If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by StorminMormon86 »

mastdark81 wrote:He put doubt in the head of the players and criticized Rg like no other last year.

No, he put a QB in his place for criticizing teammates. The teammates were done with Griffin. The reason why this team is playing better (well largely in part thanks to SM) is that they saw their head coach make the correct move at quarterback.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by riggofan »

I don't want to bash Griff or Jay on this topic anymore personally. Its kind of obvious to see what happened here the past year+. Recent comments from the players in that Keim article pretty strongly support that Gruden made the best possible move for the team.

I really like that the team put out such strong positive comments about Griffin yesterday. Whatever anyone says about him, he has been an awesome teammate, high character guy. I really hope he continues to take the high road when he leaves here. And honestly I hope he is able to resurrect his career.

I actually think the failure is less about Gruden and Griffin and more about the impossibly high expectations. Given all the picks we gave up to draft him, it was just a nearly impossible situation for a guy who had to be the #1 QB to justify the cost, but needed a lot more time and patience to develop. I'm not sure if Griff will be successful in his next gig or not, but I do think he'll have a better shot going somewhere with more tempered expectations.

Somebody signs him to a reasonable deal, maybe he's playing behind or competing with another QB. Its just a lot different from what he was facing here in DC, and there was no way to change that.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by Deadskins »

riggofan wrote:I don't want to bash Griff or Jay on this topic anymore personally. Its kind of obvious to see what happened here the past year+. Recent comments from the players in that Keim article pretty strongly support that Gruden made the best possible move for the team.

I really like that the team put out such strong positive comments about Griffin yesterday. Whatever anyone says about him, he has been an awesome teammate, high character guy. I really hope he continues to take the high road when he leaves here. And honestly I hope he is able to resurrect his career.

I actually think the failure is less about Gruden and Griffin and more about the impossibly high expectations. Given all the picks we gave up to draft him, it was just a nearly impossible situation for a guy who had to be the #1 QB to justify the cost, but needed a lot more time and patience to develop. I'm not sure if Griff will be successful in his next gig or not, but I do think he'll have a better shot going somewhere with more tempered expectations.

Somebody signs him to a reasonable deal, maybe he's playing behind or competing with another QB. Its just a lot different from what he was facing here in DC, and there was no way to change that.

Very well said, riggo. By now, we've all heard the story about Jay sitting down with Kirk and going over game film of Tom Brady playing QB. I just don't believe he ever did anything like that with RGIII. I hope a coach does that for him in his next gig. It certainly has been great for Kirk's game.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by markshark84 »

mastdark81 wrote:Cant give him credit for something he CREATED. He put doubt in the head of the players and criticized Rg like no other last year. A qb only have the power the coach can give him. Same way a coach can only have so much power dictated by the owner.

I think he knows his qbs, figured out what he thought would work best for what he does and i give him credit for sticking for who he believed in no matter what the owner thought....

Still think we have a better team talent wise than people think. We should have never been 4-12 last year and should have sewed the division up by now with good coaching. Jay is what is record is...and its cool because it is an improvement in the right direction.


What exactly did Gruden create???

I don't think it is a huge secret that Danny boy dictated who would be the Skins QB last year due to our owner's favoritism towards RGIII. When it became VERY clear that RGIII was not the best QB on the roster, Gruden did what he could to change things --- which wasn't much as we saw RGIII start (and lose) 6 of the 7 games he played the majority in, and he continue to start him as it became PAINFULLY obvious he was a bottom 5 in the NFL QB. In fact, I was listening to a Spurrier interview on the golf channel and, although he didn't want to discuss his time with the skins (which was unique because he talked about everything else), he said that he'd only say he wasn't put in a position where he could succeed in DC. He also said that not only was he not permitted to pick the roster, the owner mandated who would start at QB specifically. And for this reason he quit after 2 seasons (although he would have been fired, but he chose to quit and walk away from $20M). This was very interesting and 100% telling of how things have been run by the franchise since Danny boy took over. It's disgusting.

Gruden did not, in any way, create the QB situation last year. That was all on Danny boy and his favoritism towards RGIII. Anyone who thinks otherwise is clearly incorrect based on every piece of evidence out there and the historical behavior of all parties involved.

As far as being 4-12 last year, I disagree. Last year we were a mess internally. It is literally impossible to win without organization, structure, and proper leadership. Literally impossible. This is the reason we haven't won since Danny boy took over outside of the Gibbs years. We were a joke last year in terms of structure and talent cannot reach potential without it. That is a fact. To think you can win under those circumstances is to not understand, not only the game of football itself, but how effective organizations are run.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by markshark84 »

OldSchool wrote:Some of the same posters who dismissed Cousins and called him RexII, Kirk Grossman, Captain Pick or one of the stupid names are dogging Gruden. They would have us believe that the Skins have made this much improvement despite Gruden. What a bunch of nonsense.

I think their criticism is in large part based on their resentment over Griffuns failure. Griffin failed despite the best efforts of the Shannys, Gruden and the rest. The two staffs that helped the afterthought Cousins improve in the shadows was unable to elevate Griffin because of Griffin and his limitations. Why is Griffin's inability to progress Gruden's problem when Gruden has done a wonderful job of helping Cousins emerge and the team with him?

In the end Gruden finally put his job on the line and committed to the Cousins because he saw the same talent and potential that Mike Shanahan saw and now all but the most stubborn fans recognize Kirk is the one. For this unpardonable offense they dog Gruden even though he has returned the Skins to relevance in only his second season as the head coach of the Skins. Gruden has proven himself an able coach this season in my eyes but his implacable critics will carp all the way to Super Bowl some seasons in the future. Say what you will Gruden's my guy.


I have to say there is traction to this. Because Kirk panned out and proved the RGIII apologists wrong, they are now targeting Gruden in an effort to say "hey, Cousins may be better than RGIII, but hey, that doesn't mean I am NOT wrong because RGIII could still be good and perhaps as good as Cousins --- but we haven't been able to make such a determination because of Gruden"...... Soooooooo DC. It's like "hey, if I am clearly not right, I'll divert and prove why I may not be wrong......". Oh how I miss DC.... not really.

This is clearly an attempt to save face.

All in all Oldschool was slammed for his opinions about Cousins, both last season and this year ----- opinions that turned out to be correct. I honestly commend him for sticking thru it throughout the seasons ups and downs. People can hate him all they want, but I give him credit for that. Not many here would have done the same. Now was he harsh on RGIII --- absolutely --- and that may have been part of it, but all in all the dude was mostly correct.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by SkinsJock »

There are some here that have never liked RG3 and some that have grown to dislike him - There are some here that have never liked Kirk Cousins and some that have grown to like him - I always liked the fact that we were fortunate enough to have a very good back up QB in Kirk Cousins even when he had an issue with not being able to stop turning the ball over - I think that as he has gained more confidence, that issue is no longer as big a concern - Kirk Cousins has become a good NFL QB that I think in time will become even better with or without Gruden

There were quite a few fans here who claimed that Griffin was done and would never play another down in the NFL, that 2012 was an aberration and not at all due to RG3 but only because of the Shanahans - If that is true, I will admit I was wrong in my estimation that RG3 could become a really good NFL QB with help - otherwise, I will continue to be stupid with those that in my estimation have been stupid about RG3

There are still some here that do not like RG3 and some that hate him - those that treated him without any respect will NEVER get any respect from me - because I can :D
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by cowboykillerzRGiii »

1. I coined Kirk Grossman 2.0, and noodle arm.
2. None of the other stuff relates to my current stance at all.
3. Just as many feel RGiii deserved the harsh criticisms he got last year, I stand by my previous criticism of Captain Kirk... He earned it.
4. Players can grow, and develop... Kirk has done just that. In the micd up I learned that the play calling to take pressure off of him, might've also handcuffed him to a degree.
5. Robert is done here.
6. How he plays for his next team is yet to be seen.. sitting all year is likely a blessing- one we couldn't afford after giving up the world to get him unfortunately.
7. There doesn't have to be a right or wrong... In fact I think most people's opinions were formed for valid reasons every which way.
8. Captain Kirk is our franchise qb, and he has shown that it is rightfully so. Regardless of Roberts skill set, Kirk is clearly the best option in this system w Jay.
9. He is not a back up. Is our starter, and has broken a handful of franchise records.. love or hate him, he has earned respect.

10. All hail Captain Kirk!!! In Scott we trust!!! SB bound!!!!

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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by SKINS#1 »

My opinion about RGIII has been and still is - He is an outstanding read/option QB as proven in 2012 and the issues for me are twofold.

He is not at his best when forced to become a drop back QB and his running talents are wasted.

He is not built to take the physical pounding required to run the read/option unless/until he learns how to protect himself.

With another team I hope he has the proper instructions and is given the time to learn the art self protection, then I think he may become a starting QB.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by Deadskins »

markshark84 wrote:
mastdark81 wrote:Cant give him credit for something he CREATED. He put doubt in the head of the players and criticized Rg like no other last year. A qb only have the power the coach can give him. Same way a coach can only have so much power dictated by the owner.

I think he knows his qbs, figured out what he thought would work best for what he does and i give him credit for sticking for who he believed in no matter what the owner thought....

Still think we have a better team talent wise than people think. We should have never been 4-12 last year and should have sewed the division up by now with good coaching. Jay is what is record is...and its cool because it is an improvement in the right direction.


What exactly did Gruden create???

I don't think it is a huge secret that Danny boy dictated who would be the Skins QB last year due to our owner's favoritism towards RGIII. When it became VERY clear that RGIII was not the best QB on the roster, Gruden did what he could to change things --- which wasn't much as we saw RGIII start (and lose) 6 of the 7 games he played the majority in, and he continue to start him as it became PAINFULLY obvious he was a bottom 5 in the NFL QB. In fact, I was listening to a Spurrier interview on the golf channel and, although he didn't want to discuss his time with the skins (which was unique because he talked about everything else), he said that he'd only say he wasn't put in a position where he could succeed in DC. He also said that not only was he not permitted to pick the roster, the owner mandated who would start at QB specifically. And for this reason he quit after 2 seasons (although he would have been fired, but he chose to quit and walk away from $20M). This was very interesting and 100% telling of how things have been run by the franchise since Danny boy took over. It's disgusting.

Gruden did not, in any way, create the QB situation last year. That was all on Danny boy and his favoritism towards RGIII. Anyone who thinks otherwise is clearly incorrect based on every piece of evidence out there and the historical behavior of all parties involved.

As far as being 4-12 last year, I disagree. Last year we were a mess internally. It is literally impossible to win without organization, structure, and proper leadership. Literally impossible. This is the reason we haven't won since Danny boy took over outside of the Gibbs years. We were a joke last year in terms of structure and talent cannot reach potential without it. That is a fact. To think you can win under those circumstances is to not understand, not only the game of football itself, but how effective organizations are run.

You seem to remember things differently than I do. I thought RGIII dislocated his ankle in week two, and that caused the change to Cousins. Then, when Kirk imploded, and threw four picks late against the Ginas, he got benched for McCoy, and didn't see the field again. Correct me if I'm wrong. :hmm:
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by markshark84 »

Deadskins wrote:
markshark84 wrote:What exactly did Gruden create???

I don't think it is a huge secret that Danny boy dictated who would be the Skins QB last year due to our owner's favoritism towards RGIII. When it became VERY clear that RGIII was not the best QB on the roster, Gruden did what he could to change things --- which wasn't much as we saw RGIII start (and lose) 6 of the 7 games he played the majority in, and he continue to start him as it became PAINFULLY obvious he was a bottom 5 in the NFL QB. In fact, I was listening to a Spurrier interview on the golf channel and, although he didn't want to discuss his time with the skins (which was unique because he talked about everything else), he said that he'd only say he wasn't put in a position where he could succeed in DC. He also said that not only was he not permitted to pick the roster, the owner mandated who would start at QB specifically. And for this reason he quit after 2 seasons (although he would have been fired, but he chose to quit and walk away from $20M). This was very interesting and 100% telling of how things have been run by the franchise since Danny boy took over. It's disgusting.

Gruden did not, in any way, create the QB situation last year. That was all on Danny boy and his favoritism towards RGIII. Anyone who thinks otherwise is clearly incorrect based on every piece of evidence out there and the historical behavior of all parties involved.

You seem to remember things differently than I do. I thought RGIII dislocated his ankle in week two, and that caused the change to Cousins. Then, when Kirk imploded, and threw four picks late against the Ginas, he got benched for McCoy, and didn't see the field again. Correct me if I'm wrong. :hmm:


I was referring to when he got benched after SF --- not after the JAX game (which was due to injury).

The way I saw it was that RGIII started, had a bad opening game vs. HOU. Fine. Then he got injured against JAX. Cousins was inconsistent, moved down 2 positions and deactivated for the season. RGIII returned from injury, was horrible and benched after 4 bad games. McCoy replaced him and was benched for RGIII (who collectively played the worst of all 3 per stats and QBR) after 2 games ---- in a move that didn't make much sense to me. RGIII, after having clearly the worst season of the 3, was named the offseason starter.

There were a ton of things that didn't make sense that year. Cousins clearly showed he could throw the ball downfield having thrown for over 250 yards in every complete game he played in. Why he was pushed to third string made absolutely no sense to me. I personally believe Danny boy was upset his little pet was benched and mandated that RGIII start as soon as McCoy had a bad game (as he did vs. STL) and thereafter that RGIII named offseason starter --- a move controlled by Danny boy. Based on RGIII's production that year and how naming him offseason starter was so clearly odd based on production that season, Danny boy forcing his hand made 100% sense to me personally.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by StorminMormon86 »

Plus, Cousins constantly maintained throughout 2014 that it was "Robert's team" and he was merely trying to win until he was healthy enough to return. He had to have been told he's still the backup no matter what. This was blatantly obvious after McCoy had won 2 games and they switched right back to Robert for the SF game.

And one thing I've wondered recently: for all this talk about how Gruden was "disrespectful" to do what he did to Griffin this year, where was all of that talk for Kirk when he did the same thing to him last year? If anything, I think this helped Kirk out. Why is it viewed in a negative light for Griffin? Couldn't this be seen as a positive? Gives him a year to step back and see the field, humbling experience, also doesn't risk another injury, keeping him on the roster would increase the odds that he would be resigned by another team next year, etc.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by mastdark81 »

[/quote]What was RGIII's record his last twenty games? 5-15. Following a full season under center.

What's Kirk Cousins' record for the last twenty games? 8-12, and six of those games were as a backup. He's .500 this season with exactly ONE WEEK working with the starters before the season opener.

Now, I don't follow the logic that Jay Gruden created the situation. RGIII was playing terrible and being given, at least ostensibly, special treatment. That would piss off any veteran.[/quote]

Gruden put doubt in everyone's head, even the media when he said "stranger things happen" when Rg3 got injured week 2 2014...then he did everything but talk about his mama in the press after the Tampa Bay game. Anyone with a brain knew he wasn't SOLD on Griffin from day 1 nor Alfred Morris. So as a player you gon go with status quo of the coach cause you want to be in favor too. It was justified for SURE on Griffin but it wasn't as if Kirk/Colt was lightening it up and winning when Griffin didn't play. As a coach if you going to roll with a guy you don't let nothing leak out as if your not 100% sold of them or the team will not be sold on him. He did the same with Kirk as well last year as saying everyone had to prove to be a "starter" in the league.

This year he said "its Kirk" team for 16 games. He's learned as a coach on how to treat the situation. What that does is EMPOWER the quarterback with his teammates. Don't let the media fool you, there are many that had supported RG3 and Colt. I know that for a fact as I've talked directly to some of the players. Players at the end of the day just care about who is playing the best and trust me their opinion can change.

Give Gruden credit for sticking to his guns this year and not wavering that's what he deserves but there's no proof of guys striking or throwing bonfires because the other guys may have started. That's media BS!
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by DarthMonk »

While we're at it ... the only beef I ever had with OS was what I saw as over-the-top bashing of Griff. OS' support of Cousins was unrivaled but even OS weakened:

I Was Wrong About Cousins
Postby OldSchool » Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:35 pm

He proved his critics right and me wrong this year and last year. I've posted about what he does well in the past but for whatever reason or reasons Kirk Cousins generates too many interceptions to play well in the NFL. Given his inability to curb the problem I don't think he can be more than a backup in the league. He has no one but himself to blame the Skins gave him every chance.

I don't think Griffin will become an effective quarterback without running but the Skins should use their draft picks on other needs and give Griffin at least another year. Perhaps even if he doesn't develop into a quality starter he can be an adequate starter for a couple more years while they address many other needs on the roster.


Ironic how two of Shanny's most vilified picks - Reed and Cousins - we don't need a TE !!! - we just picked a QB !!! - might be our two best players.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

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markshark84 wrote:The way I saw it was that RGIII started, had a bad opening game vs. HOU. Fine. Then he got injured against JAX. Cousins was inconsistent, moved down 2 positions and deactivated for the season. RGIII returned from injury, was horrible and benched after 4 bad games. McCoy replaced him and was benched for RGIII (who collectively played the worst of all 3 per stats and QBR) after 2 games ---- in a move that didn't make much sense to me.

You still have things a little messed up. McCoy played, and won, against the Pies, but then got benched for a returning RGIII against Minnesota. Then we had a bye, and then we played Tampa. This was RGIII's worst game as a pro, IMO (I know you dispute this based off QBR). He played one more game, against the 49ers. After that game, Gruden went back to McCoy for the Colts, Rams (who shut us out), and the Giants. During the Giants game, McCoy suffered a neck injury and was replaced by RGIII. RGIII's numbers for the remainder of the Giants game were respectable 18 for 27 for 237 yards and a TD. RGIII then won the next game against the Smeagols (eliminating them from the playoffs), and lost against the Pies to close out the season. RGIII was named the starter for training camp because he was the starter at the end of the season. The Danny may have had a hand in this. I think Gruden wanted Cousins all along, and sabotaged RGIII a bit to get the Danny to relent and let him start his QB choice. Turns out to have been a good decision, but I don't think he put the effort into helping RGIII succeed that he did for Kirk, either. Anyway, what's done is done, and RGIII will soon be gone, while Kirk will be our franchise QB going forward. I don't have any hard feelings about it, because the Redskins are winning, and the future with Kirk looks bright. But I still wish RGIII well (unless he goes to a division rival), and will always remember 2012 fondly.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by markshark84 »

Deadskins wrote:RGIII was named the starter for training camp because he was the starter at the end of the season. The Danny may have had a hand in this. I think Gruden wanted Cousins all along, and sabotaged RGIII a bit to get the Danny to relent and let him start his QB choice. Turns out to have been a good decision, but I don't think he put the effort into helping RGIII succeed that he did for Kirk, either. Anyway, what's done is done, and RGIII will soon be gone, while Kirk will be our franchise QB going forward. I don't have any hard feelings about it, because the Redskins are winning, and the future with Kirk looks bright. But I still wish RGIII well (unless he goes to a division rival), and will always remember 2012 fondly.


I agree with your assertion of the facts. At the end of the day, my conclusion was what you say in bold, above.
1. Danny was meddling. When Colt went down (or at least after the NYG game; or not bouncing RGIII down to the #3 prior to INDY), Danny forced Gruden (who by this point knew RGIII was a bottom 5 in the NFL QB) to play RGIII and not go back to Cousins (who was clearly better), and
2. Gruden wanted Cousins all along (well, once he realized RGIII was not good/progressing, which I think was mid 2014) --- because it was clear Cousins was a better QB.

I don't think Gruden sabotaged RGIII, personally, only because you have to be a pretty bad QB to play as badly as he did that year. However, I agree that Gruden helped Cousins this year more than he did for RGIII last year ---- HOWEVER, I think this is the case because (1) Cousins was more willing to take advice/mentoring (which is complete speculation but personally believe this based on what I have heard/read), (2) Cousins has the requisite skills to be a quality QB and therefore it is easier to coach him, and (3) RGIII had a special relationship with the owner that got in the way from an Gruden-authoritative perspective (after all, RGIII did get the last HC fired), stunting his ability to develop and Gruden's ability to objectively coach RGIII up. Basically saying, it was a two way street.

I also wish RGIII well. He is a good guy and hopefully the experience has humbled him. I personally believe humility is a precursor to success and if he truly obtained it, not only will he be a better individual for having it, he will soon be back as a QB1 in the NFL.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

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markshark84 wrote:
Deadskins wrote:RGIII was named the starter for training camp because he was the starter at the end of the season. The Danny may have had a hand in this. I think Gruden wanted Cousins all along, and sabotaged RGIII a bit to get the Danny to relent and let him start his QB choice. Turns out to have been a good decision, but I don't think he put the effort into helping RGIII succeed that he did for Kirk, either. Anyway, what's done is done, and RGIII will soon be gone, while Kirk will be our franchise QB going forward. I don't have any hard feelings about it, because the Redskins are winning, and the future with Kirk looks bright. But I still wish RGIII well (unless he goes to a division rival), and will always remember 2012 fondly.


I agree with your assertion of the facts. At the end of the day, my conclusion was what you say in bold, above.
1. Danny was meddling. When Colt went down (or at least after the NYG game; or not bouncing RGIII down to the #3 prior to INDY), Danny forced Gruden (who by this point knew RGIII was a bottom 5 in the NFL QB) to play RGIII and not go back to Cousins (who was clearly better), and
2. Gruden wanted Cousins all along (well, once he realized RGIII was not good/progressing, which I think was mid 2014) --- because it was clear Cousins was a better QB.


I don't think Gruden sabotaged RGIII, personally, only because you have to be a pretty bad QB to play as badly as he did that year. However, I agree that Gruden helped Cousins this year more than he did for RGIII last year ---- HOWEVER, I think this is the case because (1) Cousins was more willing to take advice/mentoring (which is complete speculation but personally believe this based on what I have heard/read), (2) Cousins has the requisite skills to be a quality QB and therefore it is easier to coach him, and (3) RGIII had a special relationship with the owner that got in the way from an Gruden-authoritative perspective (after all, RGIII did get the last HC fired), stunting his ability to develop and Gruden's ability to objectively coach RGIII up. Basically saying, it was a two way street.

I also wish RGIII well. He is a good guy and hopefully the experience has humbled him. I personally believe humility is a precursor to success and if he truly obtained it, not only will he be a better individual for having it, he will soon be back as a QB1 in the NFL.

I agree that Cousins was easier, and more receptive to being coached up, but I still maintain that Gruden sabotaged RGIII by both airing his deficiencies in press conferences, and with his play calling in the pre-season. He set up RGIII to fail. I think he did it so that the Danny would have to accept RGIII's demotion. I'm not saying it was wrong, because that was probably the only way he could get the Danny to back off and stay out of the way.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by PulpExposure »

StorminMormon86 wrote:And one thing I've wondered recently: for all this talk about how Gruden was "disrespectful" to do what he did to Griffin this year, where was all of that talk for Kirk when he did the same thing to him last year? If anything, I think this helped Kirk out. Why is it viewed in a negative light for Griffin? Couldn't this be seen as a positive? Gives him a year to step back and see the field, humbling experience, also doesn't risk another injury, keeping him on the roster would increase the odds that he would be resigned by another team next year, etc.


Listen, I'm glad he gave Cousins the play time to develop (and hats off to OS for his undying faith in Kirk), but I think it has to be viewed in the light of how Gruden treated both players in public to the media. Gruden gave Kirk nothing but very public support this year, even when struggling earlier in the year ("hes our QB for the year", etc.). Or blaming the wind for the interceptions against the Jets:

"Yeah I don't know. I'll have to look at the film. Like I said - also, it was little windy. But, and also, [there was] a lot of pressure on him. There's a lot of things going on pre-snap that he's got to deal with, getting the formations and protections and all that. You know last week the Jets had about 15 cover-zeroes [all-out blitzes] against Miami, so we're always looking out for those and making sure he's aware of those. They played pretty vanilla today, and I think he hurried in some throws he didn't have to, or maybe he did. But I'll have to look at the film. But overall, you hate to pin this game on Kirk."


Blaming the wind is WEAK. And hated to pin it on Kirk? I found that interesting, because last year, he absolutely destroyed RG3 in the media, basically questioning if he can even play QB at a basic level:

"Robert had some fundamental flaws," Gruden said. "His footwork was below average. He took three-step drops when he should have taken five. He took a one-step drop when he should have taken three on a couple occasions and that can't happen. He stepped up when he didn't have to step up, and he stepped into pressure. He read the wrong side of the field a couple times.

"So, from his basic performance just critiquing Robert, it's not even close to good enough to what we expect from the quarterback position."


That's a serious burn. The way he treated Kirk and RG3 in public was not exactly fair.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by SkinsJock »

The 2 things that piss me off about this ...
there are fans here that hate RG3 - how do you hate players that are a part of your team and how do you hope that they play badly so someone else can play in their place ...

that and the fact that Gruden did not treat both QBs the same - I agree that RG3 was probably hopeless to work with but as a HC you should treat all players the same - he did not
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance
Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by StorminMormon86 »

Deadskins wrote:Very well said, riggo. By now, we've all heard the story about Jay sitting down with Kirk and going over game film of Tom Brady playing QB. I just don't believe he ever did anything like that with RGIII. I hope a coach does that for him in his next gig. It certainly has been great for Kirk's game.

"Some players pointed to Gruden's demeanor and how he's been with Griffin. Last week, as the players stretched before practice, Gruden mimicked a baseball swing with a device that looks like a mini-bat mostly covered with protective cushioning. Griffin, while stretching, threw him a pitch with a football and Gruden whacked it.

"There's no animosity between him and Jay; him and Jay joke around," Hall said. "That's what makes it easy. Jay is so fun loving. There's no rubbing it in anyone's face. Those three guys have been the consummate professionals.""

There's no proof that Jay didn't do everything he could to help Robert along.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by StorminMormon86 »

PulpExposure wrote:That's a serious burn. The way he treated Kirk and RG3 in public was not exactly fair.

Yes it was overkill, but it was his response to a question asked by a reporter about Robert addressing the play of others, which probably ticked him off. He put him in his place, which was clearly needed. He definitely went overboard with it, there's no denying that. But it needed to be done.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by StorminMormon86 »

Gruden is the head coach of this TEAM. He should decide who starts and who sits. And it was clear back in February that he was given an order to start Griffin. And he did nothing but prop him him positively up until naming Kirk the starter.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by Deadskins »

StorminMormon86 wrote:There's no proof that Jay didn't do everything he could to help Robert along.


StorminMormon86 wrote:Gruden is the head coach of this TEAM. He should decide who starts and who sits. And it was clear back in February that he was given an order to start Griffin. And he did nothing but prop him him positively up until naming Kirk the starter.

You believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want. It's interesting, though, that you have no proof that Gruden was given an order to start Griffin, yet you believe that to be true, but when Pulp and I offer examples of him helping Cousins in a way he didn't with Bob, you won't accept that as a possibility.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by StorminMormon86 »

Deadskins wrote:
StorminMormon86 wrote:There's no proof that Jay didn't do everything he could to help Robert along.


StorminMormon86 wrote:Gruden is the head coach of this TEAM. He should decide who starts and who sits. And it was clear back in February that he was given an order to start Griffin. And he did nothing but prop him him positively up until naming Kirk the starter.

You believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want. It's interesting, though, that you have no proof that Gruden was given an order to start Griffin, yet you believe that to be true, but when Pulp and I offer examples of him helping Cousins in a way he didn't with Bob, you won't accept that as a possibility.

Jay on Griffin:
“Robert is a good person. He’s obviously not happy with the decision, but it’s pro football and he’s taken it like a man,” Gruden told King after the team’s NFC East-clinching win over the Eagles Saturday night. “I told him this year, ‘You’re 25 years old, and you’re going to play till you’re 38 and have a really good career.’ He’s been able to take a step back, and still compete and not bitch about it. I’m proud of him.”

"That was a really silly report that came out, that Gruden left Griffin in the game because it was personal. Anyone who thinks that was the case is someone who isn’t plugged in on what’s going on behind the scenes at Redskins Park. Yes, it was surprising to see Gruden trot his starting quarterback back out there for a fourth series, when the first three possessions were nothing short of a debacle. But it wasn’t personal, it was mandated. Jay Gruden has received clear instructions that Griffin is his quarterback, and that all Griffin needs is more work and time to become comfortable in the system.

Remember, Gruden wanted to stage an open competition for the job. But between the time of his final press conference of 2014, in December, and his first of 2015, in February, the tune had changed. Daniel Snyder and Bruce Allen aren’t ready to give up on Griffin, multiple people within the organization insist. Scot McCloughan believes that more than the quarterback situation needs fixing, so he’s going about fortifying the rest of the roster while evaluating Griffin. Allen is on record saying Griffin is a young quarterback that just needs time. Time is what Griffin is getting – even if that means going back into a game where he’s getting thrown around like a rag doll. Gruden did subject Griffin to risk of injury, but Griffin didn’t do much of anything to protect himself, either. Gruden felt like his quarterback badly needed something positive to build on, both for his confidence and for the confidence of the other offensive starters. That’s why he continued to play Griffin. Even people within the organization, who aren’t sold on Snyder and Allen’s assessments, agreed that Griffin needed work."

This was from a Mike Jones (one of the handful of reporters I trust not to post BS and stir the pot) mailbag article. I fully believe this.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/foo ... iffin-iii/
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by Deadskins »

I'm not saying Gruden doesn't like Griffin, or has any kind of vendetta against him. He just prefers to work with Cousins, and did what he needed to do to get the Danny to go along with his decision. By now, I'm sure the Danny likes Cousins just fine, especially after the whole "You like that!" thing blew up into such an NFL meme.
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Re: If not Gruden then who...if not Cousins then who?

Post by SkinsJock »

Deadskins wrote:
StorminMormon86 wrote:There's no proof that Jay didn't do everything he could to help Robert along.

Gruden is the head coach of this TEAM. He should decide who starts and who sits. it was clear back in February that he was given an order to start Griffin. He did nothing but prop him him positively up until naming Kirk the starter.
You believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want. It's interesting, though, that you have no proof that Gruden was given an order to start Griffin, yet you believe that to be true, but when Pulp and I offer examples of him helping Cousins in a way he didn't with Bob, you won't accept that as a possibility.


+ 1 that's a fair statement

I like Cousins and I am really happy (for both he and the franchise) that he has taken such great advantage of his opportunity

I was disappointed in the job Gruden did both last season & in the early parts of this year - with the offense last season and I also don't think that he treated both QBs the same - the possibility that Gruden felt Cousins might become the better QB does not make it OK to treat Griffin badly
Gruden has done a really great job in bringing Cousins along but IMO Gruden & McVay needed to loosen the reins sooner on the offense a little as Cousins has shown that he can move the offense when he really needs to + Cousins has done a great job not turning the ball over
Until recently, Snyder & Allen have made a lot of really bad decisions - nobody with any sense believes this franchise will get better under their guidance
Snyder's W/L record = 45% (80-96) - Snyder/Allen = 41% (59-84-1)
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