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Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:01 pm
by Countertrey
I think that's my point... it doesn't matter if one is destined for the HOF...
someone aint happy
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:04 pm
by SkinsJock
I'd love to have a Kirk & whomever QB controversy here like we had when we went through the Sonny, Billy and Joe T days - that would make for some interesting posts - hopefully it happens, but my money's on the "he takes the money and leaves .." deal
and, not much will change around here ...
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:07 pm
by Countertrey
SkinsJock wrote:I'd love to have a Kirk & whomever QB controversy here like we had when we went through the Sonny, Billy and Joe T days - that would make for some interesting posts - hopefully it happens, but my money's on the "he takes the money and leaves .." deal
and, not much will change around here ...
Joey T didn't enter the equation... he was... "OBTW... Theisman returned a punt today, and held for 5 FG's and 3 PAT's"
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:27 pm
by markshark84
markshark84 wrote:Deadskins wrote:Just curious, where do you get stats like that? Is there a website that you can enter a timeframe (last 3 games) and compare QBR averages over that period, or are you doing the math yourself?
Man I wish there were sites that did this stuff for me. I am fortunate that I have 3 monitors (and laptop) and can slide and swing pages to make it easier and faster. I also can do math pretty quickly in my head. I just took the qualified QBs (not including any QB that didn't play all 3 of the past games -- Hoyer, Osweiler) and averaged their QBRs over that span. I believe only Bridgewater, Newton, Palmer, and Smith (in no order) were in front of him.
Some of these can take some time, but adding these up took me about 5 mins, no more. One of the reasons I did 3 games was that I could do the averages in my head; had it been the past 5 games, it would have taken significantly longer.
I forgot to put this within my initial response, but if I reference a stat and found it on a particular website, I usually provide the link. In cases like this one, I just provide the stat since I had to run the #s myself.
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:54 pm
by mastdark81
Well why all of yall wanted Rex out of here so quickly? That's exactly who Kirk Cousins is. The same guys that think Kirk is the next Drew Brees couldn't wait until Rex was out the door.
Rex wish he did have a Pierre Garcon, Desean Jackson, Jordan Reed...he would be 5-6 too.
With a GOOD starting quarterback ladies & gentleman we are at least 7-4 at this point. Our offensive is under achieving more than the defense. With defense we really just added depth along the line, didn't add any studs aaaaand we lost Orakpo.
Offense you add one of the best offensive line coaches in the game, draft Scherrf, put Kirk in whom supposedly run the offense a smooth as a whistle and yet we still lower quarter of the league in offense. Our offense should be one of the best in the league!!
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:58 pm
by Burgundy&GoldForever
markshark84 wrote:I disagree. I have been quite impressed by the QBR and how I personally felt a QB has performed. There are certain manipulations and outliers that make the overall stat inconsistent (like any stat), but all in all, it works. After all, one of the reasons ESPN created the QBR was because of how inaccurate "passer rating" was to evaluate QB play --- and I don't think anyone can question that QBR provides better analysis.
That being said, it is not perfect. Cousins' 23.2 vs. the Pats is a good example. Had there not been 8 drops, his rating would have been far higher. It wasn't accurate to him on that particular game. But if you take his 11 games, that is the only one that I can say wasn't at least fair. And as the article states, situations were the QB doesn't throw much but is effective while relying on the run game, his QBR will be uncharacteristically high. The stat also takes into consideration a QB's ability to run more than I would like it to. As far as the minimums to qualify, that is why I don't take into consideration the "nonqualified" players. Regardless, you have to take the good with the bad and there is no other statistic that has done a better job at evaluating the overall play of a QB than QBR --- at least one that I have come across.
I also want to say that some of the criticisms in that article (published in 2011) have been addressed by the stat, in particular, situations where a QB has a 4Q CB and then the DEF gives up the game.
There are also ways to manipulate the stat itself. I like to take the pass EPA on its own to determine how well as QB is playing. That discounts the run aspect of a QB. ACT plays also provides a decent showing of the contribution by the QB.
At the end of the day, the stat isn't "garbage". Far from it. It's not perfect, but it's the best I've seen.
All stats which are used in a vacuum are garbage. When you add with complicated formulas no one can explain easily such as ESPN likes to do (See: PER) it becomes more or less useless to the average fan. Either you have to take their word for it or you have to spend a lot of time researching how they come up with their numbers only to find out exactly how flawed their system actually is. Statistics have their purpose but they need to be in context, which is impossible when all you're doing is compiling raw numbers. Ten years from now I won't remember what Cousins' QBR or passer rating was but I will remember if he leads us to the playoffs.
Ultimately I think these types of statistics are just for pundits to get into a pissing contest about which player is better. The problem is any statistic can be weighted to match a predetermined outcome. If they think Tom Brady is the best quarterback in the league they'll place an emphasis on what he does well in their formula. Ditto Aaron Rodgers or whoever else ESPN wants to suck up to.
All I want to know is: Did we win the game?
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:39 pm
by riggofan
mastdark81 wrote:Well why all of yall wanted Rex out of here so quickly? That's exactly who Kirk Cousins is. The same guys that think Kirk is the next Drew Brees couldn't wait until Rex was out the door.
Rex wish he did have a Pierre Garcon, Desean Jackson, Jordan Reed...he would be 5-6 too.
Oh yeah? Those guys would have caught all the balls v. the Pats if Rex had been throwing them? Good to know. I didn't realize Rex would have had such an impact stopping the run too. Weird that nobody thought of that.
analysis, bro.
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:39 pm
by cowboykillerzRGiii
Cousins has earned respect.. I think he is about an Eli/ Flacco type qb.. if he can get it going at the right time he can be good to great. The Lows are pretty LOW ala Eli.
His touch on the deep ball could be better, but with Djac's burners and good eye for the ball/great hands... If we can add a big sure handed Dez/ Becham/ Calvin type- then he can just huck it up. Romo doesn't seem to be all accurate deep, he just tosses it up, and has a Dez to go grab it.
Limiting the horrible mistakes will go a long way to making the other mistakes tolerable.
I didn't like HOW he got the job... But he is definitely the man for the job, and everyone is pretty much on board with him in DC.
He has yet to beat the pukes, and I think he can win over some hold outs with a "You LIKE THAT," performance, GET EM!!*
#BeatDullass
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:06 pm
by StorminMormon86
cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:I didn't like HOW he got the job...
You don't like that he EARNED the job?
Don't be fooled into this Machiavellian-esque conspiracy theory that Gruden just jumped at the chance to insert "his guy" when the time was ripe. All of last year, you know who was referred to as "Gruden's guy"? Colt McCoy. And guess who was demoted to third string and inactive last year (conveniently people forget this, like the job was handed to Cousins on a silver platter)? Kirk Cousins. Had Gruden preferred him all along, Cousins would've been inserted back into the starting job (once the season was lost). He didn't. So what does that tell me? That the new GM saw something in Cousins compared to the other two guys, and knew he was the only viable option moving forward to evaluate this team...this year. Does it not strike anyone else odd that SM talked highly of Cousins while in Seattle? I think Cousins is "SM's guy", not necessarily Gruden's, and SM knew that to properly evaluate this team, Cousins was the best QB on this roster to do so. And the fact that he never got a real fair shake as the #1 was just an added bonus. If he struggled, good...you know what you have in him. If he improved (as he has), even better. You now have a viable option moving forward to work with at the most important position on the team.
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:22 pm
by SkinsJock
Countertrey wrote:SkinsJock wrote:I'd love to have a Kirk & whomever QB controversy here like we had when we went through the Sonny, Billy and Joe T days - that would make for some interesting posts - hopefully it happens, but my money's on the "he takes the money and leaves .." deal
and, not much will change around here ...
Joey T didn't enter the equation... he was... "OBTW... Theisman returned a punt today, and held for 5 FG's and 3 PAT's"
wasn't that a fun time
I met a guy that played on the 1972 team and he got me some amazing seats at RFK for years - about 20ft away from JKC's box - i remember before a Cowboys game and I was on the puke side and standing near Ed Jones - OMG, the guy was huge
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:55 pm
by Countertrey
SkinsJock wrote: - i remember before a Cowboys game and I was on the puke side and standing near Ed Jones - OMG, the guy was huge
... are you saying he was... too tall??? LOL
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:55 am
by cowboykillerzRGiii
StorminMormon86 wrote:cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:I didn't like HOW he got the job...
You don't like that he EARNED the job?
I don't like that Gruden was brought in to work with Robert and develop him... Then gave up and put him on blast publicly. Then after the carousel last year names Robert the starter (without a clear camp comp), has Kirk invited to Jon's qb camp, praises Griffs improvements all camp, gives him the false security that it's his job to lose, then after a decent first game (statistically he was average, and woulda been a solid outing had Garçon held on to the long td pass), THEN Gruden throws RGiii to the wolves vs a rabid D line and a porous Oline featuring Willie Mofo Smith on his blind side. He was doomed from the get go that game, then unlike Kirks bad games, he doesn't give him a chance rather strips him of even back up duties.
Now, I get why... And I get that if Robert were to play at all and get hurt we are screwed. Despite the fact that it's been shown Kirk IS our best option- I think it was handled like total garbage.
Open camp comp was the only logical way to do things, and it's obvious Kirk has been his boy all along; imo of course. He has let Kirk work through his issues, and passed blame everywhere else besides on him. He even taylor's the play calling to Kirks strengths, dinks and dunks, to shadow his flaws (ints, accuracy issues on intermediate and deep routes).. where conversely he was always trying to force RGiii into longer developing plays from the pocket, instead of also playing to HIS strengths: bootlegs, roll outs, some RO etc..
Again, Kirk is the man for the job... Just didn't sit well with me how unequal the treatment has been. I know he doesn't owe Robert anything, but I kinda felt like we did for his awe inspiring Rookie effort, and the devastating injury his HC allowed to get worse and worse by not pulling him before he was eventually taken off on a cart.
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:58 am
by SkinsJock
Countertrey wrote:SkinsJock wrote: - i remember before a Cowboys game and I was on the puke side and standing near Ed Jones - OMG, the guy was huge
... are you saying he was... too tall??? LOL
I know that was the nickname but he was, too tall - just amazing
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:16 am
by StorminMormon86
cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:I don't like that Gruden was brought in to work with Robert and develop him...
Gruden was hired to coach the Washington Redskins...not coach one player.
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:19 am
by StorminMormon86
cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:has Kirk invited to Jon's qb camp
This is some of that conspiracy theory bs. Gruden had no involvement in inviting Cousins to go to the camp. And, IIRC, Cousins himself went out of his way to invite McCoy AND Griffin (as well as others) to the same camp. Morris was there with Cousins. Did Gruden have some conspiracy to send Morris to his brother's camp and not Matt Jones? Of course not.
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:46 am
by riggofan
StorminMormon86 wrote:cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:I don't like that Gruden was brought in to work with Robert and develop him...
Gruden was hired to coach the Washington Redskins...not coach one player.
Yes that would be the job of the offensive coordinator or the quarterbacks coach. Not the head coach. That's a BS criticism.
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:52 am
by Burgundy&GoldForever
riggofan wrote:StorminMormon86 wrote:cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:I don't like that Gruden was brought in to work with Robert and develop him...
Gruden was hired to coach the Washington Redskins...not coach one player.
Yes that would be the job of the offensive coordinator or the quarterbacks coach. Not the head coach. That's a BS criticism.
The audacity of a head coach expecting position coaches to do their jobs ....
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:57 am
by Deadskins
riggofan wrote:StorminMormon86 wrote:cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:I don't like that Gruden was brought in to work with Robert and develop him...
Gruden was hired to coach the Washington Redskins...not coach one player.
Yes that would be the job of the offensive coordinator or the quarterbacks coach. Not the head coach. That's a BS criticism.
It's not a BS criticism. If you don't believe that getting RGIII back on track didn't figure into Gruden's hiring, then you have to be blind to the fact that the Danny likes Bob a little bit.
Also, we didn't even hire a QB coach until this year.
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:03 am
by Burgundy&GoldForever
Deadskins wrote:riggofan wrote:StorminMormon86 wrote:Gruden was hired to coach the Washington Redskins...not coach one player.
Yes that would be the job of the offensive coordinator or the quarterbacks coach. Not the head coach. That's a BS criticism.
It's not a BS criticism. If you don't believe that getting RGIII back on track didn't figure into Gruden's hiring, then you have to be blind to the fact that the Danny likes Bob a little bit.
Of course it figured into the equation but the quarterback is one position of the twenty-five on a team. RGIII is one player of the 53 on a roster.
Here's the real question: If quarterbacks and offensive guru Mike Shanahan couldn't turn RGIII into a pocket passer what in the hell made anyone think Jay Gruden could?
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:45 am
by PulpExposure
markshark84 wrote:I forgot to put this within my initial response, but if I reference a stat and found it on a particular website, I usually provide the link. In cases like this one, I just provide the stat since I had to run the #s myself.
Just saw on
ESPN:Since Week 7, Cousins has the NFL’s best passer rating at 111.5, according to ESPN Stats & Information.
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:51 am
by StorminMormon86
Deadskins wrote:It's not a BS criticism. If you don't believe that getting RGIII back on track didn't figure into Gruden's hiring, then you have to be blind to the fact that the Danny likes Bob a little bit.
Also, we didn't even hire a QB coach until this year.
Gruden was hired to win. If he was hired to fix Griffin, he would've never benched him last year.
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:57 am
by DEHog
StorminMormon86 wrote:Deadskins wrote:It's not a BS criticism. If you don't believe that getting RGIII back on track didn't figure into Gruden's hiring, then you have to be blind to the fact that the Danny likes Bob a little bit.
Also, we didn't even hire a QB coach until this year.
Gruden was hired to win. If he was hired to fix Griffin, he would've never benched him last year.
I’m not so sure about that, I do think Gruden felt pressure to develop RG…you know that was the big question during the interview. If he didn’t, why name him the starter after the season?? I think his saving grace was SM being hired and serving as a buffer between him and Snyder.
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:59 am
by StorminMormon86
From Keim:
"When he benched Griffin for Cousins this summer, many in the locker room liked the move because it signaled that the players performing the best would play."
He was hired to win. He knew he would lose the locker room by sticking with Griffin, so he did what he needed to do.
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:07 pm
by DEHog
StorminMormon86 wrote:From Keim:
"When he benched Griffin for Cousins this summer, many in the locker room liked the move because it signaled that the players performing the best would play."
He was hired to win. He knew he would lose the locker room by sticking with Griffin, so he did what he needed to do.
So if SM was never hired everything would have gone down the same way? Snyder never interfered or influenced who played QB last year?
Re: Somebody Said Cousins Couldn't Throw Deep..
Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:10 pm
by SkinsJock
are you freaking kidding me - some of you guys are blind - rationalizing why Dan Snyder did stuff makes you look as stupid as Dan Snyder
there is no doubt at all that one of the main attributes the Redskins were looking for in their new HC was to bring in someone that could help straighten out their prized possession - certainly they also hoped he would become a good NFL HC - Jay Gruden failed at that endeavor for possibly very valid reasons but he did, that's a fact - Jay Gruden is only still here because we have Scot and a FO that made Snyder not do that
give me a break - ask yourselves the question, would Dan and Bruce have hired a potentially good HC that might not have fit whatever it was that those 2 idiots thought was good for their prized QB?