Luck vs. RGIII

[RayNAustin]

The thing is, the Colts are in such sorry shape right now... I suspect both would prefer to play here... the Colts only offer #1 pick money... and a team that's much farther away from good than the skins...

Yes indeed that's true ... add to that the no win situation of replacing Peyton Manning ... not the most ideal situation. A rookie QB no matter how talented, playing on a rebuilding team with and entire new coaching staff and offensive scheme cannot possibly come close to the performance and production that Peyton Manning achieved, and Colt fans had grown accustomed to.

On the other hand ... the Redskins offer a better situation by far, team wise ... and no giant footprints for the rookie's feet to get lost in trying to fill.

[markshark84]

The thing is, the Colts are in such sorry shape right now... I suspect both would prefer to play here... the Colts only offer #1 pick money... and a team that's much farther away from good than the skins...

haha. I'm not too sure that is the case, but from a skins perspective it seems reasonable.

If you look at it from an employer-employee relationship, I am not sure the skins are that much more attractive. The skins ownership has a history over very high turnover, both in coaches and players. That is never good. Indy has had fairly consistent players and coaches -- until this year. They have appeared to be more loyal as compared to the skins, but i do think that is arguable given Indy's recent firings.

Now, the skins have better player personnel -- superior WRs, TEs, RBs, both teams have bad OLs (which is the case with almost all bad teams). So in that case, the skins are definetely more attractive.

As a QB, you want an owner, FO, and coaching staff who are committed to you and building around you. Typically those types are "loyalty guys", which I don't see Snyder as. An arguement can be made that the Indy owner is given his track record with Manning.

But we'll see. This is totally subjective and I know that most subjective skins fans will disagree.

[riggofan]

The thing is, the Colts are in such sorry shape right now... I suspect both would prefer to play here... the Colts only offer #1 pick money... and a team that's much farther away from good than the skins...

haha. I'm not too sure that is the case, but from a skins perspective it seems reasonable.

If you look at it from an employer-employee relationship, I am not sure the skins are that much more attractive. The skins ownership has a history over very high turnover, both in coaches and players. That is never good. Indy has had fairly consistent players and coaches -- until this year. They have appeared to be more loyal as compared to the skins, but i do think that is arguable given Indy's recent firings.

Now, the skins have better player personnel -- superior WRs, TEs, RBs, both teams have bad OLs (which is the case with almost all bad teams). So in that case, the skins are definetely more attractive.

As a QB, you want an owner, FO, and coaching staff who are committed to you and building around you. Typically those types are "loyalty guys", which I don't see Snyder as. An arguement can be made that the Indy owner is given his track record with Manning.

But we'll see. This is totally subjective and I know that most subjective skins fans will disagree.

Nah I think you make a fair point, but Shanahan might balance out some of the negatives of Snyder.

Also when you talk about attractive places to play, you also have to consider the location itself. Have any of you been to Indianapolis? I don't think it would be hard to argue that D.C. is a much nicer place to love, not to mention that its a bigger stage/larger market.

[SkinsJock]

No player or agent would make a decision based on what has happened at a franchise EXCEPT as it pertains to what might happen

What happened here before this FO came in has absolutely no bearing on what might happen here going forward

The Colts franchise looks to be further away from offering a consistently competitive environment to work than the Redskins

The recent trade with the Rams is a major coup for the Redskins franchise and shows that they are determined and committed to making this franchise be a great place to come and play - The owner of this franchise will back up the FO and we are going to see a lot of players and their agents looking at the Redskins in a very different way than they did

The RG3 era is about to begin - the Redskins' train is bound for glory once again

[Countertrey]

The thing is, the Colts are in such sorry shape right now... I suspect both would prefer to play here... the Colts only offer #1 pick money... and a team that's much farther away from good than the skins...

haha. I'm not too sure that is the case, but from a skins perspective it seems reasonable.

If you look at it from an employer-employee relationship, I am not sure the skins are that much more attractive. The skins ownership has a history over very high turnover, both in coaches and players. That is never good. Indy has had fairly consistent players and coaches -- until this year. They have appeared to be more loyal as compared to the skins, but i do think that is arguable given Indy's recent firings.

Now, the skins have better player personnel -- superior WRs, TEs, RBs, both teams have bad OLs (which is the case with almost all bad teams). So in that case, the skins are definetely more attractive.

As a QB, you want an owner, FO, and coaching staff who are committed to you and building around you. Typically those types are "loyalty guys", which I don't see Snyder as. An arguement can be made that the Indy owner is given his track record with Manning.

But we'll see. This is totally subjective and I know that most subjective skins fans will disagree.

You are missing one important factor... Head coaches. The Redskins have a head coach with an established offense that is actually designed to take advantage of the very skill sets possessed by these two talented quarterbacks. Both will be fully aware of the benefits such an offense has for an athletic quarterback's career.

On the other hand, Chuck Pagano, the new Colts HC is a brilliant defensive mind. Defensive head coaches tend towards conservatism in their offense, because that helps to protect the defense. Long time of possession means less time on defense. Explosive offenses put the ball right back into the hands of the opponent. Hence, a preference for grind it out offenses. Of course, this also suggests that Pagano would have a preferrence for Luck, whom, I think we all would agree, is likely to be the less explosive of the two QB options... though I think both are capable of a methodical mind-set)

Yes, this is postulation, based on the tendencies of defensive minded Head Coaches in general... and, that's part of the point... they have no idea what the Colts offense will look like. Irsay, despite his track record as an owner... is not designing or calling the offense.

[markshark84]

No player or agent would make a decision based on what has happened at a franchise EXCEPT as it pertains to what might happen

What happened here before this FO came in has absolutely no bearing on what might happen here going forward

Not sure what context you are talking about, but when a player is deciding on a team, they absolutely take into consideration what has happened in the past or previsou decisions that had been made by the owner of FO.

Your first statement is basically self-proving, so I am not sure what you are trying to say other than "people don't consider things unless they relevant" -- which is obvious.

As to your second point -- as an individual who knows a number of agents (to put it mildly) they absolutely consider what has happened in the past -- especially when it comes to owners who play a role in football decisions. From an agent's perspective, you are correnct in that the first consideration is the FO (and player personell), but if the owner is a "hands on" owner, then the owner is also considered part of the FO. ALL (or at least 100% of the ones I know) NFL agents consider Snyder a hands on owner. If the owner is not considered "hands on", the agent will then evaulate the FO's job security. Agents know that owners control the FO, so they are always considered; and as such, their actions are considered as relevant. I am not sure what interaction you have had with player agents, but your second statement is just not accurate.

[markshark84]

The thing is, the Colts are in such sorry shape right now... I suspect both would prefer to play here... the Colts only offer #1 pick money... and a team that's much farther away from good than the skins...

haha. I'm not too sure that is the case, but from a skins perspective it seems reasonable.

If you look at it from an employer-employee relationship, I am not sure the skins are that much more attractive. The skins ownership has a history over very high turnover, both in coaches and players. That is never good. Indy has had fairly consistent players and coaches -- until this year. They have appeared to be more loyal as compared to the skins, but i do think that is arguable given Indy's recent firings.

Now, the skins have better player personnel -- superior WRs, TEs, RBs, both teams have bad OLs (which is the case with almost all bad teams). So in that case, the skins are definetely more attractive.

As a QB, you want an owner, FO, and coaching staff who are committed to you and building around you. Typically those types are "loyalty guys", which I don't see Snyder as. An arguement can be made that the Indy owner is given his track record with Manning.

But we'll see. This is totally subjective and I know that most subjective skins fans will disagree.

You are missing one important factor... Head coaches. The Redskins have a head coach with an established offense that is actually designed to take advantage of the very skill sets possessed by these two talented quarterbacks. Both will be fully aware of the benefits such an offense has for an athletic quarterback's career.

On the other hand, Chuck Pagano, the new Colts HC is a brilliant defensive mind. Defensive head coaches tend towards conservatism in their offense, because that helps to protect the defense. Long time of possession means less time on defense. Explosive offenses put the ball right back into the hands of the opponent. Hence, a preference for grind it out offenses. Of course, this also suggests that Pagano would have a preferrence for Luck, whom, I think we all would agree, is likely to be the less explosive of the two QB options... though I think both are capable of a methodical mind-set)

Yes, this is postulation, based on the tendencies of defensive minded Head Coaches in general... and, that's part of the point... they have no idea what the Colts offense will look like. Irsay, despite his track record as an owner... is not designing or calling the offense.

I hear you. Definetely. But what would happen if, say, after not improving our OL in the offseason or via the draft, we end up with a 6-10 record. That means that MS has had a 4 season record of 23-41.

Based on Snyder's history of head coaching turnover, I'm not sure he would be our head coach in 2013.

I guess I should have made that more clear, but I was infering this with the turnover thing.

[markshark84]

The thing is, the Colts are in such sorry shape right now... I suspect both would prefer to play here... the Colts only offer #1 pick money... and a team that's much farther away from good than the skins...

haha. I'm not too sure that is the case, but from a skins perspective it seems reasonable.

If you look at it from an employer-employee relationship, I am not sure the skins are that much more attractive. The skins ownership has a history over very high turnover, both in coaches and players. That is never good. Indy has had fairly consistent players and coaches -- until this year. They have appeared to be more loyal as compared to the skins, but i do think that is arguable given Indy's recent firings.

Now, the skins have better player personnel -- superior WRs, TEs, RBs, both teams have bad OLs (which is the case with almost all bad teams). So in that case, the skins are definetely more attractive.

As a QB, you want an owner, FO, and coaching staff who are committed to you and building around you. Typically those types are "loyalty guys", which I don't see Snyder as. An arguement can be made that the Indy owner is given his track record with Manning.

But we'll see. This is totally subjective and I know that most subjective skins fans will disagree.

Nah I think you make a fair point, but Shanahan might balance out some of the negatives of Snyder.

Also when you talk about attractive places to play, you also have to consider the location itself. Have any of you been to Indianapolis? I don't think it would be hard to argue that D.C. is a much nicer place to love, not to mention that its a bigger stage/larger market.

Totally agree. DC is a much better place to play than Indy and it is a much bigger market.

[SkinsJock]

agents and players are ONLY going to look at consider what this FO is about NOT what happened here when Dumb & Dumber were in charge

in case some here do not realize it - THIS FO is very different and is in charge here with FULL support of the owner

soooo - for those of you that might not realize it ...

the players and agents that are considering the Redskins are ONLY looking at what THIS FO is about and NOT what happened here a few years ago

The Redskins are a lot more attractive than the Colts - both now and for the forseeable future

[markshark84]

agents and players are ONLY going to look at consider what this FO is about NOT what happened here when Dumb & Dumber were in charge

in case some here do not realize it - THIS FO is very different and is in charge here with FULL support of the owner

soooo - for those of you that might not realize it ...

the players and agents that are considering the Redskins are ONLY looking at what THIS FO is about and NOT what happened here a few years ago

The Redskins are a lot more attractive than the Colts - both now and for the forseeable future

I guess you are not understanding what I'm saying:

Agents and player DO consider the actions taken by an owner prior to their current front office, because they are still there. In this case, agents and players consider what Snyder did prior to the arrival of MS and Allen. In particular, agents consider the amount of involvement an owner has in the football operations and historically how quickly an owner generally fires a HC or GM. After all Snyder -- was the dumb in "dumb and dumber".

If you actually think Snyder doesn't make his presence known in the FO, you are just fooling yourself. He attends FO meetings, flys with them on recruiting trips, scouts with them, and meets with the players. And he does support the FO, but for how long? If this team doesn't address it's OL and goes 6-10 next year the likelihood of MS getting fired is greater than his staying here. If you don't think agents are well aware of the high HC turnover in DC and don't make their clients aware of this -- then your just kidding yourself.

While I agree this FO is different from the last one, half of it -- Snyder -- is still here and makes his presence felt. And from my experience, agents do discuss what happened here previously -- to say otherwise would just be ill-informed and naive.

I have heard this first hand from multiple sources. You can post what you think; I'll post what I know.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

What's the point then? No one will come here agents are turned off to Snyder? Wrong.
We r also known to pay players... And the turn around? Granted Snyder is no football mind but its crystal clear his.one desire. To restore a winning team to dc. While many.mistakes were.made he has tried to rectify his doings w quality management who have cleaned house. Ms may or may not be here in three years but the change has. We lack a qb not an o line... Rgiii (or Luck) will improve the oline instantly and I assure you players will be once again attracted to dc.. like Garçon, Meriwheather, Morgan, and... Oh wait those are players who signed with US despite being persued by others (the browns).. maybe players like the Danny? If afterall he made all those signings I like him too. Lmfao we don't know his involvement nor the lack of. We do see better signings in free agency every year and better draft moves/ choices, dc is warming up at the very.least. facts? like any opinion on a board is a fact? Or hear say no matter if it be first or second hand is? Come on now, lighten up will ya?

[gushogs]

At the end of the day money talks and BS walks....

HaiL,

[Deadskins]

But what would happen if, say, after not improving our OL in the offseason or via the draft, we end up with a 6-10 record. That means that MS has had a 4 season record of 23-41.

Based on Snyder's history of head coaching turnover, I'm not sure he would be our head coach in 2013.

Do you really think The Danny would saddle MS with JZ's final season like you just did?

[SkinsJock]

no worries JSPB - most here will get it sooner or later

this FO has put together a trade that is going to ensure the future of this franchise has a great QB for years to come

Snyder has stayed away from anything to do with the FO's decisions and will continue to do so - ESPECIALLY NOW

Snyder will continue to be a YES MAN for this FO, and why not? - they just pulled off a major deal and this franchise's future is VERY bright

I am not a Snyder fan at all but you know that he sees that as long as he doesn't get involved AT ALL, the franchise has a chance to be great

THIS FRANCHISE WITH BRUCE & MIKE IN CHARGE IS BOUND FOR GLORY

[SouthLondonRedskin]

no worries JSPB - most here will get it sooner or later

this FO has put together a trade that is going to ensure the future of this franchise has a great QB for years to come

Snyder has stayed away from anything to do with the FO's decisions and will continue to do so - ESPECIALLY NOW

Snyder will continue to be a YES MAN for this FO, and why not? - they just pulled off a major deal and this franchise's future is VERY bright

I am not a Snyder fan at all but you know that he sees that as long as he doesn't get involved AT ALL, the franchise has a chance to be great

THIS FRANCHISE WITH BRUCE & MIKE IN CHARGE IS BOUND FOR GLORY

I BELIEVE!!!

[Countertrey]

no worries JSPB - most here will get it sooner or later

this FO has put together a trade that is going to ensure the future of this franchise has a great QB for years to come

Snyder has stayed away from anything to do with the FO's decisions and will continue to do so - ESPECIALLY NOW

Snyder will continue to be a YES MAN for this FO, and why not? - they just pulled off a major deal and this franchise's future is VERY bright

I am not a Snyder fan at all but you know that he sees that as long as he doesn't get involved AT ALL, the franchise has a chance to be great

THIS FRANCHISE WITH BRUCE & MIKE IN CHARGE IS BOUND FOR GLORY

I BELIEVE!!!

^ Yes... but can you spell?

[SouthLondonRedskin]

no worries JSPB - most here will get it sooner or later

this FO has put together a trade that is going to ensure the future of this franchise has a great QB for years to come

Snyder has stayed away from anything to do with the FO's decisions and will continue to do so - ESPECIALLY NOW

Snyder will continue to be a YES MAN for this FO, and why not? - they just pulled off a major deal and this franchise's future is VERY bright

I am not a Snyder fan at all but you know that he sees that as long as he doesn't get involved AT ALL, the franchise has a chance to be great

THIS FRANCHISE WITH BRUCE & MIKE IN CHARGE IS BOUND FOR GLORY

I BELIEVE!!!

^ Yes... but can you spell?

Yes... Yes I can.

Didn't think you lot SPELT (I know, but that's how it's done) believe differently as well...?!?!?

How strange...

[Deadskins]

I BELIEVE!!!

^ Yes... but can you spell?

Yes... Yes I can.

Didn't think you lot SPELT (I know, but that's how it's done) believe differently as well...?!?!?

How strange...

He was talking about "I," not "believe."

[SouthLondonRedskin]

I BELIEVE!!!

^ Yes... but can you spell?

Yes... Yes I can.

Didn't think you lot SPELT (I know, but that's how it's done) believe differently as well...?!?!?

How strange...

He was talking about "I," not "believe."

Oh, I spelt 'I' incorrectly. Sorry....

[Countertrey]

LOL

[The Hogster]

I live in DC. And, the city is already energized about RG3. I think it's safe to say that there would be some dissapointment here if we wind up with Luck. If someone said that 6 months ago, you'd call them a liar.

What a difference a year makes. But, keep in mind, there's nothing happening but media speculation right now. The media does this every year before the draft. They throw stories out there that are totally wrong.

Last year, people were saying that Cam Newton could fall to the mid-late first round. There were people who thought Jake Locker wouldn't even go round 1.

Andrew Luck is going to be the #1 pick. He's scheduled to visit Indy while RG3 isn't. The Colts have nothing to gain by playing coy with this pick. They have the #1 pick and just got rid of Peyton Manning. They are taking a QB, and I doubt they are going to give up the chance to draft Luck. The general consensus among NFL scouts is that Luck has the higher floor, and RG3 has the higher ceiling. If you're the GM of the Colts, you don't start your tenure by passing on Luck. Bruce Arians is the OC there, and coming from Pittsburgh, you'd think that Luck fits more of what he's going to try to do.

[SouthLondonRedskin]

I live in DC. And, the city is already energized about RG3. I think it's safe to say that there would be some dissapointment here if we wind up with Luck. If someone said that 6 months ago, you'd call them a liar.

What a difference a year makes. But, keep in mind, there's nothing happening but media speculation right now. The media does this every year before the draft. They throw stories out there that are totally wrong.

Last year, people were saying that Cam Newton could fall to the mid-late first round. There were people who thought Jake Locker wouldn't even go round 1.

Andrew Luck is going to be the #1 pick. He's scheduled to visit Indy while RG3 isn't. The Colts have nothing to gain by playing coy with this pick. They have the #1 pick and just got rid of Peyton Manning. They are taking a QB, and I doubt they are going to give up the chance to draft Luck. The general consensus among NFL scouts is that Luck has the higher floor, and RG3 has the higher ceiling. If you're the GM of the Colts, you don't start your tenure by passing on Luck. Bruce Arians is the OC there, and coming from Pittsburgh, you'd think that Luck fits more of what he's going to try to do.

Can't argue with any of that.

At the end of the day free agency has gone quiet, the draft is still basically a month away and they have to fill their pages with something.

Good Luck to the Colts and good Griff to the Redskins!

[langleyparkjoe]

Good Luck to the Colts and good Griff to the Redskins!

Witty!!!

[markshark84]

What's the point then? No one will come here agents are turned off to Snyder? Wrong.
We r also known to pay players... And the turn around? Granted Snyder is no football mind but its crystal clear his.one desire. To restore a winning team to dc. While many.mistakes were.made he has tried to rectify his doings w quality management who have cleaned house. Ms may or may not be here in three years but the change has. We lack a qb not an o line... Rgiii (or Luck) will improve the oline instantly and I assure you players will be once again attracted to dc.. like Garçon, Meriwheather, Morgan, and... Oh wait those are players who signed with US despite being persued by others (the browns).. maybe players like the Danny? If afterall he made all those signings I like him too. Lmfao we don't know his involvement nor the lack of. We do see better signings in free agency every year and better draft moves/ choices, dc is warming up at the very.least. facts? like any opinion on a board is a fact? Or hear say no matter if it be first or second hand is? Come on now, lighten up will ya?

No. I never questioned Danny's desire. That is clear.

I disagree that we lack an OL. We lack depth and 2 quality starters. An OL is only as good as it's weakest member. A good QB does make an OL better, but this QB is a rookie who will need time to adjust to the speed of the game. Remember Peyton even threw 28 INTs in his first season.

The skins contract offer was Garcon's best offer. As someone said, money talks. This, however, is irrelevant to my prior discussions since monetary contracts aren't at issue because we were looking at rookie QBs whose salaries are really negotiable. Oh, and the Browns is a proven graveyard for WRs.

As far as Danny's involvement, my prior posts were from people with first hand knowledge, so I would put that more in the "know" category than the "we don't know" one.

But you are correct, I do need to lighten up. I do believe I am being too critical. However, I will continue to be upset until we address our OL.

[cowboykillerzRGiii]

What's the point then? No one will come here agents are turned off to Snyder? Wrong.
We r also known to pay players... And the turn around? Granted Snyder is no football mind but its crystal clear his.one desire. To restore a winning team to dc. While many.mistakes were.made he has tried to rectify his doings w quality management who have cleaned house. Ms may or may not be here in three years but the change has. We lack a qb not an o line... Rgiii (or Luck) will improve the oline instantly and I assure you players will be once again attracted to dc.. like Garçon, Meriwheather, Morgan, and... Oh wait those are players who signed with US despite being persued by others (the browns).. maybe players like the Danny? If afterall he made all those signings I like him too. Lmfao we don't know his involvement nor the lack of. We do see better signings in free agency every year and better draft moves/ choices, dc is warming up at the very.least. facts? like any opinion on a board is a fact? Or hear say no matter if it be first or second hand is? Come on now, lighten up will ya?

No. I never questioned Danny's desire. That is clear.

I disagree that we lack an OL. We lack depth and 2 quality starters. An OL is only as good as it's weakest member. A good QB does make an OL better, but this QB is a rookie who will need time to adjust to the speed of the game. Remember Peyton even threw 28 INTs in his first season.

The skins contract offer was Garcon's best offer. As someone said, money talks. This, however, is irrelevant to my prior discussions since monetary contracts aren't at issue because we were looking at rookie QBs whose salaries are really negotiable. Oh, and the Browns is a proven graveyard for WRs.

As far as Danny's involvement, my prior posts were from people with first hand knowledge, so I would put that more in the "know" category than the "we don't know" one.

But you are correct, I do need to lighten up. I do believe I am being too critical. However, I will continue to be upset until we address our OL.

man... And I hear ya on all your points I just think you are exaggerating a good bit to remain unhappy w Snyder and what we are becoming.

As far as the o line goes I'm in the minority here, but I don't think we are far off at all. I think Trent displayed moments of greatness *see puke game shutting down one of the best pass rushers in the league, and everyone else made strides as starters baring all the injuries. Chester I think will improve this season as well as Brown and Cory so long as they get and stay healthy. All of our back ups settled down into a pretty good bunch. If you look at it realistically we had a great run game the last quarter of the year w nearly all back ups. Cook - although a unm alumni- being the weakest link. Every team can use better oline play or can't afford everyone they have. With a mobile qb that makes faster decisions is aware of Pocket pressure and when it collapses who has the speed and agility to extend the play our oline will be much much better then last year. It's a given.statues in the backfield will hurt the olines performance- not because they are awful but because the qb is. If all we do is add a guard and a back up we did a lot. I for one am fine w what we have but wouldn't mind the Baylor center if he is available.
Rant off