have made this country and they are what is great about this country. The free flow of ideas in a capitalistic (is that a word?) society is what makes us strong and keeps us ahead. We are more open to new ideas than anyone and when we reach out and engage the world economically we learn even more and new ideas emerge. The U.S. is a melting pot of not just ethnicities but also culture and ideas.

There are both good and bad aspects to evrything that happens in life. Sure, there are problems with globalization but overall it is the best possible thing that can happen to mankind. Only through globalization can the people who now live in absolute poverty be able to one day enjoy lives where they no longer must starve and suffer.

The U.S. has led globalization and it is the model for everywhere else in the world. I just heard yesterday on NPR about a condom factory in China where the owner said that in order to become successful he implemented the clever management ideas the U.S. corporations had developed and use such as stock options and paying his employees more than the market wage in order to make sure that they remained healthy, happy, and productive. As long as we remain open-minded and resourceful we lead the way while everyone else follows. From someone who has lived in India and traveled to China they are so far behind us it is impossible for us to imagine. What's more, China still suffers from an oppressive regime and a poor banking sector. India is more free but there are still some cultural barriers there. His book was interesting but I think most of it was just fear-mongering. Globaliztion is definately the way to go.

hkHog wrote:The unemployment rate is now 5%! That is rediculously low. Even through this recent recession unemployment remained at unbelievably low numbers! Over the last 25 years the U.S. has enjoyed and continues to enjoy the most dynamic economy and lowest unemployment rate of any country in the world! Americans are just more productive than anyone else and have the freeist market and for that reason we enjoy unbelievable prosperity. As was shown by a recent study, even those who live under the so-called "poverty line" are as well off as the average European citizen!

Actually, the U.S. falls in 48th place, according to the CIA World Factbook.



http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2129rank.html

hkHog,
Did you read this book?

As I said, I haven't read it yet, but my understanding is that it isn't about the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs. It's about the leveling of the high-tech playing field.

Gibbs' Hog wrote:

hkHog wrote:The unemployment rate is now 5%! That is rediculously low. Even through this recent recession unemployment remained at unbelievably low numbers! Over the last 25 years the U.S. has enjoyed and continues to enjoy the most dynamic economy and lowest unemployment rate of any country in the world! Americans are just more productive than anyone else and have the freeist market and for that reason we enjoy unbelievable prosperity. As was shown by a recent study, even those who live under the so-called "poverty line" are as well off as the average European citizen!

Actually, the U.S. falls in 48th place, according to the CIA World Factbook.



http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2129rank.html

I meant any country of great significance. We are now below Great Britain. The only other important country on that list is Switzerland which is tiny. Where's India, China, France, Germany, and Russia. Where are the world powers?

cvillehog wrote:hkHog,
Did you read this book?

As I said, I haven't read it yet, but my understanding is that it isn't about the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs. It's about the leveling of the high-tech playing field.

Yeah, I know. My friend made me read some of it last week but I didn't really like it. It's funny because I was just debating him about it last night. I just used manufacturing jobs as a comparison because the common thing that people say is "OK we're losing manufacturing jobs, but now we're even losing our high tech jobs too." I am just trying to say that we will adapt as we always do. Basically, this is not a threat to our way of life. In fact, this is the best possible way that we can make friends around the world. This is something that should be embraced. Sure, the playing field has leveled but we will still lead the way as we always do. My friend seemed to think that this was a real threat to us after reading the book so a lot of my reaction may be based on some of his preconcieved ideas about the subject but I see globalization as something to embrace. I'm all for the inclusion of the rest of the world into our economy. If the rest of the world can produce great products and services I know that because of our entreprenerial spirit we will simply take this and find ways to apply it. We can't roll over and give up, we must be engaged in order to stay ahead.

hkHog wrote:

Gibbs' Hog wrote:

hkHog wrote:The unemployment rate is now 5%! That is rediculously low. Even through this recent recession unemployment remained at unbelievably low numbers! Over the last 25 years the U.S. has enjoyed and continues to enjoy the most dynamic economy and lowest unemployment rate of any country in the world! Americans are just more productive than anyone else and have the freeist market and for that reason we enjoy unbelievable prosperity. As was shown by a recent study, even those who live under the so-called "poverty line" are as well off as the average European citizen!

Actually, the U.S. falls in 48th place, according to the CIA World Factbook.



http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2129rank.html

I meant any country of great significance. We are now below Great Britain. The only other important country on that list is Switzerland which is tiny. Where's India, China, France, Germany, and Russia. Where are the world powers?

In addition to having a higher unemployment rate than us, many of the other 'world powers' percentages are artificially low, being masked by rather large welfare states.

Also, while the US certainly ranks very high on the list of "most free" free-market economies in the world, it is definitely not #1 on the list (from your previous post). Top 5 maybe, but not number 1.


Edit: One additional thing. While the poor in our country are generally better off than the poor of most of the rest of the world, it is misleading to say that they are as well off as the average European citizen. While that may be true, most people will think of French, British, or Italian citizens when hearing that statement. The eastern European nations, economically devestated by decades of war and central planning, bring down the average standard of living in Europe considerably.

The book is absolutely rediculous. Thank you Mr. Friedman, it's just another "corporations are bad... they exploit people..." piece of nonsense. This kind of stuff is getting rather boring, he's just Michael Moore in disguise. Bowling for Columbine, Farenheit 9/11, and Roger and Me or whatever it's called were all just anticorporate pices of propoganda. this book is not nearly as extreme but you still have to take it with a grain of salt.

1. Read the book first.

2. If anything, Tom Friedman is "pro-corporate", in that he thinks global free-trade will make the world safe from bomb-throwing religious true-believers. That was his argument in *The Lexus and the Olive Tree*, which was a big hit during, I think, the summer of 2001.

3. What is a corporation like? I have worked for global corporations for 21 years. They are not kindly, beneficient animals. Read Dilbert: Scott Adams is pretty accurate, in part because he gets his ideas from people who work for a living.

4. I have just finished a grimly pessimistic and hilarious book by Barbara Ehrenreich called *Bait and Switch: The (Futile) Pursuit of the American Dream*. Read it. Consider your future, even if you think you are highly trained, highly skilled, confidently ready for the four careers that economists claim each of us will have: "if my luck leaves me, I am lost".

India and China have the ability each, separately, to change profoundly the economic, professional and labour markets in the World, not only the West or even North America (for those self-centered).

Interstingly, I am convinced that this competition is good for everybody. It compels economies to be more efficient and productive.

As in North America, you can get good and bad work done in India and China. But believe me: you get what you pay for -everywhere-.

hkHog wrote:The book is absolutely rediculous. Thank you Mr. Friedman, it's just another "corporations are bad... they exploit people..." piece of nonsense. This kind of stuff is getting rather boring, he's just Michael Moore in disguise. Bowling for Columbine, Farenheit 9/11, and Roger and Me or whatever it's called were all just anticorporate pices of propoganda. this book is not nearly as extreme but you still have to take it with a grain of salt.

The fact is that all this is just pure nonsense. As a country, we outsource everything. We outsource our car production to Germany and Japan, we outsource our wine production to France and Italy, ... The fact is, we have always been doing this and we are better off for doing so. Outsourcing has not increased lately nor has the loss of manufacturing jobs (little known fact -- in the last twenty years the U.S. has lost a smaller proportion of its manufacturing jobs than China has! This fact comes from Robert Reich no less! Manufacturing is just not a viable industry ANYWHERE in the world as far as laborers go. Everywhere manufacturing workers are losing jobs. One day it will just be a few guys in a factory overlooking completely automated production. Machines can build things far more efficiently than people can.). The situation is the same now as it has ever been but now it's a big hotbutton issue because Freidman and Lou Dobbs and the Democratic party has made it so.

The country is better off for outrsourcing. Everyone in the country is able to buy cheaper products and enjoy a better lifestyle because of it.

The unemployment rate is now 5%! That is rediculously low. Even through this recent recession unemployment remained at unbelievably low numbers! Over the last 25 years the U.S. has enjoyed and continues to enjoy the most dynamic economy and lowest unemployment rate of any country in the world! Americans are just more productive than anyone else and have the freeist market and for that reason we enjoy unbelievable prosperity. As was shown by a recent study, even those who live under the so-called "poverty line" are as well off as the average European citizen!

Also, the same people who bash outsourcing are the people who also say "let's give money to the corrupt governments around the world so that the leading class can syphon off 70% and gain an even firmer stranglehold on the commoners while they pretend to be feeding their people" at the G8. That's absolute crap! The way to help people in the Third World is to engage them in the world economy and give them opportunities to succeed. The people who work in IT and call centers in India are very thankful for what they have. In fact, public opinion of the U.S. in India is at an alltime high based on the latest Pew research results that came out in the last month ot two. This even despite our friendship with Musharaf in Pakistan. The main reason they like us so much is because we have engaged them and given them opportunity. I know this from first hand knowledge. I lived in India from '95 to 2000 and in just that short time span it was incredible to see the emergence of a middle class.

And it doesn't matter that now they are taking some IT jobs. This is nothing to worry about. First it was Japan taking car jobs, so what, we adapted and moved on and the entire country was able to enjoy very well made inexpensive



cars. Sure, some people lost jobs but new industries

emerged as well. Then it was Taiwan was going to crush our computer industry. Well, Taiwan may fabricate most of the motherboards and such that we use and they do it very well but who designs the technology that they use. Americans! Intel, AMD, nVidia, ... We are still the ones that innovate and we are still the ones that do the really important jobs. The same will be so in India. They may do the simple jobs but I have no doubt that the American IT industry will always stay far in the lead of everyone else.

In the end corporations are what is good about America. Corporations are what employ people and perform the services and make the goods that people desire. Here is the one simple, undeniable fact that people seem to forget about corporations and capitalism in general:

People only get rich because others WANT to give them money!

In other words, the richest people in American society are those that have provided the most to society as a whole. Nobody is forced to but an iPod but they do because it provides them with a great deal of satisfaction. Therefore, Steve Jobs doesn't go around and steal money as is the case in the oligarchies of the third world, instead he is given it willingly because people love what he has to offer. Corporations are never successful unless they are productive, well run, and supply something that people want. In fact, it has been proven that the most highly valued corporations on the stock market are those that look ahead and make sure to have good governance; those that have a diverse and open board with good oversight, those that are NOT corrupt and are forthcoming with their investors, those that treat their employees well and therefore are very productive,... Corporations are what have made this country and they are what is great about this country. The free flow of ideas in a capitalistic (is that a word?) society is what makes us strong and keeps us ahead. We are more open to new ideas than anyone and when we reach out and engage the world economically we learn even more and new ideas emerge. The U.S. is a melting pot of not just ethnicities but also culture and ideas.

There are both good and bad aspects to evrything that happens in life. Sure, there are problems with globalization but overall it is the best possible thing that can happen to mankind. Only through globalization can the people who now live in absolute poverty be able to one day enjoy lives where they no longer must starve and suffer.

The U.S. has led globalization and it is the model for everywhere else in the world. I just heard yesterday on NPR about a condom factory in China where the owner said that in order to become successful he implemented the clever management ideas the U.S. corporations had developed and use such as stock options and paying his employees more than the market wage in order to make sure that they remained healthy, happy, and productive. As long as we remain open-minded and resourceful we lead the way while everyone else follows. From someone who has lived in India and traveled to China they are so far behind us it is impossible for us to imagine. What's more, China still suffers from an oppressive regime and a poor banking sector. India is more free but there are still some cultural barriers there. His book was interesting but I think most of it was just fear-
mongering. Globaliztion is definately the way to go.

24% of the current U.S. adult work force receives less than half of a living wage. The number of jobs is off the issue.
It's not the unskilled labor of foreign countries alone that is forcing Americans into low paying jobs. The far greater problem is that corporations are outsourcing the higher income professionals, such as enginering, accounting, etc., leaving unskilled jobs to Americans. Increasingly, skilled American professions are being forced to take jobs as unskilled workers-- the entire class of which has no insurance, no real homes, inadequate sanitary and cooking facilities, no transportation to depend on or money for health issues. Further, this twenty four percent takes between 2 and 3 full-time jobs at a time and are routinely fired from each at intervals so that they'll never receive a raise.
The death rate amoung this full-time class of worker forced to work below his skill level is very high...from suicide, exposure, failed health and endurance. Psychological problems are rampant and untreated. Overwork and lack of time for education and child care is breeding ignorance and stunting personal growth.
An excellent book on the phenomena is Nickeled and Dimed. Another is Fastfood Nation, which explores how corporate strategies toward their workers derived from the success of the "turn over" and "untrained labor" policies developed by the fastfood industry.
The long term effects of this corporate stategy-- and it is a corporated strategy-- could eventuate in an extremely high percent of the American workforce working at less than a living wage, brought about principally by the pouring of campaign money to politial camps and the consequent destruction of our political process.
Sure, if you haven't lost your good job yet, life is ok, prices are cheap, make so by cheap labor. The trouble is, not long from now, you'll be losing your good job
and will hit the streets looking for $six bucks an hour.
Those cheap prices will look pretty stiff then.

If the priviledge few aren't concertained about this, they should be. The American people aren't going to live with diminished means like corporate America thinks they will. If they don't revolt outright, the American worker will bring back labor unions and increasing violence. If that doesn't work, the worker will soon enough turn the syslem upside down politically and bring about a vastly different economic order. There'll be a nationwide insistence that the Robber Barons go. There'll be new politians and laws.
Corporate America is on a road to self destruction. Your support of present policy will just hasten that day.

. . .or, at least, that's a fairly standard critical theorist's response. Free markets breed monopolies, corporate strategies impoversh a working class that is forced to act in certain ways, revolutions are the inevitable result, etc.

nkHog, or anyone else, can just as easily post a response steeped in a world-view that doesn't share your assumptions. You'll end up talking past each other.

(For the record: I don't support present policy; I'd like to see the government get out of business once and for all.)


It's hard to imagine us getting much beyond this point, but I will say this: I don't find your statistics particularly trustworthy, I've read one of the two books that you mention (and am familiar with the other)--and that isn't helping your case in my opinion. (We can talk about why, if you'd like, perhaps in a separate thread).

Your predictions don't really have historical precedent and follow very closely a relatively extreme perspective that you're taking into the debate.

The reason I say all of this is because this discussion is getting mixed into the one that welch started. He recommended a book that I haven't read, which piqued my interest. But now the thread is starting to go from being useful and interesting toward (yet another) rhetorical marshmallow.

I've only read about 1/4 of Friedman's book, but so far it strikes me as a bloated "Electronic Commerce for Dummies". Something about his dopey style. There are some glimmers of thought under the style, like seeing something shining on the bottom of the creek where I grew up.

Still, I've been annotating the pages as I go.

I'll get back to it as soon as I finsh a novel about Afganistan called *The Kite Runner*. My wife stuck it in my hand and said "read this", and after about 25 pages, I can't stop.

Whoops, yeah, that should have read "asked about" or something, not "recommended."