The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

I have several points that I want to make.

You might want to review your history. This country was not founded on going to war at every opportunity. The founding fathers wanted to isolate this country from the rest of the world. We didn't want to get involved in the rest of the world's conflicts. We didn't even plan on fighting in WWII until the attack on Pearl Harbor.

The soliders of this country have joined the military to protect this country. That does not mean that the president has the right to send them to war without cause. Our troops should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances.

Iraq was never a threat to this country. They had no weapons of mass destruction. The terrorists only got there when we invaded and they came into the country to fight us. The war in Iraq was unjustified. Only after we invaded did Bush try to sell America on the fact that Hussein was a dictator and he had to go.

My dad served two tours in Vietnam in the infantry. He is as anti war as they come. Does that make him a "pacifist hippie?" Because he is anti war, does that mean his opinion is worth nothing? Does that make him anti-American? If thats what you believe, then why don't you go up to the next
war veteren who is anti war and say it to their face.

My view point is rather simple. If you have the balls to support a war, then go fight. If you have the balls to tell me that you would "without hesitation" die for this country, then prove it. Don't tell me what you would do. Show me what you are doing. Far too many people in this country are willing to send others off to die without being willing to make the same sacrifice.

No, I am not a soldier. I have never been in the military, and barring a draft, I never will be. But since when does that mean that my opinion doesn't count. Thats one of my biggest complaints about those that support the war. They are ultra patriotic and love to talk about protecting the rights of Americans. Yet they don't seem to recognize the freedom to voice an opinion of dissent as one of those rights worth protecting. Beyond that, military service is only one way to serve and/or protect the country. Teachers do a great deal for this country, as do police officers and fire fighters. Doctors save lives every day. As a volunteer fire fighter, and someone who is willing to risk his own life to save another's, I think that my opinion is worth a damn bit more than "a fart in the wind."

Patrick this is all BS. Members of our armed forces fall in a catergory a teacher could never in a million years touch. And you have not the slightest clue about the sacrifice that these men and women make even when the country is not at war. I was the wife of a Marine. I saw first hand the struggle and the sacrifice made. If you are not willing to stand up and serve this country then I agree with Hailskins, you have no right to be an extremeist on this war. You have no knowledge of war, you have no knowledge of what it is to give up your individuality to protect insolent people who believe it is their right to disparage your cause and your sacrifice. Not one veteran I have talked to has made these comments about the war and I know alot of veterans. The Hurrey family has more veterans then the average family, and one day my son will surely follow in the footsteps of his father, uncles, cousins, and join the Marine Corps. I then will be making the ultimate sacrifice for this country and I will not whine or whimper about it like you are now. It is a privlege to live in a country where there is someone else to protect your right to be opinionated and outspoken about your views, even if they cause hurt and harm to the very members protecting you.

Saddam was a terrorist. His terror reigned over the people of Iran, Kuwait, and anyone within his reach. I imagine that the same comments would have been made had we began a military action in Afghanastan prior to 9-11 to capture Osama Bin Laden. Thousands upon thousands of lives would have been saved. So the mere possibility of preventing another attack such as that is reason enough to capture anyone who is the slightest similar threat. The majority of this country obviously agrees, the President was re-elected as this being the primary election issue.
And while you do have the right to voice your opinion you DO NOT have the right to disrespect a life lost in this cause just because the cause is not your own. This country was built on the fact that the majority decides. The majority elected this President to do what he sees fit. If you don't like that it is your right to go on every message board in America and write it over and over again. HOWEVER when the loss of human life becomes the topic anyone with any type of compassion is smart enough to offer condolences and leave the topic be. You however must either be too immature to have figured that out or too pompas to let it appear you were defeated or sidetracked.

The thinking that we have elected a president and he should do as he sees fit and that no one should ever question him is not only not patriotic, it is anti-american and in my opinion, akin to nazism. If, because I am anti-war, I should not be allowed to express my opinions, then this is not a country worth fighting for, let alone dieing for.

Just because you have not talked to any veterens who are anti war, that does not mean that they aren't out there. As I said before, my dad saw combat in Vietnam, and was wounded. If any one has the right to express their feelings about war, it is him, and he is as against the Iraqi war as anyone. This war was never justified and contrary to what you may believe, this does not dishonor the lives of those who have died in Iraq. My dad has seen combat and he feels that it is the duty of those who have seen it to make sure that no one will have to go through it again. But according to you and everyone else who isn't willing to think for themselves, he is being anti-american.

Don't lecture me on "sacrifice" and then tell me your son will be making your "sacrifice" for you. Women can join the military. If you feel that strongly about making a "sacrifice," then do it yourself. I ahve no respect for someone who is willing to send their own child to off to war, and then claim that they are making a "sacrifice." Bull. He will be making the sacrifice, not you. Just like your husband made the sacrifice, not you.

And the only thing I wish for our soldiers is for them to come home alive. If I wished them harm, wouldn't I actually support the war?

And my point about teachers and doctors was that killing isn't the only way to serve the country. I'm a volunteer firefighter. I risk my life to save others every time I go into a burning house. Now, is that on the same level as being in the military, of course not. But to say that I do nothing to serve this country is a slap in the face not only to me, but also every other fire fighter in the country, as well as the 343 that died on 9/11.

Ok you win. The vote is for too immature to get the point. You want a pat on the back for being a volunteer fire fighter. Well (pat pat pat). Don't sit there and think you know jack *sh$t* about me or my sacrifice, you have no clue. You are also obviously not a parent because you would then understand what I was talking about. I would give my life in an instant to save my child's life. I was refering to family history. My son will likely follow in his ancestors foot steps and be one of the few stepping up to protect narrow minded people such as yourself. I will not "send my child off to war". I will stand behind the decisions he makes in life, and if that is one of them, then I will support him 100%. As far as I am concerned your posts are CRAP. Your logic is CRAP. And you are at any cost trying to get people to see that you are right.

And I think you need to reread my post. I said you have every right to repeat over and over again your opinion. I DO NOT have to share your opinion or even give it a second thought. It blows my mind that people in your shoes seem to think it is ok to degrade me and my opinion yet if I try to counter in the same manner I am told I am keeping some grand freedom of speech from you. Grow up! Just because I examined the facts and came to a different conclusion, that does not make me uneducated, uninformed, or a follower. I am very well educated. I read and research to form my opinion on this world and the events that occur with in it. So if I do not agree with you I am a big enough person to walk away knowing that you have your views and I have mine and the two never need to meet.

My point isn't that everyone who supports the war is a nazi and everyone who is against it is standing up for free speech. I am not degrading your opinion that the war in Iraq is justified. What I don't like is your insinuation that questioning the president at all is anti-american.

I never asked for a pat on the back for being a firefighter. The only thing I ask is enough respect not to get lectured about the sacrifices of war from someone who has never seen it themselves. And after you are done patronizing me, why don't you tell me what exactly you do for this country. Not what your family does. What you do.

Any parent who truly cares about their kid will do everything to see that they don't go to war. All that stuff about sacrifice and honor goes out the window when a parent is talking about their kids. And any soldier who has seen the horrors of combat sure as hell will do everything in their power to see that their kids don't have to experience it.

It is ironic that someone who thinks it is unpatriotic to question the president is calling me narrow minded.

not really worth the time it takes to type this, but here goes. i never said anything about the president or his decision. i said its a dog eat dog world. kill or be killed. personally, i'd rather kill. i don't get the whole "bring our troops home" thing. they all volunteered to be there. they weren't forced. maybe you don't like the cause of our soldiers being there, but the soldiers are willing to die for it and thats enough for me.

if fighting to prevent any future terrorist acts against this country is unjustified, then what is justified? is that not protecting the people with the troops? should we sit around with our thumb up our ass waiting to see whats next? i don't understand the line of reasoning of this whole thing being "wrong".

and yes, when the founding fathers decided to declare their freedom, they didn't want to worry about what everyone else was doing. but they also didn't have to worry about the threat of biological, chemical and nueclear weapons that can be launched thousands upon thousands of miles away from the mainland. so what we didn't find anything in iraq. but we did send a message to the rest of the world that if you support terrorism that could affect us, then you are the enemy.

but hey, your a dallas fan so we all know your line of reasoning is twisted from the get go.

hailskins, fighting terrorism is a justifiable cause. But Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism. There were no terrorists there. Bush's initial reason for going to war was that Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. When that couldn't be proved the reason became terrorism. When that couldn't be proved it became Hussein is a dictator. I don't think that going to war with country just because they are controlled by a dictator is justified. The terrorists only began coming into Iraq after we invaded. Plus, you have to consider the fact that by invading Iraq, we have created far more future terrorists than we can ever hope to kill. War is a shortsighted solution to terrorism. If you want to defeat terrorism, you have to change the mindset that is creating it. Hatred of America over there works a lot like religion does here. It is pounded into the heads of little muslim kids that America is evil and that it is a good thing to martyr yourself while killing Americans. If we can change that culture of hate, we can considerably reduce the threat of terrorism.

Did I miss something?

Seriously though, I'm reading a really interesting book right now about the history of the Freedom of Speech during wartime, called Perilous Times. It's quite interesting to read about how our expectations of free speech were developed over time, and then changed/suspended during times of war (or even potential war in the case of the Sedition and Alien Acts of 1798).

lets just say we have different views. we could go back and forth forever. but thats the beauty of a democracy, it doesn't matter what 2 individuals think, its the majority as a whole.

Read my sig!!

My view point is rather simple. If you have the balls to support a war, then go fight. If you have the balls to tell me that you would "without hesitation" die for this country, then prove it. Don't tell me what you would do. Show me what you are doing. Far too many people in this country are willing to send others off to die without being willing to make the same sacrifice.

How do you "go fight a war" if you're not in the service? I'm sure that hailskins666, like I did, registered for the draft and had there been a draft, we would've done our duty. Every loss of American life is a tragedy, but what's the alternative here Patrick? You and others would say "give peace a chance" and, opinions to the contrary, diplomacy WAS tried. I know this: Since 9/11 we haven't been attacked since we went on the offensive. We must be doing something right aren't we? What should we do when the President feels we need to fight fire with fire?

Redskin Don,

Your wrong we have been attacked. Americans in Saudi Arabia were attacked after 9/11.

Plus, Iraq never attacked Americans EVER!

Redskin Don, what exactly did Iraq have to do with 9/11? Afghanistan was one thing. I will never think that war is a good idea, but if a war can be justified, going after Afghanistan was. Thats were al Qaeda was. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. The terrorists got there only after we invaded.

I registered for the draft too. As far as I know, you have to register for the draft in order to register to vote, which is ironic. Think about it. In order to be able to use one of the fundamental rights of a free country, you have to register for a system that can reasonably be compared to slavery.

I have a friend who is like a brother to me fighting in Iraq and I support him every bit of the way, but our reason for going to war has been proven to be weak at best. This war was started under false pretenses, but unfortunately we are stuck there for a while. I come from a small town in South Carolina and there are a lot of people over there that I am close to who do not understand the reason we are fighting this war. Its a sad situation.

Saddam Hussein's regime DID have ties to terrorists and ties to at least one of the scumbags responsible for 9/11. No, CBS, ABC, and NBC didn't fall all over it, but that doesn't make it not so. The aftermath of 9/11 speaks for itself.

I work as a civilian for the Army and have friends who have been and are currently in Iraq so I, like every other true American, agonize over every loss of American life. No one wants that...

Finally, as far as what Iran has or hasn't done to us, the lesson 9/11 should have taught all of us is we can't sit around and wait for the bad guys to attack us. If someone thinks that, they need to head back to "San Francisco with flowers in their hair".

Redskin Don wrote:Saddam Hussein's regime DID have ties to terrorists and ties to at least one of the scumbags responsible for 9/11.

I remember reading in the 9/11 commision report that Iraq had NO connection to 9/11 at all.

Are you trying to say that they are wrong?

I am... Furthermore, do you deny that Saddam had terrorist training camps?

believe that Saddam had WMD at one point in time? I'd venture to say that he did and I believe the UN Security Council thought so too. Next: Do you honestly believe that he wouldn't have, at some point in time, attempted to recreate his arsenal and to export that capability to others who hate this country? I do and, thankfully, so apparently do lots of other Americans in this country as evidenced by the vote in November 2004. This is one fight we can't talk our way out of. They want nothing less than the total destruction of this country and what it stands for. Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional. If we want to facilitate that then we need to elect liberal politicians who don't have the stomach to make the tough choices. Thank goodness the American people haven't gotten that naive yet.

So the 9/11 commision report is wrong then?!?!?!? Do you have proof?

I've got magazine/newspaper articles, etc. Is that good enough for you?

Of course its good enough. Do you have a link?

We should not be in iraq fighting?patrickg68,I guess that it was china that flew the two planes into the twin towers.You say that sadam is innocent?What about the people in iraq that would still be dying today if sadam was still in power.I support bush and we should be in iraq.Go troops!!!

Afghanistan, Iraq, anyone can confuse the two. Besides, those A-rabs are all the same right?

skinpride1 wrote:We should not be in iraq fighting?patrickg68,I guess that it was china that flew the two planes into the twin towers.You say that sadam is innocent?What about the people in iraq that would still be dying today if sadam was still in power.I support bush and we should be in iraq.Go troops!!!

i believe that most of the 9/11 hijackers were from saudia arabia. why aren't we invading over there? and there are several situations around the world where the governing body is doing severe damage to its inhabitants. by your logic, we should be invading a dozen countries for their involvement in 9/11 and/or their mistreatment of of their civilians.

joebagadonuts, I agree with you completely. It is the job of our military to defend this country. We may possibly have improved the situation in Iraq, but in doing so we have only created more terrorists. We have turned muslims that didn't hate us before into potential terrorists just because we attacked Iraq. We can go to war all over the world, but we won't even begin to address the problem with terrorism until we start to change the mindset over there that breeds hate.