What is the most important cause for the DEFENSE collapse?

[Red_One43]

I voted injuries and suspensions, but it's not like the defense was stellar in 2010 and 2011. Look back at the post game threads from the last two years, and there were plenty of complaints about the defense giving up game winning drives. Now, I personally think a lot of that had to do with an inept offense that had the D on the field way too often after three and outs, and the D being just too tired to stop the opposition. But the D bent and broke way too often in the past as well.

Excellent point! I think we did give the D too much of an excuse because the inept offense.

This year's D has 7 out of 11 starters that started against the Steelers. Eight if you count Doughty who is starting now and was a part time starter last year. Eight starters from a D that finished just outside the top 10 last year, should be enough to be keep the D respectable. Looking at 2010 and 11, we are seeing some of the same systematic problems in 2012.

[Red_One43]

For comparison purposes:

The Colts defense, however, hasn’t recovered while he’s been gone. They have just three sacks in Mathis’ absence, with Dwight Freeney struggling to play through a sprained ankle.

They also have just three takeaways on the season, a number which can be traced back to the lack of a pass-rush. Every other team in the league has at least seven, and their franchise low was 17 last year.

Looking at the stats below, one can see that the Colts has similar issues as our D, yet they are not experiencing the horrid performances that our D is experiencing. Injuries are a problems for the skins as with any team, but the Colts and other teams, make due. After the first two years, the excuses are gone. This is a coaching problem and since it is similar to the problems that Shanny had toward the end of his Bronco run, I would have to say that he shares the most of the blame with Haz.

*The Colts had serious cap issues in putting their roster together.
*Robert Mathis has been out for three games
*Freeney is struggling to learn the OLB and has an injured ankle
*They are in their first year transitioning to the 3-4 (Haz made the 3 year excuse)
*They have no pass rush.
*They have three take aways on the season (We have 4 defensive TDs)
*They are ranked 19th in total Defense (We are ranked 19th)
*They are 11th in points per game ( 24.4). (We are 5th with 28.4 ppg)
*The Colts are 4-3 beat 2 winning teams (Pack and Vikes) Skins are 3-5 beat 1 winning team (Vikes)
*Common Opponent - Vikes: Colts D - 327 yrds and 20 points Redskins D - 421 yrds and 26 points
Colts O has 13 turnovers Redskin O has 9 turnovers (Redskin O has been more helpful to the D than the Colts.

Link ="They have just three sacks..."

[DarthMonk]

This isn't very scientific but it seems like we teach a bunch of scheme but not much technique.

So

... a guy is in position but gets run over/through trying to make an arm tackle = doesn't really know how to tackle.

... a guy is open and drops the ball = doesn't really know how to catch.

... a guy lines up as the over man on a double team and lets a WR behind him in the blink of an eye = doesn't really know how to turn his hips.

... a guy comes free on a blitz and whiffs = doesn't really know how to break down with a stutter step.

Good thing Griff's dad taught him how to throw from all arm slots while sitting in a chair. Dude was born to coach.

DarthMonk

[Red_One43]

Darrell Green talks about the problems with the secondary:

“In my humble opinion, you’re seeing a lack of skill development. We’re not talking about ‘Can they do it?’ We’re not saying, ‘Can they play?’ But I think that there’s a lost art of people knowing how to teach you how to do what you’re supposed to do,” Green said before Sunday’s game. “I think that the league lacks that, and in my opinion that’s what they’re lacking here. I know some of these kids, and I know that they can do it. But when I watch, I go ‘Wow, he doesn’t even know.’”

Sounds like a coaching issue to me.

[tribeofjudah]

Darrell Green talks about the problems with the secondary:

“In my humble opinion, you’re seeing a lack of skill development. We’re not talking about ‘Can they do it?’ We’re not saying, ‘Can they play?’ But I think that there’s a lost art of people knowing how to teach you how to do what you’re supposed to do,” Green said before Sunday’s game. “I think that the league lacks that, and in my opinion that’s what they’re lacking here. I know some of these kids, and I know that they can do it. But when I watch, I go ‘Wow, he doesn’t even know.’”

Sounds like a coaching issue to me.

Hey Mr. D Green.....go in there and coach-em-up Dude.

We'd love to have your KNOWLEDGE on the staff......... come on LIL man Danny.... call D Green and pay him some bucks

[UK Skins Fan]

I'll go with poor 3-4 implementation, but won't heap it all on Haslett. I'd expand by saying that it's an unnecessary 3-4 implementation. The defence really wasn't broke, so should have been left alone.

Three years later, and our defensive linemen are still better suited to a 4-3 defence. Kerrigan and Orakpo would both be better ends than linebackers.

The only reason not to switch straight back to 4-3 next season is that we don't have any outside linebackers for that system, and signing them would prevent us from improving the secondary. But honestly, at this stage, that wouldn't stop me from changing right now.

We've got players and coaches who are better suited to the 4-3 defence. The question is: do we have a head coach who can be trusted to make the right decision?

[DaSkinz Baby]

I mean come on, what do you expect when you have a deaf slow player playing one safety and then another slow always out of position scrub playing the other safety? Reed and Madiou are the worst safeties in the NFL period. For us to sign him and keep Reed is and was a pathetic retarded decision. At least playing Gnomes you are giving a young player experience to get better and sorry he is no more worse then the ass clowns currently starting and getting burned every week.

[markshark84]

There is very little (really nothing) you can do as a DC to create unpredictability. Haz knows opponents are going to throw 75-80% of the time since it has been highly successful against this D and when you have a DL that can't apply pressure, being aggressive doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure there is anything anyone could do to make this D unpredictable outside of getting new players. He can simplify the D, but we are 8 games into the season --- the transition alone would take a couple games; it wouldn't help.

Colts DC would probably challenge you that there is little he could do to make his D unpredictable. A few posts back I posted a link with the Colts lack of talent, first year transitioning, 3-4 Defense that is ranked about 10 spots above us, but good enough to give their O some support. See Jay Gruden who said Haz has always been predictable.

Did you read the link I provided in this thread by John Keim that picked the brain of someone who knows the Steeler D and compared it to what Haz is doing? For that simplification, there is not a transition period. You simply stop trying to trying to be so confusing on every down. The Steelers run a basic package for almost every down except third. You are right changing to a 49er type 3-4 might take take time.

Sure, if Haz had better players, he would be doing better. That is true of any DC. It has been said that Ray Lewis got a couple DC's head coaching jobs. Mike Nolan probably was one when he took the Niners before Singletary. Look at Spags with NO. He was thought of as the best when he left the Giants. You know his story, but this guy with the Colts, in the his first year of a 3-4 (remember Haz's excuses in his first year with the Skins - it take three years).

The best DCs at least make their defenses respectable. There is something flawed with the way the Skins D is being run. How much blames goes where, we don't know, but we know the buck stops at Haz and then Shanny's desk.

I wasn't really arguing that Haz was not predictable, only that with a one dimensional D, it is difficult to be unpredictable. I want to be clear: I am not a huge fan of Haz and wouldn't mind seeing him gone after this year (as long as there is a good replacement on the market and we don't reach).

You are correct that the best DCs make their Ds respectable -- Haz is not one of the best DCs in the league; far from it.

In terms of the Colts --- look at who they have played. They have only played 2 good offenses -- CHI put up 41 on them; GB put up 27. They also had the bye week for GB. When you play the Jets-CLE-TENN-MIA in 4 straight games, your D will look better than they are.

[Deadskins]

For us to sign him and keep Reed is and was a pathetic retarded decision.

I completely disagree. Reed has been the one bright spot for our DBs this year. There's a reason he's been on the team through three different coaching staffs. He's a solid player who doesn't have the gifts that most other players in the NFL have, but does his best through hustle and good fundamentals. Of course I'd rather have better players, who wouldn't? But you can't say keeping him as a backup was a pathetic, retarded decision. Cutting him would have been that.

[CanesSkins26]

Darrell Green's and Charles Mann's opinions on what the problem is with the defense:

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2012/11/05/darrell-green-charles-mann-poor-technique-to-blame-for-redskins-defensive-struggles/

[Chris Luva Luva]

Darrell Green's and Charles Mann's opinions on what the problem is with the defense:

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2012/11/05/darrell-green-charles-mann-poor-technique-to-blame-for-redskins-defensive-struggles/

I feel like this is deserving of it's own thread. I'd hate to see it get lost in the mix. It's a fresh take on the situation and I'm inclined to believe it because it makes total sense.

The coaches we have are fine from a schematic POV. But we need people to teach technique... When you have an OL Coach switch over to DB's coach, how would he know their technique? I doubt he could. So he's teaching it? Or do they assume that the guys already know...? Sounds a lot like the regular "work force" to me. I deal with this everyday.

[DaSkinz Baby]

For us to sign him and keep Reed is and was a pathetic retarded decision.

I completely disagree. Reed has been the one bright spot for our DBs this year. There's a reason he's been on the team through three different coaching staffs. He's a solid player who doesn't have the gifts that most other players in the NFL have, but does his best through hustle and good fundamentals. Of course I'd rather have better players, who wouldn't? But you can't say keeping him as a backup was a pathetic, retarded decision. Cutting him would have been that.

I can say that because we are still LOSERS this is the 2012 NFL not a Rudy remake. Fact is Reed wouldn't even be on any other team FACT he has consistently been burned playing safety and if you value his hustle and all that "jazz" bulk him up like Lorenzo did and have him play another position were his lack of speed isn't such a detriment.

[DarthMonk]

Darrell Green's and Charles Mann's opinions on what the problem is with the defense:

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2012/11/05/darrell-green-charles-mann-poor-technique-to-blame-for-redskins-defensive-struggles/

I feel like this is deserving of it's own thread. I'd hate to see it get lost in the mix. It's a fresh take on the situation and I'm inclined to believe it because it makes total sense.

The coaches we have are fine from a schematic POV. But we need people to teach technique... When you have an OL Coach switch over to DB's coach, how would he know their technique? I doubt he could. So he's teaching it? Or do they assume that the guys already know...? Sounds a lot like the regular "work force" to me. I deal with this everyday.

Did they read my post?

This isn't very scientific but it seems like we teach a bunch of scheme but not much technique.

So

... a guy is in position but gets run over/through trying to make an arm tackle = doesn't really know how to tackle.

... a guy is open and drops the ball = doesn't really know how to catch.

... a guy lines up as the over man on a double team and lets a WR behind him in the blink of an eye = doesn't really know how to turn his hips.

... a guy comes free on a blitz and whiffs = doesn't really know how to break down with a stutter step.

Good thing Griff's dad taught him how to throw from all arm slots while sitting in a chair. Dude was born to coach.

DarthMonk

[DaSkinz Baby]

I also think never making Carlos Rogers go to the eye doctor shows what embeciles we have as defensive coaches. The more I read these posts the more I am convinced this whole organization needs to be canned. This also includes the owner. Daniel Snyder's biggest mistake was when he brought this team he didn't go to Annapolis and hire Ron Wolf to teach him what he needed to know to be a successful owner.

[SkinsJock]

just WOW

[Red_One43]

Darrell Green's and Charles Mann's opinions on what the problem is with the defense:

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2012/11/05/darrell-green-charles-mann-poor-technique-to-blame-for-redskins-defensive-struggles/

Both former players see plenty of talent in the Redskins’ defensive ranks. And neither questions the schemes that Haslett has dialed up. But they question whether the players are being taught how to capitalize on their natural ability and elevate their games.

I have been arguing all along that this isn't mainly a talent issue. Both Mann and Green see enough talent. I have added, from John Keim's reports, that while the 3-4 is not the problem, the way Haz is running it is a major part of the problem.

[CanesSkins26]

Darrell Green's and Charles Mann's opinions on what the problem is with the defense:

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2012/11/05/darrell-green-charles-mann-poor-technique-to-blame-for-redskins-defensive-struggles/

I feel like this is deserving of it's own thread. I'd hate to see it get lost in the mix. It's a fresh take on the situation and I'm inclined to believe it because it makes total sense.

The coaches we have are fine from a schematic POV. But we need people to teach technique... When you have an OL Coach switch over to DB's coach, how would he know their technique? I doubt he could. So he's teaching it? Or do they assume that the guys already know...? Sounds a lot like the regular "work force" to me. I deal with this everyday.

Good point. I'll start a new thread.

[HEROHAMO]

Its all of the above except injuries and suspensions. However I do think if Merriwether can get his act together he could help a bit.

[Deadskins]

Its all of the above except injuries and suspensions.

[SkinsJock]

Its all of the above except injuries and suspensions. However I do think if Merriwether can get his act together he could help a bit.

actually ..... if the players and coaches get their acts together it would really help a lot

[Kilmer72]

I'm sticking by my guns. Injuries and suspensions have most do do with it. It all comes into play. If key member aren't injured then things are much better. I agree coaching, Mara cap hit and all have a part. If you can only pick one I have to go with that.

[1niksder]

Its all of the above except injuries and suspensions.

Lack of Draft and Free Agency effort by the FO, Poor 3-4 implementation & game planning by J. Haslett, Poor execution by an inept and incompetent bunch, and Cap penalty imposed by Mara & his puppet Goddahell

[Deadskins]

Its all of the above except injuries and suspensions.

Lack of Draft and Free Agency effort by the FO, Poor 3-4 implementation & game planning by J. Haslett, Poor execution by an inept and incompetent bunch, and Cap penalty imposed by Mara & his puppet Goddahell

Yeah, I got what he meant. I was scratching my head over how he thinks injuries and suspensions don't figure into it.

[HEROHAMO]

Its all of the above except injuries and suspensions.

You got head lice or something? Why you scratching your head?

Actually I take that back it is all of the above. Orakpo got hurt I forgot about that. So basically the reason the Defense has performed poorly is basically all the answers above.

[Deadskins]

I don't think you can discount Carriker's and Merriwether's injuries, or Jackson's suspension either.