The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

riggofan wrote: ... I don't want to see Cousins handed the job any more than I want to see RGIII handed the job. Both of these guys have shown weaknesses over the past three years. Let them come to OTAs and training camp and prove which QB deserves to start.

and I totally agree with that - we need the best they can be from both these guys ...

I also think that as far as Griffin is concerned, it will be fairly obvious, fairly quickly, if he's going to be worth the effort ...

I hope that both get a fair shot at it and both are really trying hard to show they deserve the job

I'd even try and simulate that situation that Griffin had in the Tampa game where the defense was in the cover 2 and I think all 5 receivers were open and Griffin did not see it and took off running - if he has learned anything from the mistakes he made he has to know his ability to see the open receivers has got to be better or he's not making it as an NFL QB

Griffin has the arm for both the long and short passing game but I am not sure he's as confident in his reads as he needs to be ...

he needs to be more confident in himself and the players he has on the field

I'm in agreement with ey, I think the whole "open competition" rhetoric is a sham, and that it's Griffin's job to lose. Because as it stands right now, there is no way Griffin would be able to beat out Cousins or McCoy for the starting job. It wouldn't even be close, IMO.

While I don’t agree with making decisions based on the “potential’ of an injury, I get Prowl’s point. By my count RG has been injured 4 times….Concussion knocked him out of the Atlanta game, Sprained MCL/ACL in the Baltimore game, Torn ACL/MCL in the Seattle game and then the ankle last year in the Jacksonville game. His lack of pocket awareness and his inability to protect himself has led to some of the most hardest and unorthodox hits I’ve ever seen a QB take. By no means are those hits ‘irrelevant”!! The argument that his fame is not built to take these types of hits is also irrelevant…I’ve got news for you…no one’s frame is built to handle the punishment of playing football. I coach high school ball and man some of the collisions make me cringe!! I held my breath during the years my son played QB in high school!!

The injury concerns are not what concerns me with Griffin, it's the lack of pocket awareness that could lead to a huge injury that concerns me.

StorminMormon86 wrote:I'm in agreement with ey, I think the whole "open competition" rhetoric is a sham, and that it's Griffin's job to lose. Because as it stands right now, there is no way Griffin would be able to beat out Cousins or McCoy for the starting job. It wouldn't even be close, IMO.

Oh, I think he might be able to beat out McCoy, seeing as he's not currently under contract to the team for next year.

I think most of you guys have forgot my initial point.

I initially pointed at if its a close competition how Griffin will win the spot but shouldnt. The injury talk was my primary point why.

So... if the 2 are close skill wise going through camp, i stand by saying prior injury history and future risk should play a factor.

The QB position is different than all others. It requires continuity way more. I can play an injury prone OLB and if he gets hurt plug in my next best guy and only really miss the takent gap. With QB, talent gap (which im saying both are roughly equal in my scenario anyways) is a much smaller factor because practice and reps throughout the year are of greater importance.

Prowl33 wrote:I think most of you guys have forgot my initial point.

I initially pointed at if its a close competition how Griffin will win the spot but shouldnt. The injury talk was my primary point why.

So... if the 2 are close skill wise going through camp, i stand by saying prior injury history and future risk should play a factor.

The QB position is different than all others. It requires continuity way more. I can play an injury prone OLB and if he gets hurt plug in my next best guy and only really miss the takent gap. With QB, talent gap (which im saying both are roughly equal in my scenario anyways) is a much smaller factor because practice and reps throughout the year are of greater importance.

meh. If RGIII is going to be the starting QB and you're worried about his health, then do what every other successful team in the league does and protect your quarterback. Make beefing up the offensive line a priority. Limit the amount you're asking him to run. And coach him up to get rid of the ball more quickly - he takes too many sacks. He's obviously not the 245 lb Cam Newton quarterback, but he's bigger than Russell Wilson.

I get what you're saying, but why should injury risk outweigh any other part of a player's history. How about Cousins' history? How do we know he won't perform well in training camp then melt down after the first regular season INT he throws?

I don't buy it - Jay, Matt and Sean are going to be evaluating the QBs and IMO they are going to give the starting job to whomever makes the plays and fits the offense that they are going to run here - not Robert Griffin's offense or Dan Snyder's offense

all this BS about injuries and what has happened is not relevant to that decision

they are going to be making a decision based on what they think is the best QB for this franchise going forward

it does not matter what we gave up for Griffin, he's only going to win the starting job if he can convince these guys (not Snyder or Allen) that he's a much better QB than we've seen so far - I'm not sure he can do that but I want to see him be given a chance

so trot out your stats and have fun with your whining about how bad we have been and how we have no chance here ...

I believe that if Scot and Jay are going to make things work right here they just need to be given free rein to make all the decisions

DEHog wrote:Let me just respond to a few of your comments that stood out to me…

Kirk did not take as many sacks but sure did throw up two to three times more interceptions pointing back to the Oline.

Much easier to coach the INT’s than the issues that RG has.

We already have proof that Griff can be good.

It should read… “We already have proof that Griff can be good in the read option”…we have zero proof that RG can develop into a functional traditional NFL QB…he is currently trending in the opposite direction.

I assure you had Peyton Manning, Brady or any other QB been thrown into the same situation it probably would have been the same.

Couldn’t disagree more, both have had to do it with backups scattered across the line in recent years.

Manning and Brady all have great leadership behind them. Lucky for Griff he has a very strong family and has instilled great character into him.

I keep seeing this an a argument to keep him…what does it have to do with the ability to physically play QB in the NFL...Tim Tebow comes from a great family too…JS

I am confident that when we get a good Oline together this offense will start soaring again. Griffin should be back to 100 percent of his form like his rookie year.

Are we going back to the read option??

Griffins rookie year he had no problem passing the ball he was accurate and had a very good passer rating. Yes it was in the read option but he showed that he can pass the ball with accuracy. Just look at the Saints game he made several plays in which he surveyed the field.
I believe its his confidence that has taken a huge hit along with the injuries that has hampered his play as of late. I believe he needs full support behind like Manning always has had. That means GM, coach, staff and fans.


My comment on leadership refers to Manning and Brady having a legitimate General Manager and head coach. Manning had Bill Polian who has built many SuperBowl bound teams. Polian built up the Buffalo Bills of the 90s and built up that Colts team. Manning of course has Bellicheck who is arguably one of the greatest football minds. That is what I meant about leadership behind them.

Well we will just have to agree to disagree. I believe Griffin is the solution but not an easy solution. We have to build support around him and develop him. Just like Brett Farve was developed with Ron Wolf, Steve Marriucchi and Holmgren. Same as Montana and Bill Walsh. Bellicheck n Brady.
Manning is the one player I believe who didnt really need a great coach to succeed as a QB because he was the franchise and had more power then any coach would have had. Not to say Dungy wasnt a great coach.

2012 seems light years away; you’re talking about a season in which he ran a different offense with a different coach. Not sure how much read progression he had to do, receivers ran wide open because of the threat of the read option. Regardless it means nothing headed into this season. All the support in the world is not going to change the fact that he couldn’t play the position in 2013/2014 it’s going to take coaching and hard work on his part…and we are talking about a coach who was hire to fix him, only to give up on him half way through the season. Sadly I believe 2012 will end up being the best season of his career, but look on the bright side…its going to make one heck of a 30 for 30!!

this is a piece from ESPN.com ... J. Keim (I think)

"For Griffin to improve, he must show better instincts and accuracy from the pocket and, if on the move, make more big plays. (Griffin's rating on plays outside the pocket was 60.5.) The real key will be to strengthen other parts of the team so the Redskins can compensate for any deficiencies at this position -- or simply to provide more help. A second year in Jay Gruden’s system, plus having an experienced quarterbacks coach in Matt Cavanaugh, can’t hurt. Though there is concern in the organization at almost every level that Griffin will ever fully develop, his talent will tempt them into another season. It's tough to discard someone with his ability a year too early."

I agree any QB competition that involves Griffins will be a sham. If they traded Griffin and had McCoy and Cousins compete I'd believe it but if Griffin is involved I'm going to believe that Dan Snyder has his thumb on the scale.

StorminMormon86 wrote:I'm in agreement with ey, I think the whole "open competition" rhetoric is a sham, and that it's Griffin's job to lose. Because as it stands right now, there is no way Griffin would be able to beat out Cousins or McCoy for the starting job. It wouldn't even be close, IMO.

I agree with you Griffin couldn't compete with McCoy or Coursins at least not in 2014. In 2014 Griffin looked utterly clueless compared to McCoy and Cousins. Is Griffin spending the winter studying film and is going to come out mentally quicker like Cousins in 2015 or will it be the same old Griffin? If Griffin hasn't worked like a dog during the off season to speed uphis recognition than I don't think it's not worth investing any 2015 snaps on him. This will be his fourth season so if he can't recognize defenses and almost instantly know what to do than 1 of the 2 QBs that do process quicker should be on the field and Griffin should be on an airplane to another franchise in exchange for a OL, defensive player or draft choice.

OldSchool wrote:I agree any QB competition that involves Griffins will be a sham. If they traded Griffin and had McCoy and Cousins compete I'd believe it but if Griffin is involved I'm going to believe that Dan Snyder has his thumb on the scale.

So basically you only believe its an open competition if the coach chooses the player that you like. lol.

Here's my question. Does Jay Gruden have a better chance of keeping his job by a) playing the QB that Dan Snyder tells him to or b) playing the QB that he believes gives the team the best chance to win?

And if you answered a) then just imagine what happens in November when Gruden is out there leaking that "hey sorry we're 1-8 right now but Snyder completely overrode his GM and his coach and forced us to play Griffin against our wishes".

Its just a ridiculously stupid theory.

riggofan wrote:

OldSchool wrote:I agree any QB competition that involves Griffins will be a sham. If they traded Griffin and had McCoy and Cousins compete I'd believe it but if Griffin is involved I'm going to believe that Dan Snyder has his thumb on the scale.

So basically you only believe its an open competition if the coach chooses the player that you like. lol.

Here's my question. Does Jay Gruden have a better chance of keeping his job by a) playing the QB that Dan Snyder tells him to or b) playing the QB that he believes gives the team the best chance to win?

And if you answered a) then just imagine what happens in November when Gruden is out there leaking that "hey sorry we're 1-8 right now but Snyder completely overrode his GM and his coach and forced us to play Griffin against our wishes".

Its just a ridiculously stupid theory.

When has that ever stopped anyone? It's an open comp if anyone but Griffin wins, a sham if he does. If it's close and Griffin wins, its automatically the wrong choice because he'll definitely get injured; who knew you got a crystal ball when you logged in to this forum? Basically, Griffin is somehow a bust and anyone who doesn't flagellate themselves to this truth is a "Griffin fanboy". I mean with this kind of open minded reasoning, it's a wonder that anyone could call 'Skins fans unreasonable.

Here's my question. Does Jay Gruden have a better chance of keeping his job by a) playing the QB that Dan Snyder tells him to or b) playing the QB that he believes gives the team the best chance to win?

That’s a interesting questing…many think that is the very reason that Shanahan got fired??? I would say the answer is obvious but it never is with Dan Snyder.

And if you answered a) then just imagine what happens in November when Gruden is out there leaking that "hey sorry we're 1-8 right now but Snyder completely overrode his GM and his coach and forced us to play Griffin against our wishes".

I would love for that to happen, but coaches just don’t do that…because they want to coach again!!

DEHog wrote:

Here's my question. Does Jay Gruden have a better chance of keeping his job by a) playing the QB that Dan Snyder tells him to or b) playing the QB that he believes gives the team the best chance to win?

That’s a interesting questing…many think that is the very reason that Shanahan got fired??? I would say the answer is obvious but it never is with Dan Snyder.

And if you answered a) then just imagine what happens in November when Gruden is out there leaking that "hey sorry we're 1-8 right now but Snyder completely overrode his GM and his coach and forced us to play Griffin against our wishes".

I would love for that to happen, but coaches just don’t do that…because they want to coach again!!

It is an interesting question. Do what the owner wants and lose and you still lose your job. Go against the owner if you like the other QB, and win, odds are he will keep his mouth shut and you live to coach another day.

Prowl33 wrote: .. It is an interesting question. Do what the owner wants and lose and you still lose your job. Go against the owner if you like the other QB, and win, odds are he will keep his mouth shut and you live to coach another day.

The way this franchise gets better is that everyone, from the GM down to the players, is accountable - this franchise is hopefully now in the hands of the NFL guys - we see improvement and you keep your job - if we don't see improvement, it will not matter if 'you have pictures', you're outa here!

Scot and Jay just need to show that what they're doing is helping this franchise get better whether they play the players that Snyder and Allen want them to or not

SkinsJock wrote:

Prowl33 wrote: .. It is an interesting question. Do what the owner wants and lose and you still lose your job. Go against the owner if you like the other QB, and win, odds are he will keep his mouth shut and you live to coach another day.

The way this franchise gets better is that everyone, from the GM down to the players, is accountable - this franchise is hopefully now in the hands of the NFL guys - we see improvement and you keep your job - if we don't see improvement, it will not matter if 'you have pictures', you're outa here!

Scot and Jay just need to show that what they're doing is helping this franchise get better whether they play the players that Snyder and Allen want them to or not

I tend to believe that Gruden will keep his job is the Redskins win a few more games...show improvement. Yes, it is impossible to under-estimate Dan Snyder -- the worst owner since George Preston Marshall -- but I'm hoping that Snyder wants to win. Maybe Snyder felt humiliated as he sat beside Joe Gibbs watching the Redskins play like the memorable 1960 team?

Thanks welch - hopefully the really low moments that we've had here recently, have helped Snyder see the light ...

I was not here for those seasons in the 6os - were there at least some good players here, like we have now?

a couple of games last season were just unbelievable and I really hope that sitting with Gibbs for that horror show woke him up ...

DEHog wrote:2012 seems light years away; you’re talking about a season in which he ran a different offense with a different coach. Not sure how much read progression he had to do, receivers ran wide open because of the threat of the read option. Regardless it means nothing headed into this season. All the support in the world is not going to change the fact that he couldn’t play the position in 2013/2014 it’s going to take coaching and hard work on his part…and we are talking about a coach who was hire to fix him, only to give up on him half way through the season. Sadly I believe 2012 will end up being the best season of his career, but look on the bright side…its going to make one heck of a 30 for 30!!

Gruden giving up on Griffin halfway through a season is a reflection of his character as well. 1st year head coach giving up on the franchise player halfway through the season? How does that give me confidence in Jay. So far Jay has shown little proof that he knows what he is doing as a head coach. Surely he and Bruce have not drafted well either. Not one pro bowler or a starting caliber player for that matter.

Snyder is the main reason for all this mess. We all know this.

Well you must favor Kirk over Griffin then. Thats fine. Kirk is a good Qb in my opinion. But nothing is going to change unless we have a good Oline. No QB is going to have confidence standing behind the terrible Oline that was the Redskins of 2014.

Can we simply "make a return?" and get our three #1's and a #2 back ????

Clearly we got defective merchandise ... a complete turkey with a 10 cent head.

HEROHAMO wrote:Gruden giving up on Griffin halfway through a season is a reflection of his character as well. 1st year head coach giving up on the franchise player halfway through the season? How does that give me confidence in Jay. So far Jay has shown little proof that he knows what he is doing as a head coach. Surely he and Bruce have not drafted well either. Not one pro bowler or a starting caliber player for that matter.

Really? We're going to judge Gruden's draft after less than a year? And complain that he didn't get a rookie pro bowler out of a draft where he didn't even have a first round pick?? Come on, man. I don't know who was ultimately responsible for the 2014 draft, but they got a starter (Breeland) in the fourth round and Trent Murphy was starting out of the second round. I think we'll probably see Spencer Long and/or Moses starting before this year as well, so I'm not really sure how much we can honestly bitch about that draft.

And how is cutting bait on Griffin a "reflection of his character"? If you're talking about honesty, then sure. It seems pretty obvious that Mike Shanahan came to some of the same conclusions about Griffin. I would much rather have Jay Gruden, an experienced football coach and former quarterback, be honest about the QB situation. If he can fix RGIII then great, please do. If Cousins or McCoy is the QB that gives us the best chance to win right now, then the head football coach needs to play that guy.

Look at Cleveland. Hoyer wasn't great, but nobody on that coaching staff believed Manziel should start ahead of him. The HC caved in to pressure from ownership to start the first round pick, and it was a complete joke. We need a coach with the "character" to do what he feels is best for the entire football team.

HEROHAMO wrote:Gruden giving up on Griffin halfway through a season is a reflection of his character as well. 1st year head coach giving up on the franchise player halfway through the season? How does that give me confidence in Jay. So far Jay has shown little proof that he knows what he is doing as a head coach. Surely he and Bruce have not drafted well either. Not one pro bowler or a starting caliber player for that matter.

Snyder is the main reason for all this mess. We all know this.

Well you must favor Kirk over Griffin then. Thats fine. Kirk is a good Qb in my opinion. But nothing is going to change unless we have a good Oline. No QB is going to have confidence standing behind the terrible Oline that was the Redskins of 2014.

Really??? Did you see the way RGIII was playing??? His QBR was in the SINGLE DIGITS. It was embarassing to watch RGIII out there. Now --- there are a TON of reasons to question Jay's ability to coach, but pulling RGIII midway thru the year is not one of them. The very fact Jay made the change shows that he isn't concerned with Danny boy's influence as much as our ex-GM.....

And I didn't think Jay had any say in the draft. And he's been here one year --- the fact a pro-bowler hasn't been drafted in his one year here isn't surprising.....

I agree with the last statement, but IMHO even with a good line, in Jay's offense, RGIII will not thrive. He is not comfortable playing in a pro style offense and takes incredibly too long to complete his progressions. I don't think things like that (ie, sorting thru progressions) change as drastically as they need to after a season or 2 in a certain system.