Leverage

[KazooSkinsFan]

It gets hard to keep track whether you actually have an opinion in these threads, or if you're just jumping in to antagonize just for the Hell of it.

In fairness everything I do is "just for the hell of it" whether it comes with an opinion or not. But the way you write makes it hard not to pull your chain whether you're right or wrong.

[Deadskins]

It's kind of ODD everytime someone calls you on something you say they say, you can NEVER find the post to back up what you've said. Kind of Odd

Kind of ODD that you thought Peyton should have restructured to stay in Indy. Kind of ODD you thought the Colts had all of the leverage. Kind of ODD that you thought Peyton would be shopping at "The Dollar Store" in Free Agency. Kind of ODD that the resident GM guy is so blatantly wrong here but won't admit it. Kind of ODD you're trying to change the topic now.

Kind of ODD that you mis-state others arguments every time so that you can claim some type of victory in your own mind.

[1niksder]

It's kind of ODD everytime someone calls you on something you say they say, you can NEVER find the post to back up what you've said. Kind of Odd

Kind of ODD that you thought Peyton should have restructured to stay in Indy. Kind of ODD you thought the Colts had all of the leverage. Kind of ODD that you thought Peyton would be shopping at "The Dollar Store" in Free Agency. Kind of ODD that the resident GM guy is so blatantly wrong here but won't admit it. Kind of ODD you're trying to change the topic now.

Its not odd that you're claiming victory although he isn't under contract with ANY team let alone anyone offering him anything close to $35M for 2012 or $63M over 4 years. It's not odd that had he TALKED to the Colts he could have been under contract less than 48 hrs before the new league year starts. Its not odd that his best options at this time are playing a mile above sea level for a team that currently has a full back under center and a team in the desert that's stuck with a QB that they got ripped off to get. It's not odd that I keep saying that time will tell and so far the hottest free agent to hit the market since free agency not only hasn't signed the victory claiming contract that you say is coming, he hasn't took a physical, thrown a pass or did anything to show any THREE of ALL those teams your "leverage" has given him. Had he talked to the Colts he wouldn't have been worried a physicals and the such but you wanted him to have leverage.

He was rumored to be hot in Washington and NY, both teams with $$$ to burn... one traded up in the draft to get the that's left after Manning's replacement is selected and the other extended the contract of their current starter although he still had two years left on the current deal. You said he could pick a team close to winning a Super Bowl... how many are on that list of three fit that mold?

What happen to the leverage that gave him all of the choices you say he would have? Did he decide that he doesn't want his choice of team? Did he forget all the leverage not being a Colt would. bring and that's why only 4 or 5 teams only see him as a option.

Will he have leverage when he talks to the Cards and Broncos knowing both team will take cap hits on the guy Manning would be replacing (huge in Denver's case), or was that the plan all along?

Going to either of those teams would mean any real money would come next year in a option bonus but would put him right back where he was with the Colts but with no history with his new team.

But

That's not what you've been talking about... That's what I said he was looking at and talking to Irsay might produce a better deal or at least call Irsay's bluff knowning no one gets a $28M option bonus in the cap era (you knew that right?) Doesn't matter what you know, you were talking about Peyton having all the leverage, will get a better deal than he chose not to look into saving. And will have his pick of any team that he wants to go to. He just can't make up his mind which of the 31 teams he's going to make see things your way.

You can't call it a W until you are completly proven Wrong..right now there's a chance he may get something close to $17-$18M (half what he had coming from the Colts) in 2012 if he plays 16 games and into the post season. Then you can proudly sport that "W" as you'll be be totally and completely wrong. Then again if Jason Campbell, Kyle Orton and Matt Flynn find new teams before "the Man with the leverage" I guess it would be OK. Either way I don't care, you do. As always I get right and you'll claim your "W".

Time will Tell... but time is running out, money evaporates quickly when that market opens, he might not be in the dollar store but he's sure looking in the bargin bins.


Time will Tell

[The Hogster]

We will see Daniel Son.

[1niksder]

KC and Seattle just took their opinion of leverage off the table... seems to be more teams saying don't pick me than the number of teams you and your leverage thought would be saying pick me.

Fact are facts... what we post here is all we got here. I stand by mind regardless how you try to spend them. Even if I didn't they are there for all to see... so are yours

[1niksder]

The Cards carring over $5M less than what they could have kind of tells me they don't plan on throwing a lot of money at Mr Leverage either. And he was just there deciding if he was going to let them give him your contract.

[Deadskins]

Hogster, I'd love to hear your take on how Peyton is gaining leverage by eliminating teams before they even have a chance to bid on his services. First the Redskins, and now the Dolphins. Remember, Brandt said options create leverage, and he's knocking teams off the auction floor.

[1niksder]

I don't want to beat a dead horse but when you think about it... I'm not the one that wanted the Colts out of the picture. Therefore well placed kicks and pokes can pump air into this dying horse's lungs.

It's kind of ODD everytime someone calls you on something you say they say, you can NEVER find the post to back up what you've said. Kind of Odd

Kind of ODD that you thought Peyton should have restructured to stay in Indy. Kind of ODD you thought the Colts had all of the leverage. Kind of ODD that you thought Peyton would be shopping at "The Dollar Store" in Free Agency. Kind of ODD that the resident GM guy is so blatantly wrong here but won't admit it. Kind of ODD you're trying to change the topic now.

Its not odd that you're claiming victory although he isn't under contract with ANY team let alone anyone offering him anything close to $35M for 2012 or $63M over 4 years. It's not odd that had he TALKED to the Colts he could have been under contract less than 48 hrs before the new league year starts. Its not odd that his best options at this time are playing a mile above sea level for a team that currently has a full back under center and a team in the desert that's stuck with a QB that they got ripped off to get. It's not odd that I keep saying that time will tell and so far the hottest free agent to hit the market since free agency not only hasn't signed the victory claiming contract that you say is coming, he hasn't took a physical, thrown a pass or did anything to show any THREE of ALL those teams your "leverage" has given him. Had he talked to the Colts he wouldn't have been worried a physicals and the such but you wanted him to have leverage.

He was rumored to be hot in Washington and NY, both teams with $$$ to burn... one traded up in the draft to get the that's left after Manning's replacement is selected and the other extended the contract of their current starter although he still had two years left on the current deal. You said he could pick a team close to winning a Super Bowl... how many are on that list of three fit that mold?

What happen to the leverage that gave him all of the choices you say he would have? Did he decide that he doesn't want his choice of team? Did he forget all the leverage not being a Colt would. bring and that's why only 4 or 5 teams only see him as a option.

Will he have leverage when he talks to the Cards and Broncos knowing both team will take cap hits on the guy Manning would be replacing (huge in Denver's case), or was that the plan all along?

Going to either of those teams would mean any real money would come next year in a option bonus but would put him right back where he was with the Colts but with no history with his new team.

But

That's not what you've been talking about... That's what I said he was looking at and talking to Irsay might produce a better deal or at least call Irsay's bluff knowning no one gets a $28M option bonus in the cap era (you knew that right?) Doesn't matter what you know, you were talking about Peyton having all the leverage, will get a better deal than he chose not to look into saving. And will have his pick of any team that he wants to go to. He just can't make up his mind which of the 31 teams he's going to make see things your way.

You can't call it a W until you are completly proven Wrong..right now there's a chance he may get something close to $17-$18M (half what he had coming from the Colts) in 2012 if he plays 16 games and into the post season. Then you can proudly sport that "W" as you'll be be totally and completely wrong. Then again if Jason Campbell, Kyle Orton and Matt Flynn find new teams before "the Man with the leverage" I guess it would be OK. Either way I don't care, you do. As always I get right and you'll claim your "W".

Time will Tell... but time is running out, money evaporates quickly when that market opens, he might not be in the dollar store but he's sure looking in the bargin bins.


Time will Tell

And we are still waiting....

His best offer to date (what he's asking for) has been....

$60M for 5 years with $30M in future money guaranteed...

I thought about it and it's just not the same as the $35M in year one on the table with a total of $63M over only four years... Not even close.

We won't even talk about leverage he would have had if the Colts were one of all those teams (3 of 32 but it's his choice) out there that's throwing money at him. He has so much leverage he's getting out there and throwing the ball around for all his options. Re-working his deal (or appearing to be willing to) with the Colts would have been done with him going though any of that as the rule prevented coaches to view player's workouts during that time.

Ask Kyle Orton and Jason Campbell how many passes they thrown for their new employers before during or since they've received their multi- million dollar checks this week (a week later than the hottest QB to hit the market since hot quarterbacks hit the market) The answer will more than likely be the same as Matt Flynn. Flynn was rumored to be waiting for Peyton to set the market for starting QBs before he signed with anyone, but Manning is taking so long finding a spot Flynn has started scheduling visits.

With all he is and all that leverage, why would Matt do that know who is hasn't proven to be and with know leverage what so ever?

Manning could have re-worked his deal... moved the $28M back to 2013, guaranteed after week 10 of the 2012 season if he appeared in X amount of games, converted his 2012 and 2013 into a signing bonus with Vet min for his base in both years. He wouldn't have a circus going on ( albeit behind closed doors) at Duke, he would have pocketed about $16M at the signing and still been a Colt.

What does he have two weeks after hos leverage gave him the pick of the league?

The desert is no longer a option, he's not going to the beach even though he has a crib in Miami... A week after my last post and you still don't have a contract signed. Chad "freaking" Henne took the prefect gig for him, Manning could have went in as the back up and still started 10 games before the season ended,

He was averaging $18.2M a year when he was under contract with the Colts, if he goes to the 9ers he might average as much as $12.8M per years if he can stay on the roster 3 years. That a big difference from what he walked away from.

Leverage is leverage....

He didn't have any when he was under contract with the Colts and not talking to them. Talking to them may not have given him any leverage with the Colts but it would have been leverage he could use right now.

Before you come back with whatever it is that's not going to change any of these facts, I'll admit Peyton Manning is the first free agent to have teams schedule visits to come see him instead of the free agent visiting the team. That's leverage but he didn't have that pre-March 13....




Once this horse IS dead, I'm going to beat it... because a certain someone is going to say I said that I won't be a dead horse.

Thinking no one will check the top of this post and clearly see it says "I don't want to" beat one.


Give a little time and watch, probably won't take as long as it's taking Manning to find another $20M a year deal.

[The Hogster]

Hogster, I'd love to hear your take on how Peyton is gaining leverage by eliminating teams before they even have a chance to bid on his services. First the Redskins, and now the Dolphins. Remember, Brandt said options create leverage, and he's knocking teams off the auction floor.

HE is eliminating teams, rather than teams eliminating him. Look up leverage. And, stay tuned for his contract details. Hint: Quit while you're behind. It only gets worse for you and 1niksder.

1niksder you know full well there was no chance the Colts were going to pay him anything close to his prior deal whether through restructure or whatever. Yet you still keep comparing reports against the contract you know the Colts weren't going to honor. DESPERATE.

We will revisit this when he signs. Peyton has even more leverage than I thought he would. He's eliminated teams, but has narrowed it down to 3. One of those teams--the Titans--has offered him a lifetime contract including front office money. In a few days, trust me, I will quote all of the BS each of you wrote.

This is really pretty sad that you guys are going further into a losing posture. I love it though.

[Deadskins]

Hogster, I'd love to hear your take on how Peyton is gaining leverage by eliminating teams before they even have a chance to bid on his services. First the Redskins, and now the Dolphins. Remember, Brandt said options create leverage, and he's knocking teams off the auction floor.

HE is eliminating teams, rather than teams eliminating him.

Exactly! which is why he's diminishing his own options. This is what I asked you to comment on. It's not important who is eliminating the options, what matters is that they are being eliminated. Remember, Brandt said options create leverage. You kept citing this as the basis for your argument, but now that Peyton is eliminating those options, he is killing his own leverage, not increasing it. The Titans are fools if they throw money at him, that they don't need to throw. With him cutting the auction down to just three bidders, he's driving down his eventual price. Remember, options create leverage. If we hadn't been bidding against the Browns for the #2 pick, do you think the Rams would have gotten as good a deal? Seems as if you do.

[The Hogster]

This is too ridiculous for words. Deadskins, not only was this discussion about Peyton's leverage with the Colts. But, even here, all Peyton needs is two teams to have leverage. Sit down.

[Irn-Bru]

Hogster, can you give a ballpark estimate of the size of the deal that would make you reconsider whether you had it right all along? For example, wouldn't you think if he signs for less than 4 years, $40 million, and $20 million guaranteed that he didn't actually have all the leverage?

Give us a ballpark figure you'd be willing to stand by. Makes it a little easier to sort out ex post chest thumping.

[1niksder]

Hogster, can you give a ballpark estimate of the size of the deal that would make you reconsider whether you had it right all along? For example, wouldn't you think if he signs for less than 4 years, $40 million, and $20 million guaranteed that he didn't actually have all the leverage?

Give us a ballpark figure you'd be willing to stand by. Makes it a little easier to sort out ex post chest thumping.

He can't do that until AFTER Peyton signs. then a year later he say he told us so. He had enough leverage to not even talk to the Colts according to Hogster. He stated that he'd get a boatload of money from one of the many teams that were going to line up to offer it to him.

He said he could do better than what was left on the table and now he's talking about a incentive laden contract that will protect whoever signs him.

IB the short answer is.... no he can't

[Irn-Bru]

Well, if he does, it will make it a lot easier for me to take his posts seriously. So far you are the only one talking numbers and concrete terms.

[The Hogster]

Hogster, can you give a ballpark estimate of the size of the deal that would make you reconsider whether you had it right all along? For example, wouldn't you think if he signs for less than 4 years, $40 million, and $20 million guaranteed that he didn't actually have all the leverage?

Give us a ballpark figure you'd be willing to stand by. Makes it a little easier to sort out ex post chest thumping.

Sure. I think his new deal will (1) be well over any amount that the Colts would have given him in a restructured deal, assuming that either party wanted to even do that which I don't think they did, and (2) I think a good ballpark for his new deal will be somewhere in the average of $15M per year with opportunities to push that number close to the $18M per year average he had under his old deal. So if he signs for 3 years , I'd expect the number to be 3 years $45M in real money but more like a 3 year $60M contract.

Put simply I think he gets close to the $18M per year range. How they structure it is anyone's guess. But one

[Irn-Bru]

I find it hard to believe that he'll get $18 million a year. I guess we'll see.

[1niksder]

I find it hard to believe that he'll get $18 million a year. I guess we'll see.

That's been my point from day one.

If he would have talked to the cap strapped Colts while still under his old contract he wouldn't have lost ANY money. He would have had to move money around and being who he is would have gotten more in the end because they needed the cap space.

Even if he gets a average of $15M per it won't be the kind of cash he would have gotten by reducing his $28M option bonus into a option bonus that paid out 3/43 of it at a later date and 1/4 converted and combined with his 2012 and 2014 base salaries into a signing bonus. What he'll get is another option bonus that will put him in the same situation a year or two from now, along with a lot of money tied to reaching performance goals.

IB we know you read everything so it's obvious to you whose argument and projections are changing AGAIN but you actually got numbers out of him (no doubt they came from google), like I said time will tell.

[Irn-Bru]

IB we know you read everything

lol. The all-seeing eye.

[KazooSkinsFan]

That's been my point from day one.

If he would have talked to the cap strapped Colts while still under his old contract he wouldn't have lost ANY money. He would have had to move money around and being who he is would have gotten more in the end because they needed the cap space.

Makes no sense to me. Even if he "lessens" the cap space, he's still going to be a big hit. To get all his money it's still have to be for 10 large plus a year and cover years. Why pay him that much and use that much cap when they need to get younger and build around their QB of the future? They sign Peyton to a 3+ year contract to start sitting as soon as Luck's ready? Why would they do that?

[1niksder]

That's been my point from day one.

If he would have talked to the cap strapped Colts while still under his old contract he wouldn't have lost ANY money. He would have had to move money around and being who he is would have gotten more in the end because they needed the cap space.

Makes no sense to me. Even if he "lessens" the cap space, he's still going to be a big hit. To get all his money it's still have to be for 10 large plus a year and cover years. Why pay him that much and use that much cap when they need to get younger and build around their QB of the future? They sign Peyton to a 3+ year contract to start sitting as soon as Luck's ready? Why would they do that?

He wouldn't have been a hit has hard as the one they took when they cut him. The restructure of this year's base alone would have made the hit they took $6M+ lighter

They would simply be moving the bulk of the option money back a year or two for cap purposes and paying two years base salary upfront, the Colts were are hurting for cap space now but will be OK next season and the cap will jump to around $150M in 2015. Releasing Manning after next season as a post June 1st cut would have pushed the remaining pro-rated money left into 2015.

[Deadskins]

This is too ridiculous for words. Deadskins, not only was this discussion about Peyton's leverage with the Colts. But, even here, all Peyton needs is two teams to have leverage. Sit down.

Dude, even you can't really believe that crap. Any leverage he had with the Colts was contingent on his getting similar money in FA. Now you're saying Brandt had it wrong all along? And I'm the one who's argument is ridiculous? Have you read your own posts?

[The Hogster]

This is too ridiculous for words. Deadskins, not only was this discussion about Peyton's leverage with the Colts. But, even here, all Peyton needs is two teams to have leverage. Sit down.

Dude, even you can't really believe that crap. Any leverage he had with the Colts was contingent on his getting similar money in FA. Now you're saying Brandt had it wrong all along? And I'm the one who's argument is ridiculous? Have you read your own posts?

[Deadskins]

Exactly!

[KazooSkinsFan]

He wouldn't have been a hit has hard as the one they took when they cut him. The restructure of this year's base alone would have made the hit they took $6M+ lighter

They would simply be moving the bulk of the option money back a year or two for cap purposes and paying two years base salary upfront, the Colts were are hurting for cap space now but will be OK next season and the cap will jump to around $150M in 2015. Releasing Manning after next season as a post June 1st cut would have pushed the remaining pro-rated money left into 2015.

Fair enough on this year. But they blow and they are about to have a rookie QB. Why not get him off the books now? If they don't, the past cap will have to count at some point and if they pay him tens of millions more that will have to hit the cap at some point too. And what are they going to do with Peyton AND Luck sitting on the bench?

I made the same point to Deadskins when he wanted to sign Peyton and Griffin, we have to pick one direction not two. And we're better then the Colts. Peyton is win now, Luck is win in 2-3 years. If it's win now, they don't have enough talent and they are about to use the #1 pick not getting better (regarding win now). If it's win later, they are about to spend tens of millions more on a 35 year old QB that will have to hit the cap at some point.

If to your point the Colts wanted to spread out the cap hit, it seems they'd want to sign Peyton to a small contract to spread out the hit. They wouldn't give him the tens of millions he's losing to spread it out when he's 35 and there just aren't that many years to spread.

I do agree he should have talked to the Colts. Not saying he did or didn't, don't know. But I don't see why the Colts wouldn't say we love you babe, but bye bye. It's the reality of where the Colts are now.

[Deadskins]

I don't see why the Colts wouldn't say we love you babe, but bye bye.

They pretty much did.