The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

riggofan wrote:Its almost like the other 21 starters made some difference in the game. Weird how that works.

Never let facts get in the way of a good narrative.

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:Quite the contrary, it seems, the only fan enjoying themselves on here is you.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Might be the posh country club accent.

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:I don't enjoy seeing Kirk fail, but like Griffin , I refuse to blame the players around him for HIS poor play.

Such a BS straw man. Nobody here including myself has said that Cousins played anything but poorly on Sunday. He was inaccurate all day and the first INT was his worst throw of the year. He either fixes his issues or he'll be gone. Feel better?

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:

riggofan wrote:Its almost like the other 21 starters made some difference in the game. Weird how that works.

Never let facts get in the way of a good narrative.

I know it man. Its probably just Jason Reid and his whole "agenda".

Just so tired of talking about the QBs. Its such a lame DC thing that anytime we lose a game all we can talk about is the QB.

Griffin is done. McCoy is a backup. Cousins honestly is probably not the QB we're looking for. The only thing left to say about the QBs really is let's see how this year plays out.

There were so many other things from that Jets game that I'm interested in hearing about. I have no idea how LeRib played at center. How did Nsekhe do? Why did the D allow so many rushing yards again? Why couldn't we run the ball?

I taped and watched it again last night - 40 pass vrs 16 rushes (11 Morris and 5 Thompson)

I thought there were many good things to take from the game

riggofan wrote:Just so tired of talking about the QBs. Its such a lame DC thing that anytime we lose a game all we can talk about is the QB.

Griffin is done. McCoy is a backup. Cousins honestly is probably not the QB we're looking for. The only thing left to say about the QBs really is let's see how this year plays out.

There were so many other things from that Jets game that I'm interested in hearing about. I have no idea how LeRib played at center. How did Nsekhe do? Why did the D allow so many rushing yards again? Why couldn't we run the ball?

The Reader's Digest version would be: LeRibeus actually played pretty damn well. Better than Lichtensteiger has played all year. Nsekhe was outstanding. He didn't give up a sack and I don't recall his even allowing a hurry. Trent Murphy in run defense is a liability. Teams just keep running right at him because he can't stop it. Poor tackling is a big problem. Goldson is playing "two deep" so he's never in position to stop running plays. The line (this version of it) hasn't played together long enough to have a cup of coffee. They don't know how to work together or to read each other. Even cows all stampede in the same direction. This line, not so much. You really need all five starting linemen to play together for a full season to know the idiosyncrasies of the player or players next to you. I also think that the blocking scheme was simplified to keep Cousins from getting killed.

I do know that those "in the know" said that the line held up pretty well in pass protection all game, but did not do so well in the run blocking, which stunted our run game.

riggofan wrote:

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:I really don't see any of those guys making the qb look any better then he did... A ball in the dirt is a ball in the dirt.. a perfect pass to the wrong team is still that.

Had Reed or Jax been running free down field, no I don't think Kirk magically hits them in stride, sorry.

Did anybody watch the Eagles v. Giants last night? Where Bradford threw THREE INTs and only one TD? But his team somehow won 27-7?

Its almost like the other 21 starters made some difference in the game. Weird how that works.

Peyton also threw three 3 picks. I forgot where I heard it or who said it, but it was said that when Manning, Rodgers, and Brady don’t play well their team don’t play well…THEY DON’T!

StorminMormon86 wrote:I do know that those "in the know" said that the line held up pretty well in pass protection all game, but did not do so well in the run blocking, which stunted our run game.

It definitely looked that way. My question on the running game: was the run blocking poor or was that actually a Cousins side effect? i.e. They weren't afraid of him in the passing game so they were able to stack the box?

To be fair, the Jets have an incredible secondary. Not hard to see why they'd be willing to dare Cousins to throw at Revis and Cromartie.

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:LeRibeus actually played pretty damn well. Better than Lichtensteiger has played all year.

Good to hear. Anybody else agree? I thought it was hard to judge them because we couldn't run the ball. But I didn't see a bunch of penalties and for the most part they kept the pressure off Cousins.

LeRib is 6'3" 312 lbs. Lichtensteiger 6'2" 295. I would love to see the line continue to get bigger and younger (and hopefully better).

DEHog wrote:Peyton also threw three 3 picks. I forgot where I heard it or who said it, but it was said that when Manning, Rodgers, and Brady don’t play well their team don’t play well…THEY DON’T!

Peyton, Rodgers, and Brady have EARNED that right. Kirk hasn't.

There are TONS of excuses (and I am not saying you are making any, this is more a tangent) that can be made for why Kirk didn't play well against NYJ: he was facing the (thus far) undisputed #1 DEF in the NFL, he only had 2 of his starting OLs both in their first 2 years, he is missing his 3 biggest playmakers, NYJ was coming off a bye, our DEF couldn't stop their OFF, there was no run game, etc. etc. etc. etc.

That being said, there will ALWAYS be excuses --- they are reserved especially for the losers. But none of these excuses matter -- Kirk had opportunities and didn't throw the ball well. He was inaccurate. He threw 2 picks -- both of which were inexcusable. We only scored 13 points as an OFF unit; something that is become commonplace for this offense.

Kirk could have played better. If he did, would we have won? Almost certainly not. They are a much better team and it showed. However, we need to have standards for Kirk. This game wasn't winnable, IMHO, but Kirk's play made it worse. His performance were below the standards necessary to warrant being the starter. Should he be benched ---- No. But if this continues, it should be raised.

markshark84 wrote:Should he be benched ---- No. But if this continues, it should be raised.

I'm pretty sure everyone is in agreement with this.

riggofan wrote:

Burgundy&GoldForever wrote:LeRibeus actually played pretty damn well. Better than Lichtensteiger has played all year.

Good to hear. Anybody else agree? I thought it was hard to judge them because we couldn't run the ball. But I didn't see a bunch of penalties and for the most part they kept the pressure off Cousins.

LeRib is 6'3" 312 lbs. Lichtensteiger 6'2" 295. I would love to see the line continue to get bigger and younger (and hopefully better).

I am not sure how anyone can truly say our OL had an even average game. Our pro-bowl RB averaged 1.9 ypc. I personally believe some of this is the playcalling, but our OL didn't play well. As far as the pass pro -- Kirk isn't going to get sacked often regardless of the protection. I don't judge our OL based on the sacks-hurries-QBHits stats.

All in all, I didn't consider it a very good game for them in any respect.

StorminMormon86 wrote:

markshark84 wrote:Should he be benched ---- No. But if this continues, it should be raised.

I'm pretty sure everyone is in agreement with this.

I know a couple people on this board who sure aren't......

markshark84 wrote:

DEHog wrote:Peyton also threw three 3 picks. I forgot where I heard it or who said it, but it was said that when Manning, Rodgers, and Brady don’t play well their team don’t play well…THEY DON’T!

Peyton, Rodgers, and Brady have EARNED that right. Kirk hasn't.

There are TONS of excuses (and I am not saying you are making any, this is more a tangent) that can be made for why Kirk didn't play well against NYJ: he was facing the (thus far) undisputed #1 DEF in the NFL, he only had 2 of his starting OLs both in their first 2 years, he is missing his 3 biggest playmakers, NYJ was coming off a bye, our DEF couldn't stop their OFF, there was no run game, etc. etc. etc. etc.

That being said, there will ALWAYS be excuses --- they are reserved especially for the losers. But none of these excuses matter -- Kirk had opportunities and didn't throw the ball well. He was inaccurate. He threw 2 picks -- both of which were inexcusable. We only scored 13 points as an OFF unit; something that is become commonplace for this offense.

Kirk could have played better. If he did, would we have won? Almost certainly not. They are a much better team and it showed. However, we need to have standards for Kirk. This game wasn't winnable, IMHO, but Kirk's play made it worse. His performance were below the standards necessary to warrant being the starter. Should he be benched ---- No. But if this continues, it should be raised.

That was said tongue in cheek...RGIII is the one who said it last year.

markshark84 wrote:I am not sure how anyone can truly say our OL had an even average game. Our pro-bowl RB averaged 1.9 ypc. I personally believe some of this is the playcalling, but our OL didn't play well. As far as the pass pro -- Kirk isn't going to get sacked often regardless of the protection. I don't judge our OL based on the sacks-hurries-QBHits stats.

All in all, I didn't consider it a very good game for them in any respect.

You can't judge line play on the rushing game when the rushing game is running the exact same play on every 1st down. The offense is so predictable I can write it out here:

1st down: Off Tackle Left
2nd Down: 5 yard pass, usually incomplete.
3rd Down: Everyone run one yard short of the 1st down marker.

I understand the points you guys are making regarding the o-line. For me going into that game, I was just remembering the last time Trent was out - preseason v. Detroit where I was literally concerned Griffin was going to die. Only now we've got Trent, Laovao AND Lichtensteiger out. So I was really expecting a debacle of similarly epic proportion. I don't think we saw that. They were just completely stymied trying to run the ball and it didn't seem to matter who was running it or in what direction.

the ineffective run game was not so much because of the O line but more because of the game planning - the lack of execution in the passing game hurt - the new guys on the O line played well - anyone would miss having a Trent Williams but even if he'd been in there with the other 2 linemen, the run game was not going to work

the defense took away the run early and dared the Redskins to pass - not having a passing game mean't we had no run game and they only tried 16 run plays the whole game

markshark84 wrote:Kirk could have played better. If he did, would we have won? Almost certainly not. They are a much better team and it showed. However, we need to have standards for Kirk. This game wasn't winnable, IMHO, but Kirk's play made it worse.

I don't know how you can say the game wasn't winnable. If Kirk doesn't throw those picks, and hits even a few receivers in stride, we could have easily come away with a W. As it was, we reduced the lead to two scores, missed an easy onside kick recovery, and committed a penalty (I thought it was a dubious running into the kicker call), that kept us from possibly making it one score with several minutes left. I understand the Jets took their foot off the gas at the end, but it's not like a win was out of the question with some decent QB play.

SkinsJock wrote:the ineffective run game was not so much because of the O line but more because of the game planning - the lack of execution in the passing game hurt - the new guys on the O line played well - anyone would miss having a Trent Williams but even if he'd been in there with the other 2 linemen, the run game was not going to work

the defense took away the run early and dared the Redskins to pass - not having a passing game mean't we had no run game and they only tried 16 run plays the whole game

Are you freaking serious?????

No seriously, are you serious? I agree pretty much completely with your analysis.

I agree with riggofan - we are seeing a very different Redskins unit than we are used to and there are many players that are playing much better than we expected - the Jets are very good but every game we have played we might have won if we had just executed as well as we are capable

I really think the coaches are not getting enough out of the run game and the short passing game - Cousins is being asked to play in a way that he's not comfortable - we are not that good yet but we are a much improved group over recent years

Deadskins wrote:

markshark84 wrote:Kirk could have played better. If he did, would we have won? Almost certainly not. They are a much better team and it showed. However, we need to have standards for Kirk. This game wasn't winnable, IMHO, but Kirk's play made it worse.

I don't know how you can say the game wasn't winnable. If Kirk doesn't throw those picks, and hits even a few receivers in stride, we could have easily come away with a W. As it was, we reduced the lead to two scores, missed an easy onside kick recovery, and committed a penalty (I thought it was a dubious running into the kicker call), that kept us from possibly making it one score with several minutes left. I understand the Jets took their foot off the gas at the end, but it's not like a win was out of the question with some decent QB play.

So I guess based on what you are saying, then yes, if we played completely mistake-free on offense, defense, and special teams (something we have failed to do since perhaps the 90s) then we COULD have potentially won.

- Our DEF literally couldn't stop their offense. At all. 1 punt on 11 meaningful drives. The rest were either TOs (in the 1st half) or scores.
- The onsides kick would have been nice, but we missed it --- just like most don't covert on less than 15% of onsides kicks. We failed to execute --- something all losing teams have in common.
- The 1st INT didn't kill us by any means. It resulted in a TD, but they started at their own 30 yard line or something. The NYJ OFF scored that. The second one was a killer.
- Not sure how that running into the kicker would have immediately resulted in a 1 score game. We still would have had to score twice with 2 mins left against a team we couldn't stop and get a on-sides kick that we initially failed to get, in addition to stopping an offense we failed to do all game (oh, except for once).
- We averaged 2.1 ypc rushing.

Even if you spotted them 7, they scored 27. We haven't scored that all season ---- and most definetely not against the #1 DEF in the NFL.

This is by no means a endorsement of Kirk. He played horribly and I don't think he (or any of our other QBs) could have won playing at his (their) best.

Lets get real here --- I honestly would have expected something more reasonable from you, honestly. The NYJs are a better team. They played better on Sunday. The only way we are winning that game is in a shootout and Kirk & our surgicaly repaired OFF is incapable of doing so.

The only reason im not calling for the benching of Kirk is because the team is behind him. I still believe with a healthy Griffin behind ctr we would do much better. Especially with the talent improved overall on the roster.

HEROHAMO wrote:The only reason im not calling for the benching of Kirk is because the team is behind him. I still believe with a healthy Griffin behind ctr we would do much better. Especially with the talent improved overall on the roster.

Griffin would've got killed against that Jets defense.

I wonder how it would have turned out had Griffin played. To arbitrarily say that a different QB or had this QB played different they would have won is not that simple. You heard Gruden say that they prepared for a bunch of “zero blitzes” but that the Jets didn’t do that…in fact they were pretty “vanilla” he said. I think the Jets sat back and committed to stopping the run first and in light of how Kirk and the Skins have played (along with no Reed or Jackson) played a lot of zone to confused and dare Cousins to beat them. Had Griffin played I bet we’d had seen them get after him, trying to make him uncomfortable in the pocket and make quick reads since that’s the book on Griffin. Translation...Gruden got outcoached!