The-Hogs.net - Washington Football Discussion, Redskins to Commanders Era

DarthMonk wrote:

jmooney wrote:I agree to the BPA philosophy to a point but, what if:

at 5, it just may be this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS9Hq4bdFY0. Brandon Scherff OT, Iowa

Would you guys pull the trigger even though we have Trent? If yes, which one starts on the right side?

I mean, this dude is an animal. I think Williams has better feet but, Scherff may be nastier.

If Scherff is truly the BPA when we pick at 5 then he is a must pick.

He can play LG, RG, or RT since we have Trent as an Pro Bowl caliber LT.

He fits the mold of a big man who can dominate.

Exactly.

You have to figure though picking at #5 that you're going to have several possible picks that you have graded the same. It might not be a question strictly of BPA at that pick like it would be in the second or third round.

I'm really curious what the team will do there. The defense needs help, needs more talent no question. I can see the argument though for going offensive line. We have so much invested in RGIII, it makes sense to get him more help and see if he can be more effective with better protection.

DEHog wrote:^Isn't that what I said??

If you did it was confusing. You said "needs play a part". True. But then you wrote "BPA is something GM's like to say and players like to hear." Huh?

If you understand that team needs play a part in determining BPA grades, why insinuate that BPA is BS?

riggofan wrote:

DEHog wrote:^Isn't that what I said??

If you did it was confusing. You said "needs play a part". True. But then you wrote "BPA is something GM's like to say and players like to hear." Huh?

If you understand that team needs play a part in determining BPA grades, why insinuate that BPA is BS?

Well the discussion is on drafting BPA vs. need. My opinion is based on how SM answered the question directly when asked on whether he drafts for need or BPA.

“I’m never under the assumption that you draft for need,” McCloughan said. “You draft the best available football player on the board.

So is it need or BPA or both, according the SM its BPA, he said nothing about need being a part of BPA? Which you and I agree is a part of it…

DEHog wrote:

riggofan wrote:

DEHog wrote:^Isn't that what I said??

If you did it was confusing. You said "needs play a part". True. But then you wrote "BPA is something GM's like to say and players like to hear." Huh?

If you understand that team needs play a part in determining BPA grades, why insinuate that BPA is BS?

Well the discussion is on drafting BPA vs. need. My opinion is based on how SM answered the question directly when asked on whether he drafts for need or BPA.

“I’m never under the assumption that you draft for need,” McCloughan said. “You draft the best available football player on the board.

So is it need or BPA or both, according the SM its BPA, he said nothing about need being a part of BPA? Which you and I agree is a part of it…

The key phrase there that I guess we can take from it is "The best football player on the board"

If he used this as a statement to make a point, then im sure position is taken into account with scoring atleast, probably lightly weighted, but there.

If he was literal in the statement, then he will literally go for the BPA unless trading down offers a better combined score.

The 1st option really is looking to improve short term success at the slight sacrifice of long term. The 2nd option cares only about the long term.

If I had to choose, just to be completely different than we have ever done, im OK with A pure BPA approach.

I just think it’s “GM speak” if you are truly a BPA guy you would just rank your top 300+ players and when it’s your turn to pick, look at your board and pick. I think BPA and Need are just part of your overall draft strategy. For example Dallas has drafted OL in the first round the last 3 out of 4 years; I don’t think in each case the Cowboys thought that OL was the BPA or that they needed OL. I think they made a conscience decision to build their OL and pick the best OL available.

DEHog wrote:I just think it’s “GM speak” if you are truly a BPA guy you would just rank your top 300+ players and when it’s your turn to pick, look at your board and pick. I think BPA and Need are just part of your overall draft strategy. For example Dallas has drafted OL in the first round the last 3 out of 4 years; I don’t think in each case the Cowboys thought that OL was the BPA or that they needed OL. I think they made a conscience decision to build their OL and pick the best OL available.

Sure but how do you rank players? By what criteria? I wish I could find the article I read recently about this, but this is a dummy example of how it might go:

Jameis Winston
Talent score of 1 - 10: 7
Positional Value score of 1 - 5 QB: 5
Team needs score of 1 - 5: 2
Overall Score: 14

Landon Collins
Player eval score: 7
Positional value safety: 3
Team Needs: 5
Overall Score: 15

Leonard Williams
Player Eval Score: 9
Positiona Value Defensive End: 5
Team Needs: 3
Overall Score: 17

You get to pick #5 and those guys are available, you take the guy with your highest score. We might think we NEED a safety more than a DE, but if the score isn't close we should take the DE.

You're missing the point that more goes into assigning grades than just how good a football player some guy is. I'm sure they're adding in scores for off field stuff, medical history, IQ tests, coachability, etc; etc; If you weren't taking positional value and team needs into account when putting together your list of players, you'd be drafting kickers in the second round.

I'm not really sure why this is such a difficult concept for you. You can take team needs into account and still follow a best player available strategy.

riggofan wrote:

DEHog wrote:I just think it’s “GM speak” if you are truly a BPA guy you would just rank your top 300+ players and when it’s your turn to pick, look at your board and pick. I think BPA and Need are just part of your overall draft strategy. For example Dallas has drafted OL in the first round the last 3 out of 4 years; I don’t think in each case the Cowboys thought that OL was the BPA or that they needed OL. I think they made a conscience decision to build their OL and pick the best OL available.

Sure but how do you rank players? By what criteria? I wish I could find the article I read recently about this, but this is a dummy example of how it might go:

Jameis Winston
Talent score of 1 - 10: 7
Positional Value score of 1 - 5 QB: 5
Team needs score of 1 - 5: 2
Overall Score: 14

Landon Collins
Player eval score: 7
Positional value safety: 3
Team Needs: 5
Overall Score: 15

Leonard Williams
Player Eval Score: 9
Positiona Value Defensive End: 5
Team Needs: 3
Overall Score: 17

You get to pick #5 and those guys are available, you take the guy with your highest score. We might think we NEED a safety more than a DE, but if the score isn't close we should take the DE.

You're missing the point that more goes into assigning grades than just how good a football player some guy is. I'm sure they're adding in scores for off field stuff, medical history, IQ tests, coachability, etc; etc; If you weren't taking positional value and team needs into account when putting together your list of players, you'd be drafting kickers in the second round.

I'm not really sure why this is such a difficult concept for you. You can take team needs into account and still follow a best player available strategy.

Yea I get it...but why the black and white issue of BPA vs. Need??

DEHog wrote:Yea I get it...but why the black and white issue of BPA vs. Need??

Because they're two different strategies?

Look at the players I just posted. If we were drafting by need, we would get to pick #5 and say OK we think our team needs a safety. Who's the best safety in this class? Take Landon Collins even though he's not our highest graded player overall. Its a completely different approach.

I think the main reason to make it black & white is just to explain it to the fans. You know in April if we don't take a safety or o-line with the first pick that 90% of the fans will be up in arms about it. In that sense, I agree with you that its "GM speak".

Man, I was just looking at the 2014 draft results btw. Its still hard to figure out what we were doing. I like Trent Murphy ok but that's still a weird pick. Completely failed in the late rounds. I'm really hoping McGloughan delivers this year.

This will likely be a very interesting draft. Also curious to see the FA moves he does make. Will he target players like Byron Maxwell and Lupati that he drafted because the knows what they are capable of? Will he add a lot through FA because we have so many needs?

DEHog wrote:I just think it’s “GM speak” if you are truly a BPA guy you would just rank your top 300+ players and when it’s your turn to pick, look at your board and pick. I think BPA and Need are just part of your overall draft strategy. For example Dallas has drafted OL in the first round the last 3 out of 4 years; I don’t think in each case the Cowboys thought that OL was the BPA or that they needed OL. I think they made a conscience decision to build their OL and pick the best OL available.

Yes, but Jerruh is their GM and he's not a BPA guy.

Deadskins wrote:

DEHog wrote:I just think it’s “GM speak” if you are truly a BPA guy you would just rank your top 300+ players and when it’s your turn to pick, look at your board and pick. I think BPA and Need are just part of your overall draft strategy. For example Dallas has drafted OL in the first round the last 3 out of 4 years; I don’t think in each case the Cowboys thought that OL was the BPA or that they needed OL. I think they made a conscience decision to build their OL and pick the best OL available.

Yes, but Jerruh is their GM and he's not a BPA guy.

Yeah wasn't he like on the verge of taking Manziel last year when his football guys talked him down?

riggofan wrote:

DEHog wrote:Yea I get it...but why the black and white issue of BPA vs. Need??

Because they're two different strategies?

Look at the players I just posted. If we were drafting by need, we would get to pick #5 and say OK we think our team needs a safety. Who's the best safety in this class? Take Landon Collins even though he's not our highest graded player overall. Its a completely different approach.

I think the main reason to make it black & white is just to explain it to the fans. You know in April if we don't take a safety or o-line with the first pick that 90% of the fans will be up in arms about it. In that sense, I agree with you that its "GM speak".

Man, I was just looking at the 2014 draft results btw. Its still hard to figure out what we were doing. I like Trent Murphy ok but that's still a weird pick. Completely failed in the late rounds. I'm really hoping McGloughan delivers this year.

You cannot judge a draft after only one season.

PAPDOG67 wrote:

riggofan wrote:

DEHog wrote:Yea I get it...but why the black and white issue of BPA vs. Need??

Because they're two different strategies?

Look at the players I just posted. If we were drafting by need, we would get to pick #5 and say OK we think our team needs a safety. Who's the best safety in this class? Take Landon Collins even though he's not our highest graded player overall. Its a completely different approach.

I think the main reason to make it black & white is just to explain it to the fans. You know in April if we don't take a safety or o-line with the first pick that 90% of the fans will be up in arms about it. In that sense, I agree with you that its "GM speak".

Man, I was just looking at the 2014 draft results btw. Its still hard to figure out what we were doing. I like Trent Murphy ok but that's still a weird pick. Completely failed in the late rounds. I'm really hoping McGloughan delivers this year.

You cannot judge a draft after only one season.

For the purposes of this conversation (BPA vs. Need) I think it’s appropriate to judge, and agree with Riggo…I didn’t understand as well…

riggofan wrote:

Deadskins wrote:

DEHog wrote:I just think it’s “GM speak” if you are truly a BPA guy you would just rank your top 300+ players and when it’s your turn to pick, look at your board and pick. I think BPA and Need are just part of your overall draft strategy. For example Dallas has drafted OL in the first round the last 3 out of 4 years; I don’t think in each case the Cowboys thought that OL was the BPA or that they needed OL. I think they made a conscience decision to build their OL and pick the best OL available.

Yes, but Jerruh is their GM and he's not a BPA guy.

Yeah wasn't he like on the verge of taking Manziel last year when his football guys talked him down?

Yeah but they didn't...He's turned alot of his duties over to his son who is relying more or football people...hard to argue their results??

DEHog wrote:

PAPDOG67 wrote:You cannot judge a draft after only one season.

For the purposes of this conversation (BPA vs. Need) I think it’s appropriate to judge, and agree with Riggo…I didn’t understand as well…

Yeah I know what you're saying - I wasn't judging the players. I was just looking at that draft and trying to understand how we selected the players that we did. Murphy kind of looks like a guy they had rated highly and they decided was BPA at that pick. I'm not sure about Long and Moses though. You have to wonder if they were determined to go o-line in that draft.

riggofan wrote:

DEHog wrote:

PAPDOG67 wrote:You cannot judge a draft after only one season.

For the purposes of this conversation (BPA vs. Need) I think it’s appropriate to judge, and agree with Riggo…I didn’t understand as well…

Yeah I know what you're saying - I wasn't judging the players. I was just looking at that draft and trying to understand how we selected the players that we did. Murphy kind of looks like a guy they had rated highly and they decided was BPA at that pick. I'm not sure about Long and Moses though. You have to wonder if they were determined to go o-line in that draft.

I agree I think Allen totally went with what he (or the fans..LOL) believed was needed!!

jmooney wrote:I agree to the BPA philosophy to a point but, what if:

at 5, it just may be this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS9Hq4bdFY0. Brandon Scherff OT, Iowa

Would you guys pull the trigger even though we have Trent? If yes, which one starts on the right side?

I mean, this dude is an animal. I think Williams has better feet but, Scherff may be nastier.

I would not use a pick this high for an OL other than LT. No way we move T. Will from LT. BPA shouldn't be taken literally, suppose a FB was the best football player on the board?

yupchagee wrote:

jmooney wrote:I agree to the BPA philosophy to a point but, what if:

at 5, it just may be this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS9Hq4bdFY0. Brandon Scherff OT, Iowa

Would you guys pull the trigger even though we have Trent? If yes, which one starts on the right side?

I mean, this dude is an animal. I think Williams has better feet but, Scherff may be nastier.

I would not use a pick this high for an OL other than LT. No way we move T. Will from LT. BPA shouldn't be taken literally, suppose a FB was the best football player on the board?

Like was stated before, BPA takes a lot into consideration. Certain positions get more points, sometimes need adds a few points, how much better they are than others in their position, and how likely a player is to fall into later rounds like fullbacks and such.

If an o lineman is the best ranked player, then we will take one, if we think we can trade down and still get the player on our board then we do that.

cowboykillerzRGiii wrote:^ Id add that while Snyder to most fans is the devil and the root of all evil who has singlehandedly distroyed our beloved skins.. No one, however, can deny his love for the team and genuinely wanting/trying to get us back to the glory days. When you're at the top and no one is telling you how bad an idea is to do something that u dont know enough about- you do what ever you think is right... he just happe ed to be horribly wrong on nearly every account.

Snyder fires guys like Marty S that don't kowtow so its wholly on Snyder and those of us who have spent money on the Skins during his ownership. I stopped paying last season the deep goodwill account was finally exhausted. I blame Snyder for all his stupidity starting with firing Marty just when Marty seem to be establishing his program winning I think 6 or the last 8. That was my first Oh *sh$t*! moment with Snyder before that I was excited about a new young owner. I remember thinking this was stupid and misery was ahead mercifully I didn't imagine the utter futility that lay ahead then, now it's unmistakable we all see it.

the first 5-6 months of the past 10+ years have been a period of cautious optimism for Redskins fans

it's really simple - each season we rationalize that surely the franchise will have learned from their mistakes and by the 6th or 7th game of the regular season we're starting to look at what we need to do to get better in the following off season

Dan Snyder has become a master at creating a scenario that we all buy into - not that most of us financially 'support' the franchise but we do look ahead and imagine the glass half full and all the "what ifs" are fully realized

we are at that place again where we are seeing some changes that most think are needed and approaching another opportunity for guys that know what they're doing to help get this franchise back on track ...

I hope that Snyder gives these guys the support and the time they need to do what needs to be done - having a plan is important but more important than having a great plan and even having a good draft is for Snyder to just stay out of things

it's as simple as that - the draft and the free agents we bring in and the new coaches are only going to help this franchise if Dan Snyder let's these guys do their thing - having an unbelievably great draft means little if the accountability from top to bottom of the franchise does not change - we as fans need to stop looking at the O line or the defensive backfield issues or the QBs as the reasons for this franchise's not being competitive - we're not competitive because we don't have any accountability at any level - these guys can make that happen if Snyder let's them

At this time, all of these coaches and players are happy just have a job in the NFL - we need to change that and build a franchise with a different culture than we've had

I like what we're hearing about the draft strategies, the BPA and filling needs through free agency but the best thing would be to finally have a FO make decisions with Snyder's support and not through his influencing their decisions as he has

C'mon Dan - let these guys really take control here, please

yupchagee wrote:

jmooney wrote:I agree to the BPA philosophy to a point but, what if:

at 5, it just may be this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS9Hq4bdFY0. Brandon Scherff OT, Iowa

Would you guys pull the trigger even though we have Trent? If yes, which one starts on the right side?

I mean, this dude is an animal. I think Williams has better feet but, Scherff may be nastier.

I would not use a pick this high for an OL other than LT. No way we move T. Will from LT. BPA shouldn't be taken literally, suppose a FB was the best football player on the board?

Since BPA is a way of picking via identifying dominant athletes and top technicians, I'd say that a FB is highly unlikely to be the best player available in the first round. The best athletes and technicians in college never play fullback.

I don't get the opposition to the strategy I'm seeing on this board. We've lived with non-BPA drafting strategies for decades now. Can't we give another strategy, and one run by a guy most in the league consider the best at what he does, a chance? Has it really made you feel better in the past when we selected a no-name LB or OL with a 5th rounder because we needed to "address" our weaknesses at a given position? Draft graders use that kind of thing as fodder for their "report cards," but we fans sure don't feel better three years later when we still don't have competent starters on the team despite drafting while keeping "needs" in mind.

DarthMonk laid it all out pretty clearly a page or two ago, as he so often does. If you stick with BPA and do a good job of it in 5 years, your roster might look a lot different than you originally expected (e.g., it's possible that Trent Williams or Alfred Morris aren't even playing for us by then), but do you really think you'll want to complain given the likely results? The man picked an average of four Pro Bowl players per draft in the last 10 years he's been responsible for a team's roster. If he has half that success here our team will look much improved five years down the road.

And if the fullback happened to be the likes of Jim Brown, Earl Campbell, or John Riggins, you might want to reconsider.

Irn-Bru wrote:

yupchagee wrote:

jmooney wrote:I agree to the BPA philosophy to a point but, what if:

at 5, it just may be this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS9Hq4bdFY0. Brandon Scherff OT, Iowa

Would you guys pull the trigger even though we have Trent? If yes, which one starts on the right side?

I mean, this dude is an animal. I think Williams has better feet but, Scherff may be nastier.

I would not use a pick this high for an OL other than LT. No way we move T. Will from LT. BPA shouldn't be taken literally, suppose a FB was the best football player on the board?

Since BPA is a way of picking via identifying dominant athletes and top technicians, I'd say that a FB is highly unlikely to be the best player available in the first round. The best athletes and technicians in college never play fullback.

The GMs aren't idiots (for the most part) either. They take the "value" of positions into account when scoring the players. That's why we're not seeing many RBs being drafted in the first round anymore. The value of that position has dropped massively, and you have to be an Adrian Peterson type player so ridiculously good that it outweighs your positional value.

Interesting article. Our under 25 talent is terrible. We're a rudderless ship. Pretty sad that there's nothing to look forward to, record wise, for a while.

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blog ... s&id=14892

Looking forward to this draft with more optimism,now that Scot is at the helm.