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Realistic Look at the O-Line
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:25 am
by Justin
It has seemed to me that there is pretty much a consensus on this board that the O-Line is in poor shape. While I must admit that the line has underachieved over the past few... okay, several years, I tend to disagree that we need to put a tremendous amount of resources into that area. I feel this way for two major reasons: (1) I think we would get diminishing returns; and (2) if we change the rotation significantly than we lost all chemistry that was had.
As far as diminishing returns, I say that because who/how do we all plan on improving the unit. Three positions on the line are set - LT, RG, and RT; there is no reason in my mind to discuss a method to reasonably improve upon them. That leaves LG (Dockery) and C.
Dockery was a third round pick and previous All-American. Personally, who would we get that is any better and what we would have to pay/draft pick use to get them? After that expense, would it be worth the investment? I doubt it. We all talk about developing our own talent but I guess this is situation where that does not apply.
For the center position I will make no argument that we need to improve - I think this was made obvious as the year progressed. However, the opinion that any center we take in the 3rd round will become and instant starter is far fetched in my opinion. Realistically, I think we need to sign a veteran leader type who is serviceable (unlike Raymer) and that is as best as we can do.
My second point was that we need to try and maintain some chemistry. Changing one position (center) will shake that up enough (especially as Jansen essentially did not play last year); nevertheless, I think we should keep the left side in place and Thomas and Jansen did have one year together. Good lines are built through time not necessarily talent - haven't we proven that by now?
Backup wise, we seem intent on keeping R. Brown, our rookies from last year will continue to develop and so that is 3 players right there. Adding another new face in addition is fine but I cannot imagine this coaching staff drafting at least 1 player to fill out the roster.
So I'd sign a veteran center and draft a lineman.... quite frankly that is all that I see is reasonable. My question then is what would you all suggest and why? As an aside, to me, this really means we draft WR or trade down for picks.
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:16 am
by Scottskins
That's what most of us have been saying for awhile now. The only difference being that if Samuels doesn't restructure, he gets cut, and we need another LT. The Center will come from free agency. No doubt about it. It's by far a vets position. That doesn't mean they won't draft a center as well. If Samuels leaves, then we would likely need to draft a great LT and let him learn behind one of last years rooks until he's ready, or they steal the job.
I figure we will sign one of the good Centers thru free agency(there are a few) restructure Samuels, and draft a OL in the later rounds. We will sign a low end free agent WR and draft a raw WR in the later rounds. We may sign a CB, but most likely we will lose Smoot and go with who we have on the roster for starters. A CB in the draft is also probable.
With that scenario, I believe we will trade down in the first round picking up a low 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder. We will then draft a DE, CB and DL in the first 3 rounds. Not necessarily in that order. Best player available will determine the order.
my .02 cents
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:26 am
by coachKarl
With Jansen back the o-line will be improved, we will use at least 1 pick in the draft for o-line help, and another pick for a WR, and a CB.
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:27 am
by Scottskins
By the way, for those of us who think our OLine is that bad, have a closer look. Jon Jansen will be back, and he should be a pro bowler. He's one of the best RT in the game. Randy Thomas is probably just about as good at RG. One of the best. Samuels is a former pro bowler, and contrary to what I think, the coaches think he's playing fine. Regardless, with Buges coaching him up, I think he'll return to form. Dockery is progressing pretty nicely for a 2nd year guy, and Buges loves the kids potential. I'd say in the next couple years, he'll be a monster. That's 4 of the 5 spots. We are pretty solid with those 4 guys.
Raymer on the other hand falls pretty short. His best days(which were pretty good) are far far behind him. His position is arguably the most important. He must be replaced. There are some very good Centers in free agency and I bet we get one of them. Once next season starts, I think we will see a whole new dimension to this offense. We will be blowing people off the line, and Portis is gonna run wild on the right side especially.
Gibbs will have his line next season, his very well protected and confident QB and the wins will reflect it.
The future's so bright, I gotta...
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:09 am
by BringThePain!
I think you've mistaken what some of us who stress O-line, O-line, O-line are meaning....
I personally am only meaning that we need to build quality depth... and I'd rather see it through the draft, preferably in the early rounds.... Samuels,Dockery,Raymer,Thomas, and Jansen can all keep there starting jobs as far as I'm concerned... by they need to be tested... they need to know that if they don't perform... that there's a guy behind them who's going to get a shot at their job...
Sometimes that alone can motivate players... plus if we've got quality depth... and someone goes down with an injury... we're not shaking in our boots worried that our seasons gone to shambles...
Stats don't lie... Ramsey is recieving too much pressure most days... not saying that it's all the O-line's fault... but a believe a majority of it has been......
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:36 am
by trey53
I think our O-line is in good potential shape. Losing Jansen really hurt this past year. I really believe that he is the true leader of the line. That alone will improve the line's effectiveness. Dockery will be fine...each year he has gotten better and cut down on his mistakes. I am still not sold , however, on Raymer. I think that he was really good in the day but it seemed to me that alot of pressure on the QB came from the center of the line (yes I realize not all of that is Raymer). I also don't think that he has the power to drive the blocks that he used to. He didn't seem to have any push. To be quite honest I would like to see Gibbs bring in some competition for the Center position. It might be that Raymer needs the challeneg to play his A game... I agree with BTP that building through the draft is the way to go, though. Is there really a FA center that anyone thinks is worth it?
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:36 am
by JansenFan
BringThePain! wrote:I think you've mistaken what some of us who stress O-line, O-line, O-line are meaning....
I personally am only meaning that we need to build quality depth... and I'd rather see it through the draft, preferably in the early rounds.... Samuels,Dockery,Raymer,Thomas, and Jansen can all keep there starting jobs as far as I'm concerned... by they need to be tested... they need to know that if they don't perform... that there's a guy behind them who's going to get a shot at their job...
Sometimes that alone can motivate players... plus if we've got quality depth... and someone goes down with an injury... we're not shaking in our boots worried that our seasons gone to shambles...
Stats don't lie... Ramsey is recieving too much pressure most days... not saying that it's all the O-line's fault... but a believe a majority of it has been......
Well BTP, that makes three of us who don't think Raymer is as bad as everyone thinks he is. Seems to me that there were no fumbled snaps once he took over, most of the sacks we gave up came on blitxes which doesn't necessarily fall on the centers shoulders, and while he did get called for holding a bit, he only held when it was the difference between Ramsey getting killed and losing 10 yards and a down instead of 10 yards for the penalty and no loss of down.
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:12 pm
by BossHog
Four guys.
I guess the coaching staff just decided to forget they had Lennie Friedman eh?
... or maybe they just didn't think Cory was the problem.
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:26 pm
by BringThePain!
Yeah... I believe all of our guys... including Raymer & Dockery have the potential to make our line great... They just haven't showed it yet... and I believe it's because nobody is there to challenge for their position...
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:44 pm
by NikiH
Four guys and girl. I get sick of hearing that Raymer is adequete. I think he was 5 times better then Friedman. I hope he stays. Seems like the coaching staff likes him.
Oh and I forgot. Judging the O-line on last years performance isn't exactly fair. No Jansen. Next year the performance of our starters will be solid. However we need depth because you never know what could happen. The team was stuck without Jansen last year. Let's prepare for it to happen again and if doesn't wonderful, if it does we'll be thanking people who are saying draft for the O-line.

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:20 pm
by GoSkins
I agree about the comments regarding our interior line; i.e. sign a FA center and draft a OG/C in the 3rd round. However, let's not forget about the tight end position. Royal is our only real good TE.

ey is NOT a TE, he is a HB. The rest are old and/or mistake prone. We need another TE. Whether it's in the draft or FA I don't know.
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:24 pm
by NikiH
Wouldn't it be easier to find a TE in free agency? I may be mistaken but a more experienced TE is better then an experienced Guard or Center? Especially because the G or C would be back up material, where the TE would likely see action right away.
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:36 pm
by Scooter
I really want to see a change in the middle. But in all fairness, the play-calling was so pathetic - it made the entire offense look worse than it probably is. I think Dockery is on the verge of a breakout season. Top-notch centers are simply too few and far between to get. I like Mawae and Kreutz. Fraley had a great year but he's not at the level of the other guys - a distant third. Raymer... about a 26th best in my book.
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:45 pm
by Clinton Portis
Raymer is NOT a bad player...to people who think anyone who wants a new center is saying that.
He's good. But he's not good enough! He is the weak link in the line and that needs to be corrected. I like the guy as much as the next fan, but we need a better center to even out the line. With Dockery,Samuels,Jansen,Thomas (insert new center),we should be an elite line. But only if:
Samuels Restructures, both his contract and his form.
Raymer moves to Backup. We acquire a better center.
Dockery finally breaks out and shows his true performance.
and the given, when Jansen returns.
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:48 pm
by NikiH
Wait a darn second???? We had a 40 year old man playing in place of Jansen and Cory Raymer was the weak link?? What exactly made him the weak link? I am sick and tired of hearing this from people with absolutely nothing to back it up other then "I think". Tell me what makes him bad? Besides your personal taste???
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:08 pm
by Clinton Portis
NikiH wrote:Wait a darn second???? We had a 40 year old man playing in place of Jansen and Cory Raymer was the weak link?? What exactly made him the weak link? I am sick and tired of hearing this from people with absolutely nothing to back it up other then "I think". Tell me what makes him bad? Besides your personal taste???
Alright Niki.
Completly Ignoring Ray Brown. He was a substitute. I mean Raymer was the weak link in the full line.
Alright. Raymer was a good. Back in his days. He was good all through 1995-2001, then he went to the Chargers as a backup. When he came back here for the 2004 season, its clear that he was not the same guy he had all those years. He's been around for a long time and he's lost his edge. He'd be a great backup, but as a starter, NO! He's a good player, but he's simply not the center we need. Maybe thats my personal preference.
I can back it up by him constantly holding which loses us more yards than the opposing player sackin our QB. He doesnt do very well on blitzes. Back to the holding, it took away from a touchdown, and often ruins the rhythm of the drive. He's often overmatched, and since he's getting near the the top end of his career, it doesnt seem like him being overmatched will change. Its just my personal opinion that Cory has been declining, and him holding and getting overmatched in different games doesnt reinforce the sentiment that he's not a weak link. Theres no discreet evidence that shows he's a STRONG link either. To me, and maybe to others, he's just not up to task anymore. I wouldn't like to see him LEAVE, but I would like to see him be a backup, or at least get some real competition for the starting job.
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:18 pm
by Redskin in Canada
We need a good center. And we will bring one. After that:
It is a competition in training camp.
If they bring a quality center, Raymer is a backup. He lost his starting job in San Diego already once.
Otherwise, we would have a good backup. What is there to lose either way?
Unless anybody wishes to keep Friedman...

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:25 pm
by NikiH
Ok well you know what. I am sick of hearing Raymer isn't a quality Center. This is just your opinions versus mine. Maybe because I'm just learning the game of football I have a more open mind about what caused those holding penalties. I've been told by someone very knowledgable about football that as opposed to allowing the sack the old school coaches would sometimes prefer the penalty. So if that's the case can you blame Raymer??
I'd love to see the stats on his penalties versus young Sean Taylor's penalties for handling things the wrong way, since you guys seem to love him.
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:14 pm
by John Manfreda
They need a center, and to stay together. I would keep Dockery, he will devolop.
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:17 pm
by John Manfreda
Center should not be adressed in free agency. I am sick of taking other teams players. Draft the center from Michigan he will be great. Do whatever it takes to get him. Our offensive free agents have not panned out. Griffin, Washington, and Springs have been great so far. But that is it. You build winning teams through the draft not free agency.
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:36 pm
by SkinsJock
I would also agree with the thinking that we just need some quality depth AND some competition for positions (this means the same, doesn't it?). Our offensive lineman are not far off and with some additions, a better scheme and some healthy bodies we should see the results this year.
I think we need a new center but not because there is anything wrong with Cory but he is now a very good backup and mentor to younger players a la Russ Grimm. Ray Brown is also a backup and a good influence but he is not able to handle it over a full season. The younger guys are going to contribute and we should add even more in the later rounds.
I hope we see C Sam re-do his contract soon. I notice there seems to be trend lately from a lot of players renegotiating to "help" their teams. This has got to piss off those that want their teams to "sho' me the $"
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:47 pm
by Clinton Portis
NikiH wrote: This is just your opinions versus mine.
Its no problem. I respect your opinion.

I was just stating mine.
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:49 pm
by NikiH
I respect yours too but it's WRONG!! lol
Just kidding. I just think that Raymer is a solid center. And he should stay. Neither of us makes that decision so it's cool.

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:45 pm
by redskincity
Raymer sucks and gets pushed around way too much.
He cant pull because he is slower than the Statue of Liberty and we need a center who can block and comprehend schemes.
I think once Dockery learns to hold his own, then Chris will flourish once again. INMO between Dockery and Raymer someone needs to go or grow.
Jansen is solid. Thomas is solid.
Our lines needs to be addressed this offseason, if we are to make a run.
Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:49 pm
by redskincity
PS
Raymer can’t even hold a freakin Linebacker, let alone a DT.